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[cepnahu]

Does anyone else have trouble when trying to open up to a friend/close person?

Like, dealing with a PD parent is hard to explain when their actions are silent and not out in the public, especially if they only abuse u emotionally. So when I try opening up and talk to a close friend about why i keep distance from my parent, they just kinda see it as a non-issue, like im making it dramatic or say stuff like "everyone fights with their parents, i use to break stuff at home and runaway". Or they make it seem like I'm complaining for no reason cuz it's not that bad. And it's like everything that happened to me is suddenly dismissed and  I just want to be a victim.

At least that's my experience and i know i dont need approval from others that my anger is valid but i feel so alone in the whole situation, at least in real life.

I tried talking to a therapist and she told me to try writing things down in a diary but it doesn't really help and I feel more and more unstable everyday. I also feel very childish for everything, maybe I am but my head hurts thinking about it. I probably feel that way cause that's what my pd parent would say, not sure if I'll ever escape their voice in my head that constantly judges me and friends dismissing my struggles just makes it worse. Maybe i shouldn't open up about this anymore unless it's a nurse in a psych ward cause im pretty sure that's where I'll end up in at this point.

Anyways, it happens to most of us, right?

[walking on broken glass]

I am so sorry cepnahu. Yes, unfortunately this does sound familiar. What I discovered after opening up to various people about my family struggles is that not everybody understands. Some people are too wrapped up in their own reality that they are unable to enter yours and others just don't have the tools or the capacity to deal with this. Lots of people tend to minimise and dismiss things that make them uncomfortable too. It sucks because, as you say, it makes you feel very lonely. When I was studying abroad and it was the first time that my BPDsis and I were in the same city as adults, she was making my life a living hell. New fires erupted every week, if not every day. I was in despair and I was seeking help and advice from a friend whenever something new came up. After an incident, when my sister had lied about me for the millionth time and involved my parents, I was venting to my friend and she said to me 'for god's sake, can't you just keep your cool? You can't be panicking with every little thing that happens'. Now, I know that I must have been all over the place back then. But a true friend would show compassion and, even if they were fed up with my constant problems, would gently suggest that this is an issue that is not going away and is affecting me greatly, and perhaps a therapist would be more equipped to help me. Instead this 'friend' implied that I was weak and dramatic and that I should get over it. I never talked to her about my problems again. But I did take the step to ask for an appointment with a university counsellor and she helped me immensely to navigate the situation.

I know you said that writing things down doesn't help you. Why don't you bring this up with your therapist, see if she has other suggestions? I would not discuss this issue with your friend or anyone else who clearly doesn't understand. Does writing here help you? I know it feels like you are going crazy but rest assured you are not. You just need the right tools and the right support to navigate this.

[CravingSafetyPeaceFreedom]

Hey cepnahu,

I'm new here and in need of help so not currently spending hours and hours trying to read others' posts, BUT I can't sleep so I read your post for fun, and yes, yes, yes 100% you are not alone.  I have experienced this from MANY friends or family members, and it's the rule rather than the exception.

I follow "Doctor Ramani" on YouTube (Ramani Durvasula, PhD) as she is one of my favorite people to learn from on the topic of abuse and narcissism, and she talks about this a bit in some of her videos.  Something like the scenario where an abusive husband (just making an example) will explode/abuse the heck out of his wife in private, then because it's out of his system, he'll be happy and normal and right as rain as if nothing happened.  The wife or any victim of abuse, will be a MESS for many hours or days, and each time it's another trauma that she has experienced.  So when they are in public together, people will see he appears normal and stable and put together and she will appear "crazy" and mentally or emotionally unstable or "off" or something.  They'll go, "What's wrong with her?" to themselves or each other.

Of course, the truth is the EXACT OPPOSITE.

I think it was Dr. Ramani (or some other abuse therapists people I follow) that said "Emotionally dysregulated people like narcissists use other people to regulate their own emotions."  Something like that.  Whereas in a healthy person, we are responsible for regulating our own emotions and having stability and healthy emotional processing.  So narcissists (and many other types of abusers) will outsource their emotional regulation and -- like a parasite -- use their spouse, children, etc. and explode/abuse/rage at them, manipulate them, blame them for all their own problems, twist reality and gaslight, etc. etc. and it'll destabilize the victim (which is what they want -- power, control, destabilizing reality) and once it's out of their system, it's as if it never happened!!!  And if you bring up the rage or abuse with them, they will DENY it ever happened!  Or genuinely forget about it!  It's really messed up since even in severe examples (violence, severe emotional abuse, etc.) they still pretend like it never happened!

Anyway, we then have the abusive person who has it out of their system and then normal appearing to outsiders, and their victim, who in private, was decimated and is now emotionally dysregulated themselves, and this victim appears crazy and unstable and not put together, so people wrongfully draw the conclusion that the abuser is the "good person/not crazy person" and the victim is the "bad person/crazy person" and NO MATTER WHAT THE VICTIM SAYS, that will create cognitive dissonance in these people, "Hmm, it must be all in your head" or "You're probably just being too sensitive" or "I know them, and they would never do that." etc. etc.

It's EXACTLY like gaslighting, but it's coming from a 3rd party.  I'm not a psychologist/psychiatrist, but I couldn't find a term for this so I just invented one:  gaslighting by proxy.  A term I use to describe when clueless bystanders become useful idiots and just make the abuse that much worse because they also deny the truth of what really happened, EVEN when you try to confide in them for support, love, understanding, answers!  It's maddening!

I've read and learned that narcissists are experts at "impression management" or tricking and charming people on the surface level to like or love them.  Excellent for short-term, superficial relationships but is so charming it's a great way to win many friends and romantic partners.  I've also read that narcissists wear a "mask."  Mask on, mask off.  Like "Oh, his mask slipped and we saw his true colors."  Sometimes their mask slips in public and it shocks people, because they must experience cognitive dissonance and the abuser's true side goes against everything they thought they were.  People handle cognitive dissonance in different ways, I guess.

So whatever it's called, it's very real and it's very common, and it happens to me whenever I try to reach out for help thus far.

You are not alone -- this frustrates the heck out of me.  I CANNOT confide in many or most of my friends!  Because I'm starting to learn that not everyone has abusive parents.  Not everyone has experienced violence from both mom and dad (towards each other and towards you), and decades of emotional abuse.  It's weird because this is all I know and have known my whole life so I assumed everyone understood my experiences.

But I guess not.  Many people have NO IDEA what abuse is like on the receiving end.  Most people have NEVER experienced narcissistic rage (from NPD) or borderline rage (from BPD).

So my thinking is -- and I'm still DEEP in the fog -- survivors like us MUST find support groups with other people who understand, because trying to confide in clueless people is a good way for them to turn into flying monkeys or to gaslight-by-proxy us and dismiss or devalue how bad things really were or make us question ourselves, and we end up stuck in the abuser's trap and "spell" doing more damage to us.  It can cost us years or decades of our lives and our health and in some cases our lives themselves if there is violence.

I've also learned that not all therapists -- and I've never been to one because I don't have access to health care so don't have thousands right now for a good NPD/BPD therapist -- but not all therapists have training or expertise in abuse and recovering from abuse (I keep using NPD and BPD but it could be anything), and I've also heard that some therapists can actually do some damage if they give us horrific advice.  So maybe be careful.

Again, I'm a beginner with all this stuff so double-check everything I say, but let this be known:  the experience you describe in your OP about your friend dismissing you and giving you some bonkers advice is something I've felt from many friends (in person and online).  I've also made the mistake in confiding in one abuser about another abuser, AND THAT'S DANGEROUS AS WELL, since I feel like at their level of mental illness and emotional immaturity, they are not equipped to have a mature discussion about personality disorders and abuse, since they themselves have it.  So it's like going to one venomous snake to ask for help about another venomous snake who bit you.  You'll just get bitten a second time.  And then they'll both deny biting you while saying it's all in your head as your life dwindles and fades to black.  Abusers may not literally take our lives (although some do or try to get close), but they absolutely do so metaphorically by doing some real trauma and damage that lasts decades and affects what decisions we make in life or how we form relationships, how we see the world, how we trust ourselves, etc.

I think it's critical to get help, but it must be from the right people.

[GoodPesto]

Hi Cepnahu,

I am sorry you're experiencing this. It is hurtful to open up and be dismissed like that. It's good to read you do not need their validation to believe yourself, that's pretty strong.
You wrote yourself - and it happens so quickly - that you've "only" been emotionally abused. Emotional abuse has tremendous effects on health and well-being and deserves to be taken equally seriously. From what I remember, there may be differences with regard to the effects of different types of abuse but you can't put them into some sort of hierarchy from "not so bad" to "bad" and "worst". If you feel like some validation in this regard there is a great paper on this subject by Pete Walker on his webpage.
https://www.pete-walker.com/pdf/emotionalNeglectComplexPTSD.pdf
I wanted to add one explanation why people are sometimes quick to dismiss sharings like yours that hasn't been mentioned yet. From what I am witnessing there is a lot of abuse going on in general and a lot if not most people work around confronting it. I think for a lot in this forum this is understandable because "the way out" is hard and painful in its own way too (e.g. going N/C). So dismissing your sharing could also be a way to avoid looking at their own stuff. So they are in some way not only dismissing your but their own experiences as well. This way the thought of something like "Damn, I never thought about it this way but actually it reminds me of how my mom/dad/brother/sister is treating me ... could this be dead-wrong?" has no chance to slip in. They aren't able to ackknowledge your abuse because they are blind for their own mistreatment and may need some more time to be able to look at it this way if they ever come to that point at all in life.
Adding this to the other reasons already mentioned. Not to excuse the rudeness of course.

"Keep your head above the water. But don't forget to breath" (Alexi Murdoch, "Breathe")

[Liketheducks]

I'm so sorry.   And what you've described is 100% familiar to me.   My addict/alcoholic NPD father was seen as a "saint" by everyone outside our family.   And, my mom, as well.   

Many of my friends actually envied the enmeshed and toxic relationship I had had with my mother.   Only a few people outside my FOC know about my childhood.   It just got too awkward for me.   It is just my cross to bear.   I'm the one who has to heal from it.   Someone people have cancer, or lose a spouse, or child....I'm the survivor of narcissistic abuse. 

I had a mentioned some of what went on to a new friend once.  He listened.   Eventually, it was clear to me that he didn't agree, felt that everyone's parents drive them crazy, etc.   But, he said something that stuck with me and I credit him for saying it.   Instead of "well, she's your mother". He said "as long as you feel that you've done everything, as long as you can sleep at night".  It was at that moment I could honestly answer that I DID feel that I had done everything and that I COULD sleep at night with our NC/VLC.   Whenever they pass on from this world, or when I do....I'll do it with a clear conscious.   

[Happypants]

Hi Cepnahu.  I read this post yesterday and was planning to reply along the lines of "it's very different from simply regularly locking horns with a parent under normal circumstances in that we're already sensitised from a million previous paper cuts and the nuance of dysfunctional dynamics".  I do believe that for many that's the case.  But in my experience it also comes down to something much simpler - PDs, consciously or subconsciously, intentionally or unintentionally, get something out of influencing my emotional state.  They add or subtract to or from my being (can't think of a better way to put it  ) and, if successful, it maintains their homeostasis, and I can feel it when they're attempting to do so.  For me, it's that feeling, the interplay, and the unspoken awareness of what's going on between both parties that's impossible to convey to someone who hasn't experienced it.  It feels "off".  I had one friend, a truly lovely, genuine woman, years ago who spotted my mother a mile off and knew the dynamics as she had had something similar with her mother, but aside from her I've had no positive outcome from trying to look for support, except perhaps some agreement about her behaviour but no true understanding of what I feels like.  I'm sorry I have no advice except to say that the older I get, the more comfortable I get with relying on myself (in a liberating way, not a depressing one  ).  I do still have a lot of anxiety around them, but the times in between those periods are calmer than they used to be. 

[xredshoesx]

I had to talk to more than one therapist to find a 'fit' for me bc I am generally very closed mouthed about the details of what I went through as a kid.  I give general info to anyone who doesn't know me well enough to KNOW- I was in custody of the state for a reason and I no longer have contact with my mother is about as much as I share with people outside my close circle.

I hope you can get some validation here but please don't discount working with a trained therapist if you have the resources. 

as a side note- getting a good therapist helped me make better boundaries with people in general so I was less likely to have someone superficial in my close circle.  part of what I had to unlearn was being codependent or a fixer..... that was my role in the family- to placate my mother- and once I got rid of that 'flea' the people I did choose to share with were giving me the same empathy/ support I was giving to them vs being one-sided where I was the one doing all the emotional labor in the relationship. 

[NarcKiddo]

If one has experienced the "death by a thousand cuts" type of abuse from childhood on, then it is almost impossible to describe it adequately to someone who has not experienced it. They can understand Big T Trauma (violence, war and the like) but small t trauma is not so easy, so a few examples just seem to them like normal family bickering. I don't think most caring people are dismissive because they are mean - they just don't get it. So working with a trauma trained therapist is by far your best bet if you are able to access one.

As for feeling childish - it seems to me that maybe you are having reactions from your inner child. Rather than push those reactions away and try to be all adult about your feelings my therapist always suggests being kind and attending to that inner child. Letting them vent their feelings safely (which is where a journal might come in handy, though you may also want to draw because doing something from a more child-centred place can be helpful. Even if you just draw stick pictures of the PDs and then scribble all over them. Yes, it's childish but can still let out some pent up emotions).

[moglow]

If one has experienced the "death by a thousand cuts" type of abuse from childhood on, then it is almost impossible to describe it adequately to someone who has not experienced it. They can understand Big T Trauma (violence, war and the like) but small t trauma is not so easy, so a few examples just seem to them like normal family bickering. I don't think most caring people are dismissive because they are mean - they just don't get it.

... and if I heard one.more.time about "mothers and daughters are just that way sometimes," I do believe I'd have screamed!

I'm very selective about who I share anything regarding mommie dearest and her stuff. Little to no detail beyond "we've never been close" and possibly "we don't talk much." So much said in those few words, but not everyone needs to know. I have some great friends who haven't one clue and I don't go there with them. I think someone who wants to understand and knows that sometimes you just have to get some of it out so you can set it down, will ask questions and pay attention to how [and what] we say. I've experienced the seeming dismissive responses too, and quietly whittled that name off my "mommie dearest" list. They're still my friend, it's more like having that friend that you go to dinner or church with and the one who's down for all the rides at amusements parks. Not everyone can hang, ya know? Doesn't make them less your friend or that you can't trust them, they just bring other things to the table. And sometimes it's a whole other table.

[TimetoHeal]

I've written here about this exact thing before, cephnahu!

In fact, I've found that some of my friends who I feel should understand the most, because they also have obviously toxic family relationships, seem to dismiss things the most vehemently!  I have figured out it is because they are still in their own FOG, and don't want to face it, and are possibly even triggered when I bring up stuff with my family. It's really unfortunate that we can't support and encourage each other in real life the way we do here on the forum. 

[Call Me Cordelia]

 

When people are ready to know, they'll remember and ask you. At least I've had that experience. And even then it was wise to tread lightly. Sometimes I do listen and support them through whatever the current family crap is, but need to have boundaries with myself about doing that. It's easier in a way when you can just shut the computer and walk away.

[TimetoHeal]

When people are ready to know, they'll remember and ask you. At least I've had that experience. And even then it was wise to tread lightly. Sometimes I do listen and support them through whatever the current family crap is, but need to have boundaries with myself about doing that. It's easier in a way when you can just shut the computer and walk away.

That is such a good point, CMC.  Thank you!