How can I trust my sister

[JLS]

My sister and I did not speak for 20 years.  When I was younger my sister would engage in mean girl behaviour with my mother.  Despite asking what was wrong, no one ever explained it to me.  Anyway fast forward to now and after a divorce my sister moved near me and reignited contact.  At that time I was NC with my mother.  I did wonder about her being a flying monkey but decided to meet up and see if any relationship was viable.  Everything seemed to be fine although I did think it was weird that she has not once addressed any issue between us, why we didn't speak for 20 years she just said "oh we shouldn't leave it so long next time", or the fact that I do not know any of my nieces or nephews.  They are now adults and I have never met them. To me it's like the twilight zone, it all seems a little weird.

We have now been in contact a couple of years. There have been red flags and now I am not sure.  I don't want to be too quick to cut people out of my life and end up with no one. I have found that there were a few conversations I had had with my mother prior to NC where I told her how I felt.  I have found that over time my sister will randomly bring up something happening with her kids that will somehow come back to stuff I said to our mother.  Such as I had referred to my mother as feeling like the black sheep of the family.  So when my cousin died recently my sister told me that our mother had said that they may not have a funeral for the cousin as he was the black sheep of the family so why would anyone want to waste money on him because he was the blacksheep of the family.  Its this type of thing.  Plausible deniability type stuff.

I said how the silent treatment was bad and then the next time I saw her she said how she had being giving her step daughter the silent treatment because of a fight.  She was happy the step daughter apologized to her.  I felt sick in the stomach at this.

Lastly just before Xmas she told me how the whole family was getting together for Christmas which is fine.  Then she went on to tell me how our father had said that a family friend was overweight so she hasn't got much going for her. I'm overweight.  Then she went on to say how her kid was feeling uneasy of being around our parents because they are slightly overweight and how our parents judge overweight people so much.

After this last visit I spiralled down pretty heavily.  My sister has been open about her own issues with our parents being judgemental with her but when I have told her that they insult me or don't like me, she has asked me if I am sure about that and not misreading the situation. She also said that our mother was saying she doesn't understand what is wrong with our relationship (meaning my relationship with my mother).  I have always known that the two of them talk about me.  My sister tells me that she doesn't tell our mother anything I say however then she is saying that our mother is saying this other stuff so some conversation is happening somewhere. I have been open with my mother about my issues so anything said to my sister is nothing that I haven't said directly to my mother which is why I simply laughed when my sister said my mother is now claiming ignorance about our issues.  I have only spoken about some issues with my sister to see if she is aware of the family dynamics, in some ways she seems to be aware however in other ways she seems to be playing the game.  My parents give her money and I feel she is appeasing them simply to have access to that money. For instance, they recently bought her a car and there is an inheritance to think of.

I had said to her that I didn't really need to talk about our parents but I just find that every time I see her one or two comments are slipped in, those comments will somehow be some issue I have had with our parents but they are framed in such a way that they are always regarding other people but I am now feeling a little uncertain.  I was so happy to reunite but now I am wondering if she is still that mean girl that never grew up.  How do I handle this?  How do I know if I am accurate in my fears or simply spiralling because my parents still manage to trip me up.  I just don't know if I have removed one trap and fallen into another.  Part of me wonders if my sister enjoys the drama of talking to my mother then me.  In her younger days she seemed to enjoy putting me down, I am now wondering if she is still the same person.  How do I know?  The fog feels thick. I am back to limited contact with my parents, a couple of text a year however I am seeing my sister once a month.  Has anyone had a similar situation?

[walking on broken glass]

Hi JLS,
I am so sorry about the situation with your sister. It does sound to me that, since she is in contact with your mum and since she brings up your name to her and her name to you, that they definitely have conversations about you. It does not matter what her end game is. What she does is bad for you because she is trying to triangulate. Maybe she is not exactly the same person she was but her comments are hurtful and they cause you pain. So what do you get out of this relationship? I don't think it matters so much whether she does this on purpose and she enjoys the drama, as this is something you might never be able to know for sure. What matters though is how she makes you feel. Have you doubted yourself in this way with other people you are associating? Have you questioned their motives and ruminated about the discussions you had had? If not, you know what a secure and safe relationship is like, and this is not it. Maybe you don't need to make big decisions right now but you can step back a little and get some distance. See how it feels. Trust your gut! It is definitely a red flag that your sister approached you out of the blue without any acknowledgement of the years of distance and her role in the family dynamics.

[Rebel13]

JLS, this is good advice from walking on broken glass, and I second it! I understand wanting to have your sister in your life. I feel that way about my brother even though he's in contact with my self-absorbed emotionally immature mom, when I'm not. I have low to minimal contact with him and I know how hard it can be to negotiate those boundaries. I think wobg's question about the value of the relationship to you is a good one to consider. You can also consider using the gray rock/medium chill techniques (see articles in Toolbox section of site) when your sister brings up your parents during your interactions. That's what I do with my brother -- when he mentions anything about my mom (usually via text) I either don't respond to the information, or I say "Thank you for telling me" (if it is something like she's having a medical issue). That's it. In person, you might need to have some topics ready so you can change the subject immediately -- "Thanks for telling me that mom has a doctor's appointment. That reminds me, I meant to ask you about (something completely unrelated to your parents, your sister sniping about others, etc.)."

You can do this with other topics you don't feel like talking about as well, for example, when she does her "plausible deniability" stuff, you can say, "Huh. Oh, did you watch the football game the other day? What did you think when XX happened?"

Once you stop responding to the family stuff, you could see what else your relationship with her is made of. Are there good things about it? Do you have other things to talk about, like common interests, hobbies? Does she do interesting, constructive stuff that you like hearing about? Does she listen when you talk about things that are important to you that are unrelated to your/her family? Does she remember what's important to you and bring it up again/ask you questions about it later? These questions would also be really interesting to think about in trying to figure out the value of this relationship for you.

I also just wanted to relate/give you sympathy about:
1. the weirdness of not knowing your sister's kids. I saw my youngest nephew a year and a half ago, just after he graduated from college. Before that, the last time I saw him, he was 2. The others I have seen on Zoom once or twice in the past 20 years. I would not recognize them if they walked past me on the street. It is really so strange.
2. the weight judgment stuff. Weight issues were HUGE for my mom and a major way that she criticized me and made me feel like crap my entire childhood, and probably one of the major reasons I was the scapegoat, since I was fat and my brother wasn't. I am STILL working on all that in my 50s. So, I just wanted to say I'm sorry that you have to struggle with that too.

I'm wishing you luck and hoping to hear more of your thoughts as you consider the relationship and maybe institute some changes to make it suit you better.

[JLS]

Thank you Walking on Broken Glass.  I have shut down some triangulation my mother was trying to do through my sister and I was under the impression that my sister only mentioned me in passing such as when asked what she had been up to 'oh I caught up for coffee with JLS' which is normal.  When she said that our mother had said she doesn't know what our issues were, that seemed to me to be a deeper conversation which was had.  My sister has confirmed other conversations they have had regarding our relationship even though my mother will not utter one word about it to me.  With me my mother refuses to discuss anything.

They are really interesting questions you raise. I don't doubt myself this way with others but then my family trigger me, so I am not sure if my sister is triggering me although not intentionally.

There have been a couple of things she has asked which for me have been red flags.  She asked if I was in therapy and she mentioned a particular self help thing she was doing which was something I had mentioned to my mother a while back.  I think I have spiralled so hard as I opened up and talked about some of the self help things I have been doing. I then felt exposed. I know one of my fleas is not trusting people easily and sometimes reading things negatively too easily, I am working on that.

I think what you say is really useful, there is not much point to trying to work out her motives, I will not really know unless she tells me, it really does come down to how I feel.  The relationship gives me a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach.  I am not sure I can trust her. I think you are right that I need to step back a little, mostly emotionally and perhaps a little more distance.  I won't make any major decisions now though.

[JLS]

Thanks Rebel13.  I had been going really well with not mentioning the parents but the last time we saw each other a ton of stuff came up.  I guess I just feel really exposed. I do agree that perhaps medium chill is the way to go for now.  Keep the topics neutral. 

There have been many other things that have come up which have been good. But there have been one too many times she has brought something up which I feel are to confirm a belief about me.  For example she has implied relationship problems with her partner, asked me directly who I was friends with, mentioned she can't be bothered shaving her legs which I instantly felt was to see if I responded with 'oh me too', I didn't respond.  I doubted this as she has comes across as being very interested in her looks ie botox etc. My mother has painted me as this depressed, friendless person and my relationship having problems. Some of the questions just feel like probes to confirm our mothers' opinions. She even asked me directly if I was doing therapy.

Thank you for your sympathy.  The nieces and nephews thing is just bizarre to me.  I also wouldn't recognise them on the street, they are strangers.  It just seems so weird that we are having this relationship but I am still on the outside of her life.

The weight one is huge for me as well.  My parents criticised me heavily as well.  Looks are extremely important to them and my sister appears to be following along with this.  Just even bringing up weight in general was like oh here we go again, this is the next innocent thing being brought up which I am being insulted over and she is pretending its normal conversation.  My mother-in-law did that a lot.  She would pick something that I did and then say that her friend did that thing and how stupid her friend was etc, plausible deniability.  The old well I wasn't talking about you, I was talking about my friend.  My mother could do this as well.  A passive aggressive put down.  I have noticed that my friends do not do this.

Overall yes I might start with some small changes in the new year.  I am starting to think about my own life more and things I want to start doing for me which will bring more joy into my life.  Being healthier is one because I love walking and I am researching some long walks to start planning to tackle.  I also have some travel planned.  I have wanted to distance myself from the families drama and just enjoy my life without getting stuck in the muck.  I guess at the moment I feel a little stuck however these replies have given me a new perspective.  I cannot know what her motives are.  I can only make the changes in me I am wanting to make and see if the relationship is one which brings something positive in my life.  I guess if the coming months continue to bring confusion, I will have my answer.

Thank you for taking the time to respond.  In the confusion, in the fog it can be hard to see, so I appreciate the clarity given.

[walking on broken glass]

I think I have spiralled so hard as I opened up and talked about some of the self help things I have been doing. I then felt exposed.

I sympathise so much with that. It is frightening to even have the suspicion that personal stuff you shared is not safe. Since this happened so many times in the past with our PD families, we are taking every precaution that it doesn't happen again. Just remember that you are not helpless and they can't harm you in the same way anymore. You have knowledge and strength and a voice. You have the freedom and the will to walk out whenever you want.

The weight stuff is also triggering for me. My family was always very controlling in that respect, commenting on any change of weight, criticising gain, and being disparaging of overweight people. My dad would always reprimand me at the beach for not making an effort to have a beach perfect body like other young girls. To this day I feel self conscious about wearing a bikini. I am really sorry you have to deal with this too. It's not an imaginary slight, it's very real.

Taking some distance and using all the techniques that Rebel mentioned sound good ideas. Use the space to reevaluate the relationship and see how you feel.

[Lookin 2 B Free]

Hi, JLS.  This sounds familiar to me, too.  The family member will be very friendly and nice but then these things are slipped in occasionally which bring up hurt or shame.  I got caught up in the trap of "Well, I don't think they're trying to be hurtful and I haven't been able to heal from being so sensitive, so ..."  as if I can't protect myself if I judge that the hurt is more "my fault" than theirs.  I finally realized I needed to drop that.

FWIW, I don't think this person is consciously trying to hurt me and they do want me in their life.  But even if that's true and they're not aware, they keep bringing up stuff that makes me feel bad.  I almost never have that happen with friends and non-family members. I went VVLC so now we rarely talk, and it's a relief.  Whenever the old thought reappears "You're being unreasonable and unfair," I answer it with "It's okay to keep my distance from people I feel unsafe around,*no matter the reason.*" I've practically made that a mantra.   The fact that I feel unsafe is reason enough, I believe.

[JLS]

Thanks everyone.  I think I have hit a hurdle because as my relationship with my mother has deteriorated my mothers response has been just a total non interest, a disregarding of it, if I had to say how it feels it's something like I feel she is saying "I don't really need you in my life". Watching my sister has just highlighted this.  At this point there is a giving up on my part. It has been a set back for me and I've struggled lately with it.

Thanks everyone I appreciate the advice.  I will be busy in the coming month so I might give myself some space from my sister.  I don't think I'll share anything with her about my healing in the future and I am no longer going to get into any conversations regarding our parents.  I will then see how things go.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi JLS,

Really great advice from all the posts here. My understanding about going back into the fray after going NC with narcissistic family members, is that we have to know what is safe and what isn't safe. Which of course, is it's own puzzle since we may think that sharing something is safe, and then learn that no, they mishandled that too.

My understanding of LC and VLC is that it can work, if we are clear on what we will and won't share, and if the other person accepts the limits we've set. In my years on the boards I have seen the whole range, and in my own life, FOO who are so immature that when I set a limit on what I'd share with them, it was "unacceptable" to them and so they acted cold, perhaps that is what your mom is now doing. Unless we let them in and tell them all sorts of things or let them do all sorts of things for us they are not happy with the more 'superficial' dynamic that we try to set up as VLC. Others are ok with it, and I think those tend to be the personality types who want to skate on the surface of life anyways, so our superficial low contact with them suits them.

To my mind, LC or VLC doesn't just refer to how often you have contact but also how much you tell them about your life.

Unfortunately what many of us on the boards here learn, is that our relatives are not interested in digging in to do any work to undo all the family drama and triangulating. Many of us used LC or VLC to get away from the games. So then if we insist that we won't get involved with the games anymore (which is what LC is signalling) - we are basically told "no thank you" to our offer of low contact. Unless they can mess with us and play their games with us, they are not interested in us. And that was hard for me to realize but I eventually realized that I was never going to get anywhere with the FOO who had that much drama and disorder in their personality type. It would always be about running a game on me.

You can use your life to figure out which chess move will get you out of the corner they've put you in, or you can walk away from the game and use your time to learn about the healthy ways you want to live your own life. I am now convinced that had I stayed in contact with my FOO, my entire life would be spent feeling like a pawn in their game. I was very careful about who I stayed in contact with, and very careful about what I shared with them.

Trees

[Call Me Cordelia]

"Such as I had referred to my mother as feeling like the black sheep of the family.  So when my cousin died recently my sister told me that our mother had said that they may not have a funeral for the cousin as he was the black sheep of the family so why would anyone want to waste money on him because he was the blacksheep of the family.  It's this type of thing.  Plausible deniability type stuff."

 Even if that somehow was not a dig at you, which I believe it most likely WAS, that's just such an awful horrible thing to say!!! I've heard a lot but that's just outrageously vicious and beastly.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Apologies for the extra large text that was an error somehow!

[LemonLime]

I can so relate to this thread.
And Trees, your insight is valuable to me, in terms of the chess game analogy.
It truly feels like a choice.....spend my time playing their game (which is essentially all-consuming), or live my own life, mostly apart from them.
It's not been an easy choice, but it has been simple.  If that makes sense.
Heartbreaking, really.  But less and less heartbreaking as time goes by with me LC.

[JLS]

Trees you are so right, do I want to stay stuck in the corner or simply get back to my own life.  It's funny that you say this as someone on this forum (I apologise I forget who) suggested a book "The Let Them Theory".  I have just finished it and have started practising it in everyday life.  For me it has been a game changer. It has had such a positive impact on me.  For me, it works.

I have spent so many years feeling self-doubt and fearing their opinions and mocking.  After reading this book something just clicked, and I realised it's time to turn my attention back to my life rather than continuing to try to analyse them and their behaviour.  In fact, the 'let me' part of the book was really helpful in focusing me back to how I want to respond to certain situations more in line with my values.

As I am focusing more back on where I want my life to go, I am starting to make plans for things I want to do.  I am feeling lighter in the heart.  They have their life and can do what they want with it, I feel free to do what I want with my life.  Whatever their opinion will be on that, its theirs and theirs alone. In saying that too much time around people like this isn't so good for the heart and so I plan to keep some distance but I am done hiding my life away because I fear being mocked or crying over comments they have made.  That's the brilliant thing with 'let them', they can have their opinion, I don't have to agree with it or take it on board and taking a deep breath, I feel I now have the tools available to respond in the way I want to rather than how I have in the past which is a feeling of my emotions being played with and me falling for it every single time.

I feel more solid around my boundaries of VLC and I am more sure of how much I want to put into these relationships moving forward.  I no longer have any expectations that anything will change with them. I have also let go of my own expectations and desires around the relationship. My focus is now on my own life.

[JLS]

Call me Cordelia - I know right, who says these things.

I have come to realise though that I'm no longer going to take on the idea of that role as the black sheep in the family.  No more, I've resigned, retired, quit.  I have cast myself out of that role and all roles within the family. I'm not going to see myself as the excluded one or the rejected one or the mocked one, none of it, I did that to myself but no more. I am simply going to be JLS and be me.  Whatever they want to make of that is up to them, what they think is none of my business.

[Rebel13]

a book "The Let Them Theory".  I have just finished it and have started practising it in everyday life.  For me it has been a game changer. It has had such a positive impact on me.  For me, it works.

This is fantastic! I read a sample of the book on Google after it was mentioned here, and I could see the power of the ideas. I'm so glad you are putting them into practice for your peace of mind and to make your life better!