Hoarding isn’t a personality type

[Prototypian]

But it sure manifests itself in strong ways.   For my OCPDW it's truly about fear and control.   Those lead to irreconcilable blocks.   My spouse can live amidst any level of mess even sleeping atop piles but the fear of discarding something that either has meaning or could be used and is wasted by getting rid of it is one of her strongest overriding traits. 

Over the years I've also noticed a triumphant sort of what I term "Facebook" solves that she does when she learns of someone in her network and then can be a hero by delivering the desired item.   It doesn't matter what the item is.  She just loves the thrill of supporting someone.

I think part of the fear of getting rid of something is that if it's all given away to goodwill or trashed then someday someone might need it and she won't have the thing anymore to meet that need.

I'm really the opposite.  I have no problem saying "sorry bro, I gave all that away last year, it's all gone".  The tough thing isn't the things like photo albums or tax documents; it's things like the rubber feet that came off an old lamp that no longer works.   Yes the rubber feet do have a clear purpose and yes they could be used but the truth is they aren't.  Same thing with iPhone boxes and huge stacks of trash bags.

It's almost a secondary issue outside of just the ocpd and anger.

[Defiantdaughter1]

My husband hoards, but not as severely as you have described in previous posts over time. It seems to be part of OCD. His OCD isn't a personality disorder, but it's enough to drive me crazy. I don't know if it's fear. I think he doesn't have the ability to organize because he procrastinates until there is so much piled up that it's overwhelming to him. I also think he has ADD, even though the psychiatrist said he doesn't.

[Prototypian]

More weird hoarding.   Again, my spouse is uOCPD.   She is severe and one rule she has internally is "never waste".   We live in a southern state in the US and this is the time of year that leaves are bagged and set out to the street.  There are some "recycling" and some suburban garden gardens programs for composting but the vast majority of the leaves get put out.   She can't handle it.   She begs me to pick up the bags she sees around town for "composting" which usually results in dozens of giant garbage bags rotting around the yard.   She truly feels that this is a crime that should not occur and I actually feel sorry that it's so paralyzing to her.

[Poison Ivy]

Do you decline to pick up the bags?

[Prototypian]

Do you decline to pick up the bags?

I don't. I get worn down by it.  She doesn't give up at all.   That's one thing I've learned about ocpd and standing your ground, they can always escalate way farther than you can imagine.

I have read all the books about boundaries and standing up but it gets to the point that the shock, anger, violence, willingness to explode in public and willingness to to stand up for things that don't seem that important is so overwhelming that you just sort of learn to give in.   And there is no such thing as saying you don't want to talk about something or this is a boundary for you.   That doesn't matter if it's a principle to her.  So no I just give in.

[Poison Ivy]

Hi,Jsinjin. Your community presumably has rules (laws) that regulate what is to be done with yard waste and how private property is to be maintained. It's unfortunate that you are willing to break those rules in service of your wife's illness.

[Prototypian]

Hi,Jsinjin. Your community presumably has rules (laws) that regulate what is to be done with yard waste and how private property is to be maintained. It's unfortunate that you are willing to break those rules in service of your wife's illness.

Thanks.   That's not quite true.  We were fortunate to be able to purchase a very large piece of property on a lake in DFW but the property was not zoned and platted.  I was able to play it myself with no HOA in place.  The city does have some rules regarding grass heights and I've been in trouble before for that but the leaves are not a rule.   Texas in particular does not have many city rules for zoning outside of HOA rules in those neighborhoods where there is a board and appearance etc.   there are several of those neighborhoods near me but my particular one is dominated by large custom homes on their own property along the lakeshore.   We have large wooded sections and hilly areas and all the neighbors have horses, cattle and chickens as suburban ranches.

[square]

I don't think we are going to forget that you were arrested due to your wife's bizarre priorities, nor will we forget that your wife did not find that fact to be concerning enough to make any changes in her behavior or outlook.

We really would like to see you safe and appreciated, and the idea of you going around and picking up bags of leaves to bring back to your property for eternal storage to avoid screaming and violence is pretty hard to read.

[Prototypian]

I don't think we are going to forget that you were arrested due to your wife's bizarre priorities, nor will we forget that your wife did not find that fact to be concerning enough to make any changes in her behavior or outlook.

We really would like to see you safe and appreciated, and the idea of you going around and picking up bags of leaves to bring back to your property for eternal storage to avoid screaming and violence is pretty hard to read.

All true!  To my credit, I did use them stacked around the chicken coop as a layer of insulation in the freeze last night.   But that's not an excuse for the collection of them when not really needed.

[square]

Great idea, and I'm sure the chickens appreciated it.

I just hate that you are in this position. It's not your collection of the bags that begs excusing but your wife's abuse of you.

You deserve much, much better.

[Poison Ivy]

 

[Catothecat]

Hoarding may not in itself be a personality type, but it's certainly the result of a severe disorder(s).

I have a friend who's a hoarder, and it goes hand-in-hand with her fear of change and need to control her life to keep change from coming.  She seems to think (subconsciously, of course) that hanging onto stuff will cause time to stand still.  Right now she's living in the time capsule of her parents' house, which she inherited, along with all their old stuff going back to when she was a child.  She may not have been able to control the chaos in her childhood home (due to a severely mentally ill brother) but what she can control are the objects around her.

(To clarify the ridiculousness of the situation, she also has her own home which she rents out to a former roommate.  Her own home is also filled with stuff to the point where some rooms can't be entered into because they're so jammed).

The sad thing is, she's aware of her hoarding yet acts powerless to do anything about it.  She talks about it all the time, but not as a psychological issue but as a practical one, and because of her approach to the problem she convinces herself that it's "practical" to hang onto old, even worn-out or broken, stuff because someday it might be useful.  Or someday it might have value as an antique.  So while she complains, she also throws up roadblocks to resolution.  In the meantime, I have to hear about it every time I see her. 

Hoarding seems to be one of those disorders that are incredibly hard to deal with or manage because the focus tends to stay on the objects being hoarded rather than the reasons for the hoarding.  So I really feel your dilemma, because attempts to get sucked into my friend's issues are tiresome enough.  I can't imagine living with someone like that.

[Prototypian]

A follow up to this, km the original poster.  Wife is udiagnosed OCPD.   Today is a day off of work from my normal job and I'm at home but my wife has work.   She doesn't miss work and that's a good part of ocpd but she realized that I was to be home on garbage day.   She actually began crying out of fear that I was going to throw things away that were mine or that I might think aren't important or recycle things that are being saved.   The fear was a literal mental collapse. 

In truth I was actually going to throw away some things of mine that are broken, I don't need or are in my way ranging from a broken bucket to a few soiled rags to some old notebooks I no longer use.  I can't believe how paralyzing the fear is, not of losing something but her fear is that it could possibly have residual value and it is being thrown away.   We have over 200 (estimation) milk jugs.   She doesn't want to recycle them because they could have other uses.  That's her thinking on trash or recycling.   

[MaxedOut]

Oof, Jsinjin, that is extreme. I am glad you have your own place to stay in at times. What is done with your stuff seems like a good area for potential boundary drawing. You are the boss of you when it comes to your possessions. Having deliniated spaces may help as well. My STBXW is not quite horder level or of the type you describe but compulsive shopping, acquiring stuff, overfilling spaces, etc. is definitely a deal with her and point of conflict. Over the years, my and shared space shrunk do to this but being clear about spaces helped tame some stuff (whatever chaos or not of her closet, work room, car, etc. is not my business and vice versa). Share spaces are much trickier but we could find some compromise with space there too (that required revisiting and wasn't exactly respected but did keep things at bay) - like, I don't care how many Xs you have, but I get anxious with lots of clutter, so ones in shared spaces need to fit within those built in shelves.

I know these are probably bridges way too far for your spouse, but perhaps within the concepts there may be some grain of use. Even with lots of stuff, we mostly maintained a clear corner of the main living area at my insistence that at least one section of wall (where my seatining place usually faced) not be filled.

[Lookin 2 B Free]

I lived with an OCPD as a child and I know it's a PD rather than an anxiety disorder.  But since it involves a great deal of anxiety, sometimes (such as in the case of my family member) anti-anxiety meds can be very helpful and relieve a lot of their suffering (as well as ours).   

Certainly, as a PD, she doesn't believe her rigidity, control & hoarding are a problem.  Does she realize her behavior is unacceptable to outsiders, even if she thinks they're wrong?  Does she hide the hoarding? (My OCPD family member did realize she couldn't show this to outsiders who wouldn't go along with & enable it.) Does she realize you think she has a problem?  Has she ever considered talking with a therapist, individual or couple's, as a way of being helpful to you in working out your differences?  I know couple's therapy is often not recommended with PD's as someone like an NPD can do a snow job.  It's hard to imagine your wife being able to do that with this stuff.  But maybe I'm missing something.

My understanding is that the more you give in to anxieties, the more intense and crippling they become.  It sounds as if this may be happening to her.  I hope you both find a way to start getting some relief!

[Prototypian]

Ha.  No on the realization that the behavior looks strange to outsiders.  She is the opposite of concerned about how the home, her behavior and her persona appears to others.  She relishes in the fact that our home doesn't look nice.   She believes fully that a clean home or nice place or welcoming is a sort of "putting on airs" or trying to behave as though you are important.  She doesn't at all like to clean up for guests and gets angry at me for doing that.   She also believes that interrupting people, expressing anger, being indignant and making others uncomfortable is a sign of strength of character.   She absolutely hates landscaping, having things on the walls, keeping things vacuumed or loading the dishwasher.   These are all things that she has told me she doesn't like to do for guests because she feels that it is trying to cover up how reality is.

[Lookin 2 B Free]

That's very interesting, JsinJin.  My family member was also contemptuous of people who kept a clean place for a slightly different reason.  What kind of person would prioritize something so mundane!  They can't think of anything better to do!  And if another family member tried to touch the mess, maybe make the place stink less, they'd be sorry. 

Yes, there was something very wrong with anyone who cared about living in a pleasant environment.

[Prototypian]

Strange breakdown related to this.   Our community had a windstorm last weekend.  A major one with 70 mph (120-125 kph) winds and many tree branches fell and many trees were knocked over.  The town had a designated day, today, that would have hired trucks with claw grabbers drive around and pick up the piles of branches trees and debris from the storm.   We have a couple of acres and keep parts of the property natural for wildlife and privacy from the public lake we border.   I have a chainsaw for this kind of ranch emergency and cut up downed limbs and one that came down with my neighbor where it landed on the fence between the lots.   My spouse's concerns about this pile and the emotional breakdown actually made me feel bad for her.  The city just picked it up as today is the day for the cleanup.  My wife was upset day after day emotionally.  She wanted to know if we could take up bar b q smoking meat as the wood might be used for that.   She wanted to know if my outdoor fireplace might need more wood-it's all weird branches and crummy dead tree limbs that don't lend themselves to splitting.   She wanted to know if I might consider buying a chipper to chip it up-the city is planning to use a big central chipper for the yard waste to chip up for free mulch.   But her emotional concern for this pile of branches as a waste bordered on breakdown.  She was concerned which trees the limbs came from, were there any memories associated with those trees, might the piles of brush be out to better use for rabbits or habitat, and on and on.   I am certain she will come home distraught today about the waste.   I'm glad it's all picked up neatly and glad I live in a city where this sort of thing is handled by the community and people work together.   I just can't imagine what makes someone trigger such a fear of loss tied to things that just don't seem important.   Sometimes I wonder if I am heartless or maybe don't see the big picture.  I mean I recycle, I don't run up debt and really dislike collecting things, hate to shop because I don't like the experience but I also have very few deep emotional bonds to casual things in my life.   We all have keepsakes; diplomas, awards, photo albums, musical instruments, family heirlooms and small things like a cats iron pot that was a grandmother's.  To me that's neither hoarding nor out of the norm for things that enrich your life.  Fear of waste of trash or debris and letting that overwhelm your emotional state must be such a different way to look at the world.   I can't imagine what it must seem like to be scared that recycling may not be the most effective way to dispose of plastic glass or aluminum.   Or be afraid someone may have a better way to use some outdated item kids have grown out of so giving it to gooodwill or local church charity isn't effective enough.   I can't tell if it's the fear or the control or those are a chicken and egg.  Is she afraid of the yard waste not being effectively disposed of or just wants to control it and the lack of control drives the fear or is there no way to even understand the root?

[MaxedOut]

You didn't do anything wrong. What I noticed with my stbx is also probably at play here: accommodating the anxieties and fears only makes things worse long term. Do you think she would have reacted this strongly about the same scenario 10 or 15 years ago? "Protecting" and insulating anxiety driven stuff doesn't solve the anxiety; it just moves the edge out for what causes anxiety. I saw in my spouse that accommodating things without question just made her less and less functional in the outside world and in other relationships. Purposely switching more to sitting with her discomfort and helping her process it (sometimes after reregulation) didn't make things worse. It made some things less anxiety triggering. And I felt a lot better plus more of a partner vibe that weird Kaplan drama, spinning parent-child dynamics. And it sometimes provided a point to talk about next time something came up or to just set a rule that takes some of the decision out of the action loop (like, X partner is responsible for decisions about Y domain).

If it does happen again, hugelkulter would be something to do if you really want some sort of middle of the road option. But it's a lot of effort. And/or this stuff usually does get chipped/mulched so I pretty much let them have it then go get loads of the end product to enrich soils. Full circle but the hard part of the loop belongs to the people with big machines and labor.