Sister says no gifts for nieces and nephews, Therapist says otherwise - advice?

[SisterBlue]

My sister has BPD for sure. Seems like it may be a long with something else too, because it's pretty intense and her empathy ability is pretty low. She used to be on medication long ago, but now doesn't believe in medication, has never had therapy and is entirely untreated.

In any case, as a family, we all just went through some tremendous loss and it spiked some extremely difficult behavior in her.

All of this culminated in a huge blow up (devaluing and then discard) to both me and our Mom. One of the claims is that we don't care enough about her kids despite us calling and sending things and interacting and despite the fact that she has been repeatedly told us we can't see them without calling first and then avoiding our calls and scheduling stuff for a meet up (I live far from them) that she then cancels at the last minute after avoiding my repeated requests for an update on ETA etc.

The blow up happened the last time we gave them birthday gifts. She said we don't care enough to send them gifts and that they're confused because we're not showing them we love them and to stop sending gifts. Note that when I have talked to them, they talked to me normally, and when they run over to Mom's house they hug her and chat for hours.

Anyway, I talked to my therapist about this, and she said that since the request makes absolutely no sense since giving them gifts IS showing them care, and since I want them to know I always care and am there for them for times their mom my crash or they just need me, that I should continue to send cards and small gifts.

I'm torn because people always say you should respect the parent's wish. I also know she will continue to attack verbally if I do. I have her blocked on messaging, but not her home phone or email, and after the last time when we said we needed space from one another, I have decided to go No Contact. This is a cyclical behavior with her and while it was better for a while, this is just as bad as it was when she was a teenager... which was truly awful.

Do you all have any thoughts or similar experiences?

[Call Me Cordelia]

 

I'm assuming the children are children? I'm inclined to agree with you. You're in a pretty impossible position to try to have a relationship with the children while being no contact with the mother. I see her sabotaging the heck out of your relationship with your nieces and nephews and then deploying DARVO to make it all out to be your fault. With the consequence that you aren't allowed to send gifts. Well, if you send them anyway, I predict that will just be further "proof" of your awfulness and disrespectful nature. If you do send gifts, they very well may be trashed and will come with plenty of drama aimed at you.

It's so awful for kids of PD parents. They are kept isolated. I wonder if this might be an appropriate time to use some of the strategies recommended in cases of parental alienation. For example writing cards/letters on their birthdays to be delivered when they are adults.

[NarcKiddo]

 
I think your therapist is wrong to say you should continue to send gifts if the parent has asked you not to, assuming these are minor children. Since they seem to have the freedom right now to come and go from your mother's house, maybe you can spend time with them there to keep the connection alive. They will then know you love them whether or not you give gifts, and that way they will know you will be there for them if they need you. Depending on their ages, maybe you could supply some toys or activities to be kept at your mother's house that they can enjoy there.

[SisterBlue]

Thank you! One of them is a graduated adult. The rest are all minors. The reason they sometimes see mom is that her home is next to their business. So if they're there without their mom, they run over to say hi. Mom always asks them if their parents know where they are and to make sure it's okay to do before they do it. They range from 11-17. But lately, sister has not been taking them with her to the business. I probably won't rely on that as a way to see them. It's too fraught.

But I really love the idea of letters and cards for them as they age. Sister didn't say no cards, but I don't want to break no contact to ask her if cards are okay. She's so volatile right now, and my anxiety reaction to her screaming is so intense, I definitely need to work on that first.

I really really appreciate both of your insight. I have no idea why my therapist says that. She's an awesome therapist with a lot of specialty training and years of experience who generally does a great job. I don't know if in this case, it's just that she likes me and is so angry about what's happening or what. Or if it's touching a particular nerve in something she dealt with. But yeah, it feels like a no win. I feel so horrible about the kids. I've been very involved in their lives since they were born, and it sucks that they might think I just suddenly stopped caring after the horrible thing that happened in all our lives. But I have to figure out how to handle that. The really crazy thing is, she has been so randomly and unpredictably involved in my kid's life. The canceling playdates and meet ups at the last minute (even if we've flown a long way to see them) has been happening forever, but since she wasn't actively attacking us, and she was struggling all the time, we just managed it. Projection I guess, huh?

Anyway. Thanks again. I needed a place to say these things with people who knew. And Reddit is not exactly as secure.

[SisterBlue]

Also, yes. She isolates them a lot. They often aren't even allowed to go outside to play simply because she doesn't want to go outside, and she must be with them. They live in the middle of the country, so it's not a busy area. I worry. 

[blacksheep7]

Also, yes. She isolates them a lot. They often aren't even allowed to go outside to play simply because she doesn't want to go outside, and she must be with them. They live in the middle of the country, so it's not a busy area. I worry. 

Oh Geez
I would worry too.
They are old enough to go outside on their own! A 17 hear old on top of that.  As one mentionned, send cards.  Keep in touch with them and who knows, one day they might come knocking on your door.

 
My nieces did come knocking.
.

[SisterBlue]

Aw, thank you so much. I have a boss who went through this same thing with one of her sisters, and her nieces did seek her out. So I hope that happens. I love them so much. I remembered, too that when I asked my sister in the middle of her tirade if I could call or contact the kids, she said, "I Don't Care!" But then why would she care about gifts???? It's so nonsensical and makes me feel like I'm going a little crazy. But in my mind, that does mean I can send them cards and letters. I don't feel safe calling, but I can do that.

Thank you again. It's been a hard day.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Gosh, I had a mother who didn't let us play outside either. Summer was so boring.

On behalf of my inner child, thank you for trying to be there for your nieces and nephews.

[SisterBlue]

Aw, I bet it was! I'm so sorry for that. We had some issues in our childhoods too, so that's partly why I care so much. I hope you're doing well now.

[sandpiper]

It's a long time since I dealt with this one. My sister just seemed to enjoy the capriciousness of creating no-win situations. I discovered that if we (me and ensis) were out of favour, she would simply hide and hoard any presents that we sent to her and then tell her children that we didn't care about them. When I was on the boards back then, there was an expression, as long as they are in her house, they are the Witch's Prisoners, and only time can set them free. Dad used to do the hiding presents and lying thing, too. It was very confusing.
My sister started telling all her friends that I hadn't sent birthday presents to her kids - a lie - so the next time I sent them by registered mail, meaning that the kids had to sign for them. They had a month to pick them up from her small-town country post office. She ignored and ignored the reminders (weekly) to collect and sign them, waited until the last day, and then marched her 10yro daughter into the post office, made her sign for the BD gift and then returned it to me.
So all I had really achieved by sending presents was to have my niece humiliated and mortified in public and it just set off an even bigger tantrum as it didn't stop my sister's lies and her smear campaign.
In the end I just got sick of the toxicity and decided to just walk away.
Her children haven't come looking for me & my therapist's advice was to focus on building FOC (family of choice) relationships with my friends and their children.
If a T is telling you to ignore a boundary that a family member has set, I'd be raising my eyebrows at that one.
If she or he hasn't heard stories like mine - and I've heard worse - then I'd be wondering just how much knowledge they have of cluster B personality disorders, and I'd be going further and wondering if this is just their naiveté or if they are setting you up to create more drama in order to pay for their own children's private school fees and their orthodonture.
But that is just my level of cynicism these days.
Your best opportunity to have a relationship with them is when they have the freedom to make their own choices.
You are giving the BPD sibling way too much power to engage in drama, if you continue to send things when she has told you not to.
If one of them has already left the nest then that is the time to try to connect with them. Bearing in mind that they've spent their entire lives absorbing all of their parent's behaviour as being 'normal' and they will have a lot of issues with their own behaviour. They might remain enmeshed for life and unless they seek T, they could spend their lives trapped in the cycle of dysfunction.
The best advice I got here was to be a lighthouse.
Live a good life, work on your own stuff, and keep yourself safe.