Raising children in the fog

[zad7242]

Just curious if anyone raised children in the midst of coping with PD spouse? Specifically, any special measures to protect children, regrets, effects on their health and own relationships as they became teens or adults? I'm a dad of a brood of small kids all preteen and younger and worry so much about the effects of all the screaming, wild mood swings etc, hearing their dad is the worst kind of human etc. thank you!

[square]

1) Do your part to not add to the chaos. Learn noJADE, Medium Chill/Gray Rock, and make a habit of exiting (whether with or without kids depending on which option is more stable for them) when MC/GR is mot enough.

2) You can validate their feelings without parental alienation. "Hey, kiddo, are you doing okay? Sorry that outing to the playground didn't turn out so well. I would love to try to go again soon." Or if they get yelled at for something that you consider to be problematic, "Hey, I just wanted you to know that it's okay that you were upset earlier. It's normal to have feelings in that situation and Indon't think you did anything wrong." (Different from "Mommy should not have yelled at you for crying when she cancelled your playdate.")

As for the parental alienation you are facing, that is extremely hard and imho one of the most toxic moves a PD can make.

[SonofThunder]

Hi zad,

My kids were raised in my home alongside their PD mother. My kids are adults now and know me for who I am and who I have always been, not what they have heard about me along the way, as it did not align with their experiences with me. 

My advice is to always interact with your kids the exact same way you would if you suddenly became a solo parent; your children 100% having you alone with no spouse around.  That is the mindset I adopted, even being married to their PD mother for decades. 

Your kids may experience "screaming, wild mood swings etc, hearing their dad is the worst kind of human etc" from your spouse, but with you they will experience calm, stability and no negative comments about the other parent/spouse.

Imo make the long game your daily game. 

Enjoy your kiddos!

SoT

[Lookin 2 B Free]

Yes.  Can't recommend highly enough "Raising Resilient Children with a NPD BPD Parent."  The author, Fjelstad, is well known and highly regarded around here for her prior book "Stop Caretaking the NPD BPD." The new book is full of good advice for coparenting when the other parent has a PD.  Tells you when you need to steer clear from standard coparenting and family therapy advice tactics, (some of which make no sense with a PD in the mix).

[SonofThunder]

Yes.  Can't recommend highly enough "Raising Resilient Children with a NPD BPD Parent."  The author, Fjelstad, is well known and highly regarded around here for her prior book "Stop Caretaking the NPD BPD." The new book is full of good advice for coparenting when the other parent has a PD.  Tells you when you need to steer clear from standard coparenting and family therapy advice tactics, (some of which make no sense with a PD in the mix).

Lookin 2B Free,

Thank you for that info.  I had no idea Fjelstad had a new book and although my kids are married adults, I know a couple younger parents who are struggling with a PD spouse and this resource may be very helpful. 

SoT

[SeaBreeze]

Everything Square and SoT said. In our family, the car became the "Safe Zone" away from the spouse-and-the-house. Until after a few years of that, I finally stood up to then-H and told him "I am no longer packing 3 kids up to go driving when you're in a bad mood. There's 4 of us and one of you. If you're in a bad mood, YOU can go out for a drive!" With that being said, the car still remained a safe space, separate from PD insanity, particularly during school pickup when the kids and I could just connect, discuss their day both good and bad, go grab a milkshake or stop by the park. It helped to create that space, to BE that safe parent, for both the kids and myself. I hope you have, or can make, such a space as well.

[MaxedOut]

SeaBreeze - Oof, that is some entitlement. I have been the one having to leave in part due to STBXw's disabilities, phobias/anxieties, and basically safety if she's dysregulated. And my vehicle was also a calmind safe space. I ended up turning of location sharing after a few months because it made it not feel so safe and/or made me worry about her feedback from seeing where I'd go (various parking lots, LOL, but could have been interpreted as cheating or something). But taking 3 kids with you!?! I am glad you stood up on that one.

[zad7242]

Thank you all for the sound advice and encouragement! I've really seen a difference with noJADE and letting go of my pride to defend myself from falsities.

I'm saddened because my children are still too young to understand. Although my wife has, to her credit, told them "mommy's feelings are bigger then most people's and I'm working on it" they pretty much think if mommy is always this upset at daddy he must be doing something majorly wrong. Two of my children both under age 10, are my step-children, so even more aligned with their mother. Sometimes after a major blow up from my wife, my step-daughter or son will say to me "dad, you have to start doing better."

[SonofThunder]

Sometimes after a major blow up from my wife, my step-daughter or son will say to me "dad, you have to start doing better."

Zad, imo that 👆🏼 is an opportunity to creatively teach the younger generation an important lesson about 'caretaking' others, by converting that kind of scene between you and their mother into something that may occur to them in their own lives, such as their peers at school, neighborhood kids or in groups they may belong, such as clubs or sports.

Caretaking (Fjelstad's wonderful book) is like erosion; over time slowly turning an easily crossed gully into a deep chasm and the now-formed caretaker, and the children that model that behavior, eventually finds themselves deep inside the difficult pit of habitualness. 

For your kids, they may have been conditioned by their mom's habits and their dad's reactions, to think that mommy's big feelings are caused by you/others, when the truth may be that mommy's big feelings are similar to a bully at school or a short-fused snappy dog they may encounter in their own relationships outside your home. 

Just because someone expresses feelings that are "bigger than most people" does not automatically mean that those feelings are ok or that someone/something else provoked those expressions or can prevent those expressions.  If the person with "big feelings" claims to be aware of themselves, then that should be the last time those "feelings" become out of control, not a repeated excuse. 

You give your wife "credit", but imo she has creatively and covertly switched positions on the Karpman drama triangle, shuffling from the persecutor role to victimhood and moved you to the persecutor role.  Your kids then take the rescuer role by their attempting to advise you to act differently to prevent mommy's outbursts.  Imo, they are becoming normalized to the drama triangle because of your wife's covert role assigning/switching and watching you two dance together over and over.

If your kids had 'big feelings' repetitively, do they get to blame their siblings or their parent?  I would bet money the answer is no, that the child is expected to practice better self-control. Parents don't get excused from the lessons children are expected to learn. 

Zad, I was sadly a master caretaker and I allowed my caretaking to become a habit. It fully enabled my PDw a very wide berth to do whatever she wanted because I would placate the scene and try and shield my kids from her blow-ups.  When I stopped caretaking (thanks Fjelstad!), my kids then saw by my new example, that the raw truth of their mother's over-the-top behavior was her own to manage and that their dad had changed to someone who didn't dance around that invisible role triangle any longer.  I used the toolbox to properly position myself so that my wife's behaviors stood isolated to her 100% ownership, not her dance partner's responsibility. She found herself dancing alone with her behaviors for the last decade+ of our marriage when I learned not to caretake, but rather just care-give my wife (their mother) in a proper, balanced, self-controlled manner fitting to a spouse and equal co-parent. 

Imo, kids need to learn this difficult truth in their own lives; they need to be 100% responsible in self control of their own actions and reactions, just like everyone else and that sometimes, bullies and snarling dogs do those things to keep the truth about themselves hidden behind the big emotions they project on others.  You have the power as a dad to live as an example to your kids regarding this powerful lesson.  I wish I knew earlier when my kids were younger, like your children. 

SoT

[zad7242]

Thank you, SoT,

I'm going to re-read and re-read again your response in the coming days (and then read Fjelstad) as there is a lot to let marinate in my heart. My wife likes to say that her responses are the predictable responses of an abuse victim who finally has had enough and starts blowing up. Except they began literally on our wedding night and those responses have also been aimed at her family and mine. She thinks that because someone else pushed her to her limits, that means she is not responsible for how she responds and therefore does not need help. I've tried to use the analogy with her that if someone hurt her physically, she would still go to the doctor even though it was not her fault. Psychotherapists would go out of business if only people who were the complete cause of their own pain went to therapy.   

[SonofThunder]

My wife likes to say that her responses are the predictable responses of an abuse victim who finally has had enough and starts blowing up. Except they began literally on our wedding night and those responses have also been aimed at her family and mine.

She thinks that because someone else pushed her to her limits, that means she is not responsible for how she responds and therefore does not need help. 

Zad, maybe consider two opinions.

First, PD's use the classic trait of projection, in which they accuse others of doing the very things THEY are doing. Is your wife projecting onto you, her family and your family?  Obviously "began literally on our wedding night.." is a key point you make.

https://outofthefog.website/top-100-trait-blog/2015/11/4/projection

Second, the second part I quoted above in your reply, oozes of victimhood. I advise you to Google search and study the Steven Karpman triangle.  The triangle is key to recognizing the drama dance that occurs and Fjelstads book, Stop Caretaking the Borderline and Narcissist, will help to fully understand the roles as well.  You play a crucial role in the triangle, as her drama dance partner as she desires you to switch roles and 'caretake' her, because she cannot emotionally control herself. 

Imo a PD's goal is to always end up dancing the role of the victim, but they have to play the actual role of the persecutor and then project (flip the script) the persecutor role inaccurately onto others (switch triangle roles) so they can be the desired victim.  There is a trophy 🏆 for PD's in the victim role and trophies provide fuel for a PD, at the expense of others (the true victims).

Imo your kids are watching the steady role-switching triangle dances and learning to normalize those behaviors and roles.  I did the same in my FOO household and as an adult, modeled my caretaking mother and married a covert, female version of my PDfather.  It's what I thought was 'normal'.  You have the power, albeit difficult, to end the cycle in the generations of your immediate family, by becoming a properly balanced care-giver, as a husband, father and family member (regardless of your wife's behaviors which are out of your control).

Your children need you to model someone who is not residing as a drama triangle dance partner. Learn to stop dancing using proper self-protective boundaries and the other excellent tools in the Out of the FOG toolbox and also ending your 'caretaking' behaviors, settling in for proper and balanced caregiving (which imo won't be enough for your wife, so always use the toolbox to deal with her frustration).

In encouragement,

SoT

[zad7242]

Oh yes, there is an awful lot of projection going on. During one of those moments of clarity she has, she told me exactly what you said, "Everything I accuse you of, I have done myself." For example, she accuses me of lying about my social life or lack thereof while we were dating (we were a long-distance relationship) and how much money I had from my first wife's life insurance, while she later admitted to lying to me about abusing narcotics and having an alcohol addiction.

My wife does flip back and forth between the persecutor and victim. I don't see her as the rescuer very much. She needs me to know she is always making sacrifices but never insists that I don't try to solve issues myself.

Notwithstanding the very real sacrifices she makes all day as a stay-at-home mom, she can never allow me to be the one making a sacrifice. If I sent her on a beach vacation by herself as a break, she would come back saying how bad traffic was on the way and how uncomfortable the hotel bed was and how relaxing it must have been for me to lounge around the house all day with the kids. This has actually happened, so no ifs about it. Her expectation for life is that she can always expect to be a victim:  "bad stuff always happen to me. I'm the one who always gets the undercooked meal at the restaurant, etc etc., this stuff has just been happening all my life" 

Looking forward to learning more and thanks again!   

[IsleOfSong]

Although my wife has, to her credit, told them "mommy's feelings are bigger then most people's and I'm working on it" they pretty much think if mommy is always this upset at daddy he must be doing something majorly wrong.

Now would be an excellent time to teach your kids that while mommy's feelings may be "bigger" than others, the feelings of the rest of the family are just as "big" in terms of importance. Mommy's feelings are mommy's issue to handle. Be sure to tell them this about 100 times, at minimum, because once won't move the needle.

Listen, there's no easy, clear path to parenting with a PD. SOT's advice, in particular, is spot on. A keen understanding of that drama triangle may not fully set you free, but it'll go a long way to helping you tailor your responses so that you're not bouncing around that wacky triangle with her. Fjelstad's "Stop Caretaking" book is fantastic; I haven't seen the follow-up, but it's probably equally strong.

Another tactic I have found to be helpful (in addition to noJADE) is to challenge myself to make "I" statements when my wife confronts me with her complaints. Generally speaking with PDs, any retorts with "you" in them will pull you into the muck with them and will just be fuel for their victimhood. Let's say, for example, your wife whines or makes some snide comment about you spending a day with your parents instead of with her:

WRONG: You always lose your cool whenever I make plans to visit my parents. You don't support me!
BETTER: I want to see my parents, so that's what I'm doing. <full stop>

Just curious, has Mommy started to single out one of the kids as a scapegoat, one who frequently misbehaves or is contributing to her having "big feelings" in the form of outbursts, silent treatments to them, etc.? Because I imagine something like that is going to happen. Ask me how I know... :-/

[zad7242]

Thank you, IsleofSong!!

I really like your comment about other people's feelings being just as important, even if they aren't expressed as dramatically.

And yes, from the beginning of our marriage (almost 4 years now) she has had particular difficulty with my son from my previous marriage because he reminds her so much of me (He is lazy, lies etc). He is 6 years old.

[IsleOfSong]

And yes, from the beginning of our marriage (almost 4 years now) she has had particular difficulty with my son from my previous marriage because he reminds her so much of me (He is lazy, lies etc). He is 6 years old.

I'm getting the chills reading this — my son was always accused of those same things at that age by my PD wife. I can't tell you how corrosive it is for a child to internalize those messages. Please read Fjelstad soon — it's essential that he can depend on you to be the solid parent as you build the strength to resist her toxic nonsense.

[Lookin 2 B Free]

Just a reminder that the more recent Fjelstad book, "Raising Resilient Children with a NPD BPD Parent" is much more targeted to your questions.  I read her "Stop Caretaking" book years ago which was also excellent.  But I went to the "Raising Resilient ..." when I was struggling with the issues you're talking about and found it especially helpful.  Good luck and keep us posted!