Boundaries. What Are They?

[Aames]

To reiterate on the theme -- boundaries are not about the other person, or punishing them for something you don't like.   Boundaries are about us, and keeping ourselves safe.

They're not rules you lay out for, and expect someone else to follow. 
Telling yourself what you must do, for yourself, when you are treated poorly -- and then sticking to it -- is what makes a boundary.

Boundaries are for, and about us - the rules we lay out for ourselves -regarding the treatment we will and will not accept, and how we choose to respond when our boundaries are crossed.   

For the record -  people who suffer from personality disorders aren't  the only ones who might have trouble with respecting other people's boundaries - And it's not always Non's who don't have good boundary setting skills in place for themselves, either.   Sometimes the reverse is true.  And again - being individuals -- some people who suffer with a PD will have better boundary setting and respecting skills than others - just like us Nons.

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[dragonflytoo]

This is very good. I have never understood about healthy bounderys. I have never been able to draw the line and say no to someone that is being hurtful. There was a man at my church that was always bullying me and making rude and lude comments.I would just egnore him. Then one day I saw him make a lude comment to another woman. She told him never to speak to her that way again. A light bulb went off. I said to myself that's what you do. It was so simple but lost to me for all my life.

[noexpectations]

Well, 4 years ago I sat in the office of my adult daughter's therapist - my D is diagnosed BPD/NPD - and realize now that in the office of a "professional" when she worked with us to set up "boundaries" and what were really put in place were "rules".  My D did not want any contact from me in any way shape or form - I was not to try to find out about her through anyone.  The boundaries that I put in place were that my D did not get to call me up and rage.  If she did, I would discontinue the call and we could talk later when she was not raging.  I also said that when she was ready to work on things I wanted to start by working with a therapist so that we could learn how to communicate in a healthy way.

Since that time I realize what I really have been given is the silent treatment and I know it is a form of abuse - I also know that my D who is 26 seems to be showing more and more symptoms of narcissism - I have been discarded and I have been grieving all these years - does it ever stop? The sadness and anxiety that comes with an adult child who has cut you out?  It is not just me, but her entire family.  It is as though we have ceased to exist.

I have continued therapy for myself - but it seems if I am not feeling well, or a major life event occurs, I find myself feeling so vulnerable and hurt.  I know this is a genetic and environmental illness that my D suffers from - Her father has it as well - he is also an alcoholic and he left us when she was 11 - has had no contact with her since.  I raised her on my own - and am faced with the reality that I am the one she has cut out.  Her memories are so skewed that I don't know if she remembers any truth about me or her life.  She seems to have demonized me.

Any suggestions from people who have experienced this long term silent treatment are welcomed.  I have a wonderful husband and two great step-kids - she has demonized them as well.  I know I can't let her steal my joy anymore and all I can control is me...yet as a mother, how do you move on from the pain of all of this?

Thank you ahead of time...
noexpectations

[MakingChanges]

I've been looking for info on boundaries because I'm now setting them with someone.  And I'm trying not to allow myself to feel "guilty" for setting boundaries and having this person not be happy about them.  But I definitely want to enforce boundaries on what I will allow in my life and in the lives of my kids.  I'm putting a lot of thought into what are reasonable boundaries versus my anxiety of someone taking over my life-- due to a past BPD partner that completely glommed on me right away.  I also want to not renege on my boundaries because I start feeling "bad" for speaking up about what I will or will not allow in my life, especially in the early stages of this new R/S. 

Why do I want boundaries, but then feel like I might be over reacting by stating them and then wanting to enforce them?  What's that about???  Codependency issues?? 

[new4me2014]

Rules vs Boundaries

This is where a lot of people get confused.

Basically rules are about someone else and boundaries are about us.

An example might be:

Rule:

You may not use something of mine without permission.

Boundary:

If my things are used without permission, I will remove them from availability.

Another example:

Rule:

You will not speak disrepectfully to me.

Boundary:

If I am spoken to disrefectfully, I will leave until the conversation can continue respectfully.

Rules are made to be broken and there is always an exception to one. Boundaries are consistent always.

Basically, rules are about the other person and attempts to control their actions; boundaries are only about us and what we will do if they are crossed.

Cagey

Reading this post is like running into a brick wall for me! I want to thank you for posting it! This will help me in my relationships, job and being a parent and a teacher. Boundaries is much better than rules. And the fact that they cannot be broken and no exceptions. I will be changing a lot of aspects in my life because of this post. Thank you again.

[MakingChanges]

It's so odd to me that we struggle with boundaries.  I don't know why.  Is it because we were taught to play nice?  To turn the other cheek?  So what has happened to me is what someone above has described.  I've always ignored people when they've acted rudely to me.  I don't know why.  Maybe as a child I didn't know what else to do?   And then this ignoring just became habit?    It's a bad way to being because I get resentful and hurt, and this poor behavior by others doesn't change towards me.  So lately I've been making myself speak up and bring attention to bad behavior.  I also have given myself permission finally to feel hurt by other's behaviors towards me.  No longer will I let it slide because they have something going on in them or their lives.  My feelings and life are just as important.

Two wees ago I set a patient straight that was being  demanding and rude to me.  Usually I ignore the bad behavior and bitch to my coworkers about what a pain in the ass the patient is.  This time I looked her straight in the eye and told her she was rude and demanding and she needed to stop.  She of course claimed that she wasn't.  A week later later she came back in for an incision check and got stuck with me as her Nurse!!  Haha.  I heard her whispering to her boyfriend something about "Nurse Ratchett".  I said "Yup I am.  call me whatever you want but you were no prize yourself that day".  Most of the public act appropriately, but this experience taught me that I can appropriately state my opinion and expectations of people.  If I get reported, so be it.  I said nothing rude or inappropriate.  I just made a remark about bad behavior.

[Hawkie]

Most of the public act appropriately, but this experience taught me that I can appropriately state my opinion and expectations of people. 

That's a wonderful step! Kudos.

Yes, i do think children of PDs struggle with boundaries because we learned it was safe to obey and extremely unsafe to assert ourselves. My uNPD mother made it very unsafe for me to have boundaries, she demanded total enmeshment. So of course that's what I learned and thought was true of the whole world. Now here I am a grown woman and still learning how to assert boundaries with other people. Did you also experience enmeshment?

I struggle with the same thing you do, keeping quiet when people are rude. Recently I was screamed at and harassed by a neighbor (I'm not the first person he's gone off on) and the "new me" turned around, looked him square in the eye, addressed him as "sir", and recited the facts to him. Then I finished what I was doing and filed a complaint against him. It felt REALLY GOOD to be empowered and act like a woman with rights rather than a scared little girl with no rights. It amazes me every time that I say "no" or set a boundary and realize I'm entitled to it. Maybe that's the thing with children of PDs - we were taught that we had no entitlement.

Anyway, glad you put that rude patient in her place!

[MakingChanges]

I actually set a coworker straight last evening and I was appropriate and feel great about it.  My coworker is a pain in the ass passive aggressive type.  We've complained for many years about her behavior.  Well last night I was in charge and asked her to start a second patient that was coming in because I needed to help a junior nurse that was having problems in her patient's room.  This PA Nurse was dozing behind me at the nurse's station but pipes up with ,"well I'll try".....   We work in a Delivery Room so I can't have patients just hanging out without being seen by a Nurse.  So 15 mins later, the floor clerk said to me"That patient is here but C____  never went in her room.  She was walking up and down the hall here talking to herself that she couldn't do it because her patient needed an epidural".  I felt instant rage.  I went to her patient's room and said," C---- did you start that patient or did you ask someone else to care for her?".  She replied, "I don't know what you want from me, I'm doing an epidural.  I can't start her".   I appropriately and clearly said to her ,"What I expect from you is effective and direct  communication to me about whether or not I need to assign another Nurse.  I expect that you communicate to me and not to whomever might be listening as you vent up and down the hall so I can make sure that someone is attending to this patient's needs"  As I walked away I did a little PA behavior of my own and continued with, "And I'm in no mood to play the C-----  PA games tonight".    Later she came up to me to apologize but to continue to explain her inappropriate behavior and poor communication.  I said ,"C-----, I expect you to directly and effectively speak to me as the charge nurse if you're having trouble with the assignment.  I can't have patients sitting unattended in empty rooms because I didn't know that you blew off the assignment that I gave you but feel somehow that your deflection of this assignment was a proper handoff".  I wasn't backing down and allowing her PA behavior to be explained or OK'd. 

I feel that I made great strides because instead of bitchily going back to coworkers and complaining the same tired story about her, I hit it head on.  And I realized that either she'll change her future interactions with me, or I'll keep going at her every time she pulls her crap with me.

I feel really empowered today because I was assertive with her.  It helps that I was in a bitch of a mood because the unit was escalating with busyness when she pulled her crap with me.  I can't stand people that aren't team players.

[arianna]

I was trying to think of how I might be failing some clients as a personal trainer.  I'm going to consider that maybe I don't understand boundaries as well as I should. Or rather, I do understand them, but when I'm feeling crummy I don't act in line with what I know.  (That happens a lot; not acting in accordance with what I think.) This is a field where good boundaries are critical and I have to really work at it. 

[tangle23]

I have really enjoyed reading this post, and realise how most of my life I have lived with a total lack of boundaries, as a child I lived by rules, I had no clue as to what was going on, my emotional needs where far from met. I carried this into all my adult relationships.

For the first time in my life I have started to set boundaries with people in my life, it is just the start of a new me, but I also realise how important it is for me to teach my children how to set boundaries in a healthy way. Off to google children's books..

[all4peace]

Boundaries are something I have been thinking about quite a lot this year. They weren't something I realized I had the right to apply in one particular relationship. I seem to naturally use them with most of my relationships, but they were desperately needed in another. Setting boundaries has been the most powerful thing I have ever done. It gave me the time and space I needed to start healing and getting perspective. To me, it is saying that I have no control over another person's behavior, but I do have the right to handle it how I need to or to avoid it altogether if I want to.

It's incredibly freeing to set boundaries and learn to not care how the other person responds. I have two friends who are divorcing. I clearly told one that I would not be discussing his wife. He keeps trying to do so anyway, and I simply remind him of the boundary and refuse to continue the conversation. It doesn't really matter if this makes him angry or frustrated. I clearly stated the boundary and he will have to deal with the consequences.

Boundaries are the way we raise our children. We cannot make anyone do anything, but we can give our children consequences. It's the way the world works. When my kids leave home, they can continue to do anything they please, but they will know that there are consequences for crossing boundaries. What I simultaneously want to teach them is that they have the right to set their own boundaries and learn healthy ways to deal with people who try to cross those boundaries.

Even though we might think of boundaries under other terms (social conventions, rules, normal behavior, etc), boundaries are absolutely everywhere once we start paying attention.

[Rosemary1929]

I've been assertively setting some long overdue boundaries lately. Previously I might vent about this person behind their back, avoid them like the plague. But finally they said something really inappropriate to me and I responded with a very clear statement that this was not helpful, not asked for, and none of their business. And never to speak to me that way again.

I've been realizing that the reason I've feared setting boundaries is because I somehow came to believe that no one can handle it, that they're going to die if I set a boundary.  (possibly this is due to over 25 years of marriage to someone with an anxiety disorder who WOULD get really sick if I tried to have personal boundaries).  And also from the belief that "I am my brother's keeper."

But more and more, I choose to believe that I am NOT my brother's keeper. Brother needs to step up and take care of himself!

[arianna]

Boundary between mother and daughter: 

I feel a mother needs to set a clear boundary between her identity and the child's.  She has to do this for them both, so the child can move on with her life and become an adult that is separate from mom.  Otherwise she might be afraid to leave, feel guilty, overidentify, etc etc.  The whole mess of problems.  It's the mom's responsibility to take charge and make things clear.  It's also her job to make sure the child doesn't worry about mom.  So she can go, and not feel like she's breaking a bond.  It's her job to say "you don't owe me anything".

When my mom tries to keep me in her life against my wishes, it is just as bad as someone grabbing me and throwing me into a car against my will.  A mom can have that much power sometimes. 

[Spring Butterfly]

More on Boundaries:
https://www.uky.edu/hr/sites/www.uky.edu.hr/files/wellness/images/Conf14_Boundaries.pdf

Copy attached. Awesome article!

I most appreciated the section on barriers to boundary setting and the concepts are helping me rethink some of my exaggerated sense of fear.

This thought was most helpful also: "When you have weak emotional boundaries, it's like getting caught in the midst of a hurricane with no protection. You expose yourself to being greatly affected by others' words, thoughts, and actions and end up feeling bruised, wounded, and battered. "

[Spring Butterfly]

How to Create Healthy Boundaries:
https://www.uky.edu/hr/sites/www.uky.edu.hr/files/wellness/images/Conf14_Boundaries.pdf

Boundaries for Codependents
http://www.goyourownway.org/GOYOUROWNWAY/DOCUMENTS/EMOTIONAL%20WELLBEING/BOUNDARIES%20FOR%20CODEPENDENTS.pdf

PDFs attached.

[Spring Butterfly]

Another good article
http://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

"The terminology of "setting boundaries" is misleading and often mistaken to mean "giving an ultimatum." It is true that issuing ultimatums can be part of this life skill and at times, very necessary, however it's only one aspect of this life skill.

When we speak of the boundaries we are really speaking about our personal values and our need to get them in focus and live with more conviction. This is a lifestyle, not a quick fix to an interpersonal squabble."

This was helpful because I started to research information on personal values, how to define them and how to attach boundaries to them. I can definitely see how attaching the boundary to a personal core value would make it much easier to identify when a boundary is crossed. It would also be easier to honor and defend boundaries when they are crystal clear and attached to a core value. It would become more instinctive to stand up and defend a boundary.

Some real life examples of what this looks like in action:
http://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368.0


Other resources and information:
http://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=27228.0

[Spring Butterfly]

From this article
http://markmanson.net/boundaries

I appreciate these points most:

Healthy Personal Boundaries = Taking responsibility for your own actions and emotions, while NOT taking responsibility for the actions or emotions of others

People with poor boundaries typically come in two flavors: those who take too much responsibility for the emotions/actions of others, and those who expect others to take too much responsibility for their own emotions/actions.

This is what happens in these codependent relationships. The victim creates problems not because there are real problems, but because they believe it will cause them to feel loved. The saver doesn't save the victim because they actually care about the problem, but because they believe if they fix the problem they will feel loved. In both cases, the intentions are needy and therefore unattractive and self-sabotaging.

If the saver really wanted to save the victim, the saver would say, "Look, you're blaming others for your own problems, deal with it yourself." That would be actually loving the victim.

The victim, if they really loved the saver, would say, "Look, this is my problem, you don't have to fix it for me." That would be actually loving the saver

Really owning our own emotions as the Toolbox here discusses and only our emotions holds the key for me. It shows respect for others to let them own their own emotions.

[Spring Butterfly]

This article helped me appreciate attaching consequences to boundaries and some real examples of what that looks like. I'm not sure I agree with exactly the way the boundary and consequence is worded. The article explains how remove the emotional charge from boundary stating. It seems so matter of fact and easy the way it's outlined here.

https://coachingandthejourney.wordpress.com/2013/04/01/establishing-and-enforcing-personal-boundaries/

Some highlights I appreciated:

Once you establish and enforce consequences, boundaries become real.  Until then, they're just something you hope that people will honor – hope is not a strategy for establishing and maintaining healthy relationships.   

If you're uncomfortable with saying "no" or perceive that doing so may trigger anger in some people or cause them to not like you, I would encourage you to try reframing the belief that 'no' leads to conflict and upset, or that you must raise your voice in order to be heard.

By referring to a personal "golden policy", you're sending the message that, "Hey, this isn't personal; it's a core belief I have."   Having stated your boundary, you should not spend time justifying or defending your decision – spend your precious time living – not defending – your values. 

[Spring Butterfly]

Thanks Bloomie for pointing me to this site! This is a really good topic and free info and training :
http://www.7cups.com/boundaries/

'Your job is to protect your own emotional energy NOT to make everyone around you happy. It's part of your emotional health.'

'We value others emotions as well as our own but we are responsible for only our own.'

[Happysoul]

Beadreamer,
I absolutely love reading your posts and the actions you've taken on boundaries. I've been with my NPD husband for 7 1/2 years, but only just learned of NPD two years ago, and only found this forum roughly a week ago.
Today I started learning about boundaries. It seems to sum up boundaries, we must learn to control ourselves only, not others.

Anyway, so today my husband had a flare up and rather than getting stressed out with -here we go again. I found it as an opportunity to PRACTICE setting healthy boundaries.

I thought at first there was going to be so much to learn and read about boundary setting. But to my pleasant suprise it's pretty simple.

Know your boundaries.
Set your boundaries.
Be consistent.

I also love how you spoke on... Why walk on egg shells? No matter what you do could cause a flare up, so just be yourself and set boundaries.

You're posts on your experience and actions are very motivational!
Thank you!