Is it possible my marriage never was??

Prototypian · August 31, 2025, 10:30:07 PM

My spouse has severe (undiagnosed professionally) ocpd. A confidante challenged me yesterday. I've been married to her for over 30 years. We have three children and had intimacy four times (one resulted in miscarriage. She cried through each time. She dislikes holding hands, any hugs or touching and doesn't like to "appear to be dependent on me in public" so there are to be no displays of husband wife like husband patting wife on the back or sitting close at church etc. there is always a reason. Then there is the severe anger, the control and the strange hoarding and emotional outbursts at me.

I truly honestly thought I must be very unattractive and must have something wrong with me.

I'll be honest hopefully without bragging that I'm successful financially with multiple businesses and paid off houses, vacation homes, no debt and sent all three kids to out of state colleges with no loans. Even looking lately at retiring early and consulting. I'm also 6' tall with a full head of hair at age 50ish and workout every day, eat right and take care of myself personally with hygiene and dress age appropriate for my business and life. I'm also active in the community and have friends. But I have thought for many years that something is wrong with me.

My friend said that "nothing is wrong with you that isn't wrong with other people. You have the normal faults and you are nice, attractive and good hearted.

Hearing that made me feel good. And if that's so, is it possible that my marriage to her never existed except for the wedding and the kids. I remember her whispering before the wedding to only kiss her on the cheek during the ceremony which I thought was weird. On our honeymoon she connected the event with her personally running a 2000 person conference for her job function. I never really saw her and I spent a lot of time walking the downtown business district alone. Most functions have been that way though life.

Is it possible this never was a marriage at all?

Rebel13 · September 01, 2025, 10:55:06 AM

I'm very sorry. It sounds like it must be so painful to be looking back and reassessing your life together in this way and seeing these patterns and events in a new light. I really wish you the best, whatever that turns out to be for you.

notrightinthehead · September 02, 2025, 03:54:52 AM

Look at it from your wife's point of view - you are her work horse. She bought you with the marriage, she paid for you with offspring. You provide her with funds and all the luxury she needs. When she feels cross, she (emotionally) beats you up. You live in fear of her and do her bidding. You will never leave her or reduce the comfortable life you provide for her. She has a different expectation than you might have. There is no need for her to change or even look at her own behaviour.

Prototypian · September 02, 2025, 10:56:36 AM

I suppose. Harsh and one way to look at things. I don't think she planned to behave this way. I think she just does and it's the only way she can behave internally. I don't think she spent her life planning "find a guy, treat him poorly and make sure he is financially secure and that he won't leave". I've seen her completely immobilized and crying that Google maps has one set of directions and Waze has another and until she understands exactly why she can't travel on either route. Multiple times. She once had multiple squad cars and police at our home over some property we have that had people walking through it with their dogs. The problem wasn't trespassing which she doesn't care about. It was the fact that the dogs weren't on a leash which is a city code. Her belief in wrong or right is predicated only on the absolute interpretation of rules. My truck was out of inspection by several days and she threatened to call the police on me if I tried to drive it to get it inspected. Her belief was that I should have it towed since I let it lapse. Because there are laws. I truly don't think she cares about money or making me work or providing. She hates waste so much she doesn't even buy herself new clothes or get haircuts. Our primary home which is an architect designed home with all the customization you could imagine has a literal hole in the back porch roof where a tree limb fell through it over 10 years ago and she is so scared of finding the "right" contractor and having things done the right way that she has even told me "I just can't find someone to fix it because none of them seem to know the city codes well enough to be trusted and I can't let it go". And she has shared that under no circumstances am I to get a contractor without her. And I'm scared of that kind of statement because she doesn't just get angry, she gets emotionally hold a grudge forever and bring it up in front of friends and family and never let it go screaming and yelling angry. In FOG I'm definitely on the Fear side of things.

This is a woman so scared of things that are potentially wrong that we have a hard line at our home that terminates without a phone. She can't stop paying the 8 dollars a month because there could be messages in the automatic answering system that are in there. (Aside, I give the number out freeely everywhere some business asks for my information since we can't answer the phone and it's funny to me that there may be telemarketers calllimg it)

This is a woman who has saved vacuum cleaner bags in case legos or who knows what else might be sucked up and lost. They're in a row on a shelf in. The garage

And it's a woman who was summa cum laude as an undergraduate with a triple major, law degree and top of her class who later took a job for 14 dollars an hour not because of any sense of entitlement but because "it's an important job and no one will do it".

I know she and her family came from nothing and she doesn't care about ststus, appearance, finances or anything else. She drives vehicles until they literally fall apart beneath her and we keep them. There are half a dozen old minivans and cars from our child raising years dotting our property with no way to every get them to drive because of fear of wasting them or giving them to someone who may not use them correctly. We have every car seat, every high chair and every toy and every article of clothing our kids have ever had.

This woman's life is not about having things paid for or being comfortable. For her it is about the absolute nature of right, fair, rules and laws.

I have talked about this before but once I had vip tickets to a big band I love. They came through a vendor who was sponsoring the tour. The package came with super vip parking, special line that you go through, a special area with food and drink then a few minutes with the band for photos and then an escort to take us down to the third or fourth row with our signed posters etc. as we drive up she was emotionally upset that the parking attendants waved us through and we skipped th line. But she began sobbing and crying and was angry that this special short line let us and others in the velvet rope club bypass the long lines and security to the vip party area. She was so mad at me and the whole program. It was unfair, unjust, a symbol of status and should not be allowed.

She is definitely not motivated by money, thjngs, or even what would be joy. Those things anger her. Being stable and luxury sends her off the charts angry. She doesn't even like it when I clean before people come over because she doesn't want to "show off" and try to appear successful. A direct quote "I would rather keep all the trash than take the chance that something gets wasted".

And to her the absolute nature of the marriage vow as a vow is all that counts. Her parents got divorced and to this day her anger at them (both deceased) is about the absolute nature of the vow and promise). She is angry still today 25 years since the divorce and 10 years since they passed away. To the point that she cries every year over the vow her parents broke. Her concern is definitely not money, comfort, lifestyle or really control. It's about rules. Rules anyone might follow or not follow. To her life is paralyzing if rules are not spelled out and she is angry if someone has a different interpretation than she does. It would be easy if it were money or status or control. But it's anyone not following the rules. It's any sense of injustice. The exact dimension of a flag and height and size for your front porch, the washing instructions on your clothes, the exact Audubon society rules for the bird seed you put out; choose to either not follow or not know these thjngs regardless of who you are and she will become violently angry at you no matter who you are and she will never forget the transgression.

I don't think she beats me up when she feels cross. She beats literally anyone up at any time immediately when a rule or more' or norm is not followed. It's the nature of what we call a "Karen" which is sort of a meme but this one is very real and a huge part of everything that goes on.

She would be completely unconcerned paying for things herself, having any level of income, and would gladly live in a trailer if things were 100 percent fair and everyone followed the rules. Possessions don't matter to her at all in fact she goes out of her way to not have nice things; buying cheap food, refusing to take flights when it's cheaper to another way because "there shouldn't be status of people who can afford to fly vs not afford". She was very angry at me when I took a private flight for business and learned that those terminals pretty much skip all the security tsa rules. In her mind everyone should stand in line and there should be no pre check and no status and no skipping the line for anyone.

I'm ranting but I wanted to sort of clear up thjngs; this is a woman who would gladly report me to the police and be fine with me going away for whatever happened even if it was something minor such as a mistake on income tax and see herself become destitute if it was legally and morally right. I, her children, her family, her friends her possessions, her lifestyle do not matter at all in comparison to rules and preventing waste and preventing inequality. She HATES my income and home and status. That comes with ways to avoid equality ranging from taking a toll road to save time to paying for private tutors or coaches for our kids. You don't do that because it's not fair. Everyone should have to shop at dollar stores and cut coupons regardless of the time because it is right and just. As a spouse and partner I am only important because of the original vow and that's all that is impoetant in the set of rules. Believe me, this would be very easy if she was a "real housewife of some big city". She is a hyper focused legal and ethics savant with radar that sniffs out absolute moral and norm rules in every situation and breaks down emotionally and physically if there are any gray areas in any part of life.

square · September 02, 2025, 12:43:28 PM

Jsinjin, it's always different for people on the outside looking in. Whatever attachment or history you have with your wife, we're not a part of it.

I can assure you that your feeling that something is very off is accurate. And I can sympathize with your previous unconscious assumption that what is wrong must be you, or that you don't deserve more than you have. But you're not crazy, it's not you, and of course you deserve to be appreciated, loved, supported, and protected by your wife. It is clear, unfortunately, that she is by far the biggest stressor in your life, and nowhere close to being your rock or your shelter.

I don't know what drew you to her in the first place, I don't know if you guys have or had some good times, I don't know if you share a humor or outlook, I don't know if she "gets" you in some weird way that nobody else does, I don't know if there are times of any affection, at least emotionally. Only you can know if there ever really was a marriage.

On the outside looking in, I feel confident in saying your wife has an extremely severe mental illness, and that she is not capable of any significant change since her behaviors are strongly ego-syntonic and align with her values.

I also see that you are carrying an Atlasean burden, but I'm not sure I see how that burden is helping anyone. Your wife will just go on being how she is with or without you. Your kids would likely benefit from a "safe" space with Dad, planning and executing outings normally and calmly, handling dishes and possessions normally. And you? Your health cannot be unaffected by what you are dealing with. Your mind cannot be unaffected by this.

Was there ever a marriage? I have no idea. But whatever you have is clearly broken, I'm sorry to say.

Rebel13 · September 02, 2025, 02:22:11 PM

Quote from: Jsinjin on September 02, 2025, 10:56:36 AMI don't think she beats me up when she feels cross...
(snip)

this is a woman who would gladly report me to the police and be fine with me going away for whatever happened even if it was something minor

How do you reconcile the inconsistency of these statements for yourself?

MaxedOut · September 02, 2025, 04:45:55 PM

I wrote a post earlier but abandoned it that was sort of about the "was it real" as many things in your original post were similar for me with my ex. I think it's a bit of an unanswerable question as the defining assumptions can vary and shift so much.

The place I ended up at is that it was probably as real as my ex is capable of "marriaging." And her mental illness is also severe meaning, it was likely all it would be. It was also abusive and incredibly torqued to her realities and anxieties with me performing a lot of (ever increasing) accommodations and attempts to prevent blow-ups.

Fear (and personal value of responsibility) were the two biggies for me. And a major one was how triggering leaving/divorcing/abandoning would be. Jsinjin, you mention her continued anger about her parents' split. Is leaving kind of like "the biggest rule you could ever break"?

I was in a similar sort of hold, if so. I was a protector, support, dependable, etc. and there as other relationships got torched. So the idea of leaving was conceptually fear inducing even in the briefest consideration. And I had a resistance to even considering it as it would "prove" her darkest fears and accusations correct (characterizations or worries I spent countless hours reassuring over the years). A vert black and white sense of loyalty is strong with her.

All this to say, among my fear components of FOG, with a spouse who could go to rage and outbursts quickly (and self-harm, psychosis, and acting out towards me) frankly terrifying.

But also, the behaviors, anxieties, and my adaptations just increased over time making things increasingly hard and distanced from what had been good, the more typical marriage parts, etc.

I had some similar reassessments of the years and similar dynamics that you mention in the original post. If the above rings true and you would like, I can talk more about how I grappled with some of those questions and fears and radical acceptance about what the marriage was/had become/could be.

A key bit was that she also made some vows! Ones she had not upheld and there was so much treatment that is not ok. It is not ok to expect someone to stay regardless of abuse, mistreatments, etc. I did/could not start with the idea of deciding to end things or leave. I could though start with defining some must-haves/boundaries about treatment I am willing to tolerate. And not a laundry list, but a few really important things. And I could get to the point of "these are really important-they are needs, not wants-and I will work to get my life to meet those needs, hopefully from within my marriage but ultimately I am not doing ok in a lot of ways and suffering greatly, so these need to happen."

Poison Ivy · September 02, 2025, 04:56:28 PM

Historically, people got married for reasons other than love or romance. Even today, many people get married other than for love or romance. Those are still marriages. Sometimes, however, the spouses in one marriage have different reasons for getting married, and those reasons eventually conflict. It seems to me that this might be the situation for you, Jsinjin. I believe that it's acceptable for one spouse to decide, "This no longer works for me, and I've decided to end the marriage."

MaxedOut · September 02, 2025, 05:27:17 PM

It is acceptable for one spouse to decide it no longer works for them or they simply do not wish to be in the marriage any longer, irrespective of whatever else.

We have one precious life to live.

JustKeepTrying · September 04, 2025, 02:50:07 PM

Dear Jsinjin,

You have been a kind friend to me. You reached out when I was on rocky path with my son. You have been kind, supportive and offered me great advice and encouragement. You are a good person and you deserved peace, stability and joy in your life. I am sending you hugs from afar.

I would like to address the root question in your title from a religious perspective. When I filed for divorce I met with my local priest for guidance. His advice was that my body and my life is a gift from God and I had to live it with love and joy and care. He didn't condone divorce - but he didn't tell me not too. He said that since I was being physically hurt - mentally abused - I had to care for the life and body God gave me and that care was to leave. A few years later I spoke with the priest who married me - a very dear and old friend. I opened a conversation about annulment. Just to better understand what it means. His perspective is that if a person enters marriage with a mental illness; or on drugs or drunk - or any type of duress - then the marriage is null and void as they didn't enter into the marriage with a full understanding. Since my ex didn't enter into the marriage embracing the vows fully, I could argue for an annulment. I am not as I do not truly believe in the religious covenant of marriage anymore. But it was helpful to know my parameters.

What helped me when I left - that final tipping block - was the realization that he knew what he was doing and he knew it hurt me and he did it anyway. He did it with intent and purpose to hurt me. I am not talking about just the physical abuse but the years of mental and financial abuse. Understanding that - and knowing that he could care for himself even if it wouldn't be pretty- he had the capacity. That helped me leave behind the guilt part of FOG. Or at least any guilt I felt towards him - Yes his house is filled with empty boxes, piles of paper and food that has expired but may still be good - receipts for cash for a banana and on an on. Is it pretty? No. But he still works and feeds himself and takes himself to the doctor and so on. He has adapted his poor poor me OCPD life for so long that he could never step out of it.

You have been struggling with this for a long time. I know it is a hard step to take and we will be here to support you regardless of your decision.

1footouttadefog · September 04, 2025, 03:27:24 PM

I have posted some of my thoughts about marriage and divorce here over the years.

I won't go into great details, but in our culture and among Christians there is a pretty huge expectation of sex in marriage. To have and to hold, two become one flesh, leave mother and cling into his wife, and on and on it goes.

We can morally outsource all but sex. Cooking, eating together, working out and taking walks, fixing and cleaning or not.

You were possibly lied to at the Alter. When she asked you to kiss her on the cheek it was a tell. It has been a lie all along. Seems she likely never intended to have and to hold or to be held.

You get to decide if you get a redo. She is unilaterally turning your sex life into something that is not what God intended. It's a perversion of what things should be, and in my thinking no less immoral than if you were cheating or using porn and denying her a sex life.

ETA, you are being equated to an expired car tag, in that it's a petty rule break issue and as meaningful to her. In reality she broke the rules first.

1footouttadefog · September 04, 2025, 03:47:46 PM

Wanted to add that yes I agree we are supportive of any decision. Only you can make it.

You have many options and living separately while still married is one. At least your day to day would have less of the crazy.

I hope you find a path that works for you. I will advise you don't make any large changes until you have clarity about why your ad making them and what you expect from the change. Some time along might help sort these things.