I hate the fact that I'm still here

[Trinity85]

I have made some progress to separate, but it seems slow. I have successfully distanced myself and I am no longer physically seeing him - nor am I answering every call/text - but we have not had an actual conversation about the state of our relationship so when we do speak, it's incredibly awkward. And I find that when I get off the phone, I'm upset all over again. How f'd up is that after nearly 19 years together?

I want there to be clarity - I want to tell him that I don't want to continue this relationship - but I am avoiding that conversation. I don't think it's because I want to go back - because I really don't - or because it's painful - it is, but it's more painful to stay.

The truth is I am avoiding a conversation because I know how he is. The conversation won't bring resolution, because he has ASPD and he just wants what he wants. There won't be any way for me to leave with grace - two mature adults admitting it's just not working - it will be my fault and he will do everything in his power to annhilate me. Even tonight, when I tried to broach the subject of a possible converation - by saying that we hadn't talked much lately - it was immediate defensiveness with him claiming that he had been calling me but I hadn't been answering, which is actually true...

Not sure what I'm asking here - just looking for support I guess. I think I'm close to free - just not fully there yet. If anyone has experienced something similar, I'd love to hear how you found your way to the other side.

[square]

If I recall correctly, you've told him you're "taking a break" - and I guess have physically left? But still talk/text some?

How often are you in contact with him right now? And has that contact been the same level over the last few months or has it reduced at all?

How often is he the one initiating contact? Is there a demand from him for a certain level of contact? You've said you don't reply to every call/text, how does that go?

I think it's okay to let go of the idea of having a mature, adult talk about it. It would be lovely to do that but it takes two mature adults to do it. Whatever it takes for you to be safe is the best way to go about this. You don't "owe" him a chance to try to destroy you. If he is tolerating the slow fade, great. If you feel like you're not being honest, ask yourself how honest he's been with you. You're fine.

[Trinity85]

Thanks @square. We took a "break" back in March but then eventually reconciled. I guess that is on me, but I have really struggled to break free from this relationship. Knowing about trauma bonds and cognitive dissonance are helpful, but they haven't been enough. I am so frustrated with myself.

He punished me emotionally in ways that are hard to explain after that (the phrase "hell on earth" comes to mind) and I think he just pushed me too far and I finally reached the point of no return. Our physical contact went down after that (my choice) and I have not seen him much in the last two months.

We are now really only talking/texting, and even the frequency of that has been reduced. I have not been initiating and in fact, I have his ring tone set to silent and text alerts hidden so I am not tempted to reply quickly, if at all. But I am finding that when I don't reply, he tends to call more or text cute things that definitely pull at my heartstrings.

When we do talk, he acts like I'm still his girlfriend and that is confusing for me and upsetting.

You're right to call it a slow fade as that has been a conscious choice on my part, especially knowing that any attempt at an adult conversation about the situation would just be a bloodbath, but I'm not sure he's going to "get" it and eventually disappear.

I guess that's why I am probably wanting a conversation, and you're right that in some ways I feel like I'm not being honest, but maybe you're also right that I need to think about this differently. I don't owe him anything at this point given how he has behaved. Perhaps I should focus there.

[square]

Yeah, he won't "take the hint" and go - unless he meets someone else or something.

I don't know what tactic you should take. I just think you need to let go of the idea of "being honest." If someone asks for your ATM PIN or Venmo password, you don't need to "be honest" with them.

Can you imagine any method that allows you to continue a fade without triggering him? You need another break? You've been overwhelmed with work or whatever lately? I don't know.

I do understand that you're not going to break things off without some sort of conversation unless you just disappear (is that an option on the table?). But I don't know if the slow fade could help. Maybe, maybe not.

[Trinity85]

The slow fade will get me part of the way there for sure, but eventually I'm going to need to say "this is over" (this is what I meant when I said I didn't feel like I was being honest). I guess I'm afraid to face this as I know he won't react normally and will be nasty and horrible. Of course, I would tell him in email and I could block him immediately afterwards, but I guess I feel intimidated. Just writing that makes it clear how deeply this relationship has affected me. I hope I am making sense.

[Rebel13]

You are making perfect sense. These kinds of relationships, and the neurological/emotional patterns they can set up in us, make us think about/worry about/do things that might seem "irrational" to other people. I can totally see why just thinking about sending an "I'm done" email would bring back all the fear of an over-the-top reaction and having to cope with that.

One thing I learned from Pete Walker's work is that we can tell ourselves we don't HAVE to cope with other people's reactions anymore. Because I grew up with disordered people, I tell myself that "I'm grown up now, and I have resources that I didn't have then." But you could come up with some self-talk that describes your own experience and reassures yourself that you're not on the hook for what he says, does, thinks or feels anymore.

Other people's drama really ISN'T our problem to solve, especially when the relationship has been such that they've trained our neurology and emotions to convince us we ARE responsible for them. You get to make choices that are right for you, and communicate them, and these disordered folks can go away and have their tantrums on their own time. You get to protect and care for yourself and build the peaceful life you want.

[hhaw]

Trinity:

You wrote you've "been together" for 19 years.

Does that mean you're not married?

What an amazing God send it would be, to not have to do anything, but leave!!!! Civil court....all court, sucks the life out of finances, and Nervous System, IME.

About your feeling guilty for not telling ASPD you're leaving....I think I'd chalk that up to survival instincts.

You're allowed to protect yourself, ya'know?

You're allowed to leave without running into the buzzsaw of attempting to gain a PD's understanding, in a situation the PD will NEVER understand, stop gaslighting, blaming and weaponizing your humanity/compassion against you.

All this is truth, and if you behaved really really badly....
in your opinion.....
it's likely you'd be acting just about "normal."

Maybe accept it's time to enter your villain Era....and be l ss kind to toxic others?

You certainly don't have to be nice to this ASPD.  You've done your best, and that's all anyone can expect of you.

Now....
if you're able to accept there's nothing but leaving to be done ....
what does that look like for you?

Are there options you haven't thought of?

Do you feel safe to go OR do you worry about your safety?

Trust your intuition.  It's ok to forgive yourself for staying, and trying as long as you have.  You're devoted, and kind, but he will never see this your way, or take accountability for anything he's done, IME.

I'm looking forward to your ideas, and brand new future, as it develops for you....the sooner you go no contact with ASPD, the quicker you'll start feeling like yourself, IME.

Good luck

[Rebel13]

About your feeling guilty for not telling ASPD you're leaving....I think I'd chalk that up to survival instincts.

Excellent point. I remember reading a long time ago something along the lines of, "Feeling guilty doesn't mean you're doing the wrong thing." I think that's so true for those of us who've been conditioned by abuse to put other people ahead of ourselves.

I hope you're doing OK Trinity. Let us know how it's going if you have the time and desire to.

[Trinity85]

Hi @hhaw and @Rebel3. I'm here, just trying to take it a day at a time. Thank you for your thoughts.

To answer your questions, we are not married. He lives in another state. I know I am very lucky not to have to legally disengage and to have built-in distance. But I am connected to the community where he lives and leaving that is very, very hard for me. But I have no choice. I can stay, but the behavior will never change, and I just can't do this anymore. I can't allow him to continue to hurt me. It has taken me 13+ years to get to this place.

I don't really have a plan for my future at this point, but I'll figure something out. In the meantime, I'm filling my time with house projects and exercise. And I do spend a lot of time thinking about all this.

The fog seems to come and go and I get so frustrated with myself because even though I have all the facts about what he's done, and I can point to literal proof, I still struggle at times to believe it is real. It makes no sense! I've been reading about the neurobiology of trauma and what relationships like this do your brain and that helps a bit.

I do have moments of peace now and for that I am grateful.

[hhaw]

Trinity: I hope you focus on restoring peace, and building a healthy life.....on learning
healthy boundaries (they'll keep you safe, going forward) and space for joyful possibilities.

You have choices how to proceed....

Most people worry worry worry, ruminate into the past, and fear into their futures.... it's a very common coping strategy for those landing in this forum, IME.

The choice to do your best, put problems, worries/unknowns on the shelf (fig.) frees you up to be joyful every minute of your life, IME. It truly is a choice every moment.

You're a nice person.  Research assertiveness....review your standards for how you expect to be treated in relationships....
know you teach people how to treat you, through setting and enforcing boundaries.

Your soon to be ex is in the past, and you can understand how you ended up in this position, to better inventory your inner world, and what you'll allow and not allow, going forward.

Get curious....drop judgement....see what's truly there. 

Wisdom, discernment, and self compassion will replace what you're leaving behind.....and you're absolutely enough, just as you are.

One more observation..... it's easier on everyone to go no contact with a pd person you're leaving.

Mostly, bc you'll remember yourself more quickly, but also to end the suffering of the break up....for you and the PD stbx, IME.

The kind cut is the clean cut, so they say.  I agree 100%.

Take care of yourself, like you would a beloved child.  Everything will be ok.

[Trinity85]

Thanks @hhaw. Trust me, I'm all about boundaries these days but it has taken me 13+ years to get here (I knew nothing about his double life for the first 5 years of our relationship). Maybe it's something unique to me, or maybe anyone would have responded the same way, but when I found out what was going on behind my back...well, it just destroyed me. I have a very clear memory of feeling a literal physical split in my head the day I learned of his deceptions.

Of course, I knew at the time that what he was doing wasn't right, and I knew that I didn't want it in my life, but I thought he was ill and initially he seemed like he wanted to stop doing what he was doing so I stayed. And in truth, I don't think I could've stepped away anyway, even though I wanted to many times over the years, because I was just frozen.

Thank you for saying I'm a nice person but that was probably part of the problem as well. I just had no life experience to draw from to help me. I also didn't know about his actual diagnosis until 8 years later and even then, I struggled to appreciate what that meant. It wasn't until a year ago, when I learned of his financial insanity that something changed and I finally saw his behavior was not personal but part of a larger pattern.

I'm not saying this to make excuses. It's just the truth about what happened and why I stayed as long as I did. I look back on it and it's hard for me to believe that I could've stayed knowing what I knew, but as I said, even now, where I feel like I am finally seeing clearly, it is still a struggle and I can feel my brain working so hard to try to find normal answers.

People always ask why someone would stay in an abusive situation - and in asking they unwittingly invalidate the abuse. Very few seem to understand the role of neurobiology and trauma and how it rewires your brain - and how you need to rewire it back. Not sure if this helps anyone, but this has been my experience.

[hhaw]

I've been deep diving the topics of institutional mysogyny, biochemistry, unconscious belief systems and the high hard work of noticing them, taking inventory and deciding what goes, stays, or gets tweaked.

Much of the conversation is around......
the types of inappropriate, scary, and dangerous behaviors my niece and I are pre programmed to receive/expect maybe even ask for while in fawning survival mode, in an attempt to feel safe in the moment.

And I gotta'say.....healthy anger isn't too familiar, but it's ok....and maybe even necessary...to carry one through this examination of one's internal world.

On my journey, there's been some shame and feeling responsible.....
bc...I allowed....excused....ignored...was confused by......held captive for the safety of children/others....
but then, some people believe everything's their fault. That's me and certainly my niece.

Our tribe, on the whole, is easier "to fix" than those who never take responsibility for anything, ever.

I try not judge it.....I strive to sit in nonjudgmental awareness.  It's easier when I get very curious, and kind with myself.

Sometimes, being nice, pathologically....
as trauma response/coping/survival strategy involves self abandonment. Maybe mostly involves giving ourselves away, IME.

It changes our throat's tension, the sounds we can and can't make....ime. 


If fight, flight, freeze and fawn are the most common trauma responses.....
freeze/fawn are personally devastating, IME.

With some distance, I see perfectly well why people stay in abusive relationships.....and why it's difficult to get out.

My youngest DD once told me....
"If you were to become a super villain, in your own mind.... you'd probably be just about normal."

Meaning.....stop being a Golden Retriever type person....have some boundaries.....learn to enforce them sans energetic upheaval....and without hesitation.

Ya'know what?  It sometimes does feel like I'm having my villain arc....while practicing very small acts of assertiveness, even.

Then there's a messy very blunt blurt, now and again, as I strive for level, consistency.

It's a process, but at least I'm awake, aware, and putting brain plasticity to the test.

I'm able to spot, and catch cognitive dissonance....
most of the time, and sort out the reality, which is my worthiness of kindness, and ability to protect myself with healthy boundaries.

The journey continues.

P.s. my ASPD had a double life.  I too, thought he was ill.  I caught him at the 5 mile marriage marker, and might have run, or stayed, but for our 2 and 4yo daughters....watching.

 

[MaxedOut]

" My youngest DD once told me....
"If you were to become a super villain, in your own mind.... you'd probably be just about normal.""

Oof... that hits for me too.

[Trinity85]

@hhaw Thanks for mentioning your ex also had ASPD and also was leading a double life. I don't know anyone that has been in a long-term relationship with someone with ASPD - and while all Cluster B disorders seem to share similar dysfunction - there is something about ASPD and double lives that is particularly disturbing.

In my case, the sheer extent of the betrayal was beyond what my mind could possibly imagine or accept. I honestly couldn't figure out how he literally managed it with his regular life. Finding out was deeply painful, completely shattering my identity, sense of reality and trust in myself. I've tried to talk with people about this and many see him simply as a cheater, but it's not that simple.

His reaction when confronted (under the oversight of a professional therapist in their office) was not at all normal. I have a vivid recollection of him smiling, and when I told him to stop and that he was frightening me, he said something that to this day makes no sense to me. He said, "Had this happened years ago, I would not have been able to handle it."

That alone is bad enough for anyone to live through - but then...at some point...amidst the disorientation and shock...you start to wonder - if he can do this and not show any emotion, what is he really capable of? And that's when being with someone with ASPD becomes real.  It is terror in the true sense of the word.

But then the fog closes in at some point as you are processing and your brain resets, trying to preserve the sense of reality that you had before this all happened. Mindf*ck is the right term or trauma. The result is the same. 13 years and still it is a struggle to see things clearly.   

[IsleOfSong]

" My youngest DD once told me....
"If you were to become a super villain, in your own mind.... you'd probably be just about normal.""

Oof... that hits for me too.

+1 here!