Boundaries. What Are They?

Started by Aames, October 12, 2007, 09:04:09 PM

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survivor

#20

I seem to be able to set & keep boundaries with everyone but my adult children. I feel totally enmeshed in them & have gone non-contact with one of my sons because I was sick of giving & getting nothing back.

I've just been reading some of the links in this thread & I have figured out I need to set some new boundaries with my daughter as weve just re-established contact after a huge blowup. Im feeling vulnerable already so i need to decide what Im willing to tolerate in order to have a relationship with her, & what Im not. Or I'll blow up again :blowup:

Navaho

I agree survivor - without boundaries that we maintain we can easily lose control of ourselves.  Boundaries are really for us to be able to function in healthy and safe ways.  They are about us and not about anyone else.  So good idea and hope this helps in maintaining a relationship with your grown children. :yeahthat:

Klarity Belle

I have figured out I need to set some new boundaries with my daughter as weve just re-established contact after a huge blowup. Im feeling vulnerable already so i need to decide what Im willing to tolerate in order to have a relationship with her, & what Im not. Or I'll blow up again :applause:

This is a huge step forward for yourself Survivor, just being aware of these things is a big part of it, it shows that you are noticing that you are giving and it is not being reciprocated, your needs for consideration and respect in these relationships are not being met. It takes courage to set these boundaries with our children but it pays off in the end - it will give your daughter reason and time to reflect too even if her initial reactions are difficult.  Stick to your boundaries/consequences (((Survivor)))

survivor

Thanks for your encouragement Navaho & Klarity Belle,
                                                                         I've found an awesome website that is a recovery from codependence site. I'm just one big codependant mess really.
  I"d slipped so far back into my disease over the last 4 years that I'd forgotten I was a codependant.   I've been trying to stop rescuing my kids & set boundaries but the core problem was my codependency-its back & out of control ! :elephant:
  Ive been so desparate to get rid of that disturbed feeling that Ive been lashing out,spinning out & freaking out all over the place :whistling: It definitely got rid of people. :sad2:
I've just about figured out what Im going to say to her,hopefully she wont just hear :blahblahblah:
This is the website,
                                  http://www.joy2meu.com/Codependence1.html

moglow

To get back to a general boundary discussion ...

I wonder if anyone's able to really explain the difference between boundaries and ultimatums.  I realize a boundary is mine - I decide what is or is not acceptable and I enforce that boundary with consequences if/when necessary.  How is that different from an ultimatum, i.e. "do what I say or I will xyz"?

"She had not known the weight until she felt the freedom." ~Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter
"Expectations are disappointments under construction." ~Capn Spanky, The Nook circa 2005ish

gary

Hummmmm.....not much difference it doesn't seem.

Unless an ultimatum is something you declare when you have been weak with your boundaries 8)

" A bird sitting on a tree is never afraid of the branch breaking, because its trust is not on the branch but on its own wings.

Believe in yourself ".


Josh S hipp

www.gawalters.com
http://gawalters.com/blog/

Bloshka

Boundaries are the limits of your person and well-being.   You (and everyone else) has the right to feel respected, valued and safe.  If you don't feel those things, then a boundary has been crossed.

For example: If a person calls you fat then you won't feel respected or valued.  They have crossed a boundary in that they've disrespected and insulted you.

There are various ways to address the crossing of boundaries.   You can walk away.  You can say "I don't like it when you call me fat, I feel bad."    You can say "Did you actually just call me fat?"

An ultimatum, per the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, is a final proposition, condition or demand; especially one whose rejection will end negotiations and cause a resort to force or direct action.

Examples:
If you call me fat again, I won't speak to you.   (This one seems bumbling, but oh well....)
If this person calls me fat again, I will stay away from them.  (Better course of action.)
If you continue to have a Communist government, we will continue the embargo against your country. (Cuba)
If you shout at me, I will have to leave the room.  We need a time-out.




moglow

Kind of a thin gray line there, isn't it?  "I don't like it when you abc; if you do it again I will xyz."  Boundary?  Ultimatum?  We're taught to voice our limits (boundaries) so it does somewhat follow that our consequences for crossing those boundaries are ... ultimatums.  I can see where people get confused - I think I just confused myself.

"She had not known the weight until she felt the freedom." ~Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter
"Expectations are disappointments under construction." ~Capn Spanky, The Nook circa 2005ish

Bloshka

The ultimatum is the proposition that you will do XYZ if a person does ABC.

The entire propositions below are ultimatums:

— If you [cross my boundary], I will [take a certain action].
— If you shout, I will leave the room.
— If you invade my country, I will defend it and attack you.
— If you don't pay me by Friday, I will break your kneecaps.
— If you dump subsidized grain in my area of the world, I will take you to the WTO court.
— If you break the law, this society will try to prosecute and punish you.
— If you break the vow of fidelity, I will divorce you.

Aames

It can be tricky, trying to discern the difference.    But there is a difference:

from the site:  Life & Therapy:   http://elyntromey.com/therapyblog/?p=206     This article uses chosen / romantic relationships as the model, but the definition holds true across all relationships:

  A good boundary is the result of knowing yourself and having standards for how you want to be treated in relationship.  An ultimatum is the result of not setting boundaries to begin with; you find yourself unhappy with how you are being treated and you are focus on changing your partner's behavior.  The crucial difference is that boundaries come from a solid place inside of you, whereas an ultimatum comes from a wish about how things could be.  It takes self-esteem to set a boundary, whereas most ultimatums come from a sense of desperation.


In many cases, the ultimatum is a poor substitute for a good boundary.  You may have been in a relationship in which you didn't set boundaries to begin with, and you may wish you did.  Perhaps you wanted to say something early on, but didn't because you were afraid of losing that person.  Now you've been together for a while, and you realize you want to be treated differently.  Instead of looking at the part you played in setting up the standards of your relationship, you decide that your partner needs to change their behavior, so you give them an ultimatum.  You are now focused on your partner's behavior rather than your own, and this takes you away from yourself.  The more focus you put on getting your partner to change, the less you are able to figure out what your own boundaries are.  You may threaten your partner with dire consequences if they don't change, but those consequences are somewhere in the future, dependent on something your partner may or may not do.

Instead of attempting to change your partner by making threats, look inside and see just what it is you really want in a relationship.  Rather than focusing on your partner's potential, look at what is right in front of you.  What have you been settling for right here and now, in the hopes that something will change?  How long have you been settling for it?  Don't expect your partner to change their behavior in order for you to decide what to do with the relationship.



Here's another on why Ultimatims rarely work:

  http://elyntromey.com/therapyblog/?p=100

Good stuff.
"Don't ever offer up facts for consideration where small minds and angry villagers are concerned. They don't like having their myths busted or their war-parties interrupted."

moglow

#30
QuoteA good boundary is the result of knowing yourself and having standards for how you want to be treated in relationship.  An ultimatum is the result of not setting boundaries to begin with; you find yourself unhappy with how you are being treated and you are focus on changing your partner's behavior.  The crucial difference is that boundaries come from a solid place inside of you, whereas an ultimatum comes from a wish about how things could be.  It takes self-esteem to set a boundary, whereas most ultimatums come from a sense of desperation.

Thanks, A!  That's what I needed to clarify it in my own mind - I know instinctively the difference between the two, but putting it into words wasn't happening for me.  Looks like I wasn't alone on that one.

"She had not known the weight until she felt the freedom." ~Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter
"Expectations are disappointments under construction." ~Capn Spanky, The Nook circa 2005ish

oneflewover

Quote from: MoGlow on March 25, 2011, 06:12:44 PM
Kind of a thin gray line there, isn't it?  "I don't like it when you abc; if you do it again I will xyz."  Boundary?  Ultimatum?  We're taught to voice our limits (boundaries) so it does somewhat follow that our consequences for crossing those boundaries are ... ultimatums.  I can see where people get confused - I think I just confused myself.

Hi Mo!  It can be confusing!  But I see it as this way:

Boundaries are internal markers we set for ourselves when it comes to the external effects of others.  

Ultimatums are external markers we set for others when it comes to the internal effects it can have on ourselves.

Example:

Boundary:  Because he drinking, it is best that I leave. (my decision based on his behavior)

Ultimatum: If you continue to drink, I will leave. (my request for him to alter his behavior with a consequence if he decides not to)

But to me, they are both worthy tools in our ability to control how we, not them, cope and deal with something.  

Hopeful at last

Thanks for posting this one and for all the info, everybody!!!   :tongue2: I've been sitting here making notes and flow charts....  the part about an ultimatum coming from a place of low self-esteem and no boundaries having been set in the first place makes perfect sense.  But I'm still trying to wrap my brain around it all......I SERIOUSLY need to work on this so I want to get it right!!!!
One question:
If the relationship is a looooong standing one (Unchosen) with someone and is one in which no boundaries were set right at the beginning, am I understanding this correctly...if you follow the steps, (outlining your boundaries, telling them what YOU will do if they are breached) and the other person keeps breaching them, then is the only recourse to stay away from the person, so long as you keep the "door open" so to speak?  And isn't that kind of an ultimatum still????? 
ex/  I won't be spoken to disrespectfully.  I will not continue this conversation if you continue to speak to me disrespectfully.
And then if they continue speaking disrespectfully, then you leave, ***as long as you have let them know that you welcome a conversation another time, so long as they speak to you respectfully.  And then you just stay away until they can speak to you respectfully??? 
:oh: 



 

Aames

There is no requrement that you keep the door open to future contact.   You certainly may keep the door open if that is your wish, however -  If you feel you have reached your limit, and are of a mind to close the door on that relationship once and for all, it is certainly your perrogative.   The only requirement is that you understand you are exercising your bounaries (and their consequences) as a means of protecting yourself, and not as a means of punnishing the other person. 
"Don't ever offer up facts for consideration where small minds and angry villagers are concerned. They don't like having their myths busted or their war-parties interrupted."

Hopeful at last

Thanks Aames, that makes sense about using the boundaries to protect myself and not to punish the other person.  At this time I want to keep the door slightly ajar.......although that could change in the future.  What I'm having trouble with is whether the difference between a boundary and an ultimatum is just in the way it's worded, using "I" rather than "you" (in addition to the distinction you made)????  Maybe I'm just not getting it!!!!  :blink: 

What I'm having the most difficulty with is trying to maintain a relationship with my other family members, while at the same time setting up some boundaries with my Mom.  I'm feeling a lot of anxst right now because me talking less or sometimes not talking at all with my Mom (sometimes her giving me the silent treatment to try and punish me for the boundaries I'm setting) is creating friction with the other family members.  I've explained to my Dad that I still care about Mom and that I just told Mom that I can't keep discussing my medical conditions with her at great length and that I will talk to her happily about other topics- to give one example of a boundary I've put in place) 
I know that I can't be responsible for what they are feeling/thinking and I know that I am just protecting myself......maybe this is what is meant by not being attached to a certain outcome???? 
It's starting to look like the cost of protecting myself is the loss of a relationship with my brother, my Dad, my cousin, and some other close friends of the family.  Is this something that everybody goes through when they are establishing boundaries?  Am I just suffering from the "I want people to like me" blues???? 


gary

QuoteAm I just suffering from the "I want people to like me" blues????


They may not like us for setting boundries but they may wind up respecting us but never admit it.
" A bird sitting on a tree is never afraid of the branch breaking, because its trust is not on the branch but on its own wings.

Believe in yourself ".


Josh S hipp

www.gawalters.com
http://gawalters.com/blog/

Jillian

Quote from: gary on June 21, 2011, 03:59:05 PM
QuoteAm I just suffering from the "I want people to like me" blues????


They may not like us for setting boundries but they may wind up respecting us but never admit it.


I think, too, that for those of us raised by PD parents, it's hard to recognize the difference between people "liking" us and people treating us well.

I'm still learning this. When people like me, or show interest in me, I turn to butter. I'll even let them treat me badly. Because my mom "liked" me sometimes, and not others, and being treated well was dependent on whether she liked me. (My dad, too, in many ways.)

But now I'm seeing, slowly, that she can dislike me all she wants (or like me) but what's important is that she treats me and my children well. And slowly.. I'm starting to see that the same is true for non-parental relationships.

I really, really want people to like me, though. That has to come from the early childhood training - people must like me before they will treat me well. Or, he doesn't treat me well, if I could get him to like me, he'd treat me better. Or, he doesn't like me, it must mean my boundaries are "bad." All that... from mixing the need to be liked and accepted with the need to be treated well.

I'm sure there's more to the whole "I want people to like me" business. But in regard to setting boundaries, I think mashing together the needs for being liked and being well-treated is pretty common.

Might be the same for you, too?

Hopeful at last

Hi Jillian,

Quote from: Jillian on June 21, 2011, 06:06:02 PM
I think, too, that for those of us raised by PD parents, it's hard to recognize the difference between people "liking" us and people treating us well.

BIG TIME!!!  It's very true for me too. 

Quote from: Jillian on June 21, 2011, 06:06:02 PM
When people like me, or show interest in me, I turn to butter. I'll even let them treat me badly. Because my mom "liked" me sometimes, and not others, and being treated well was dependent on whether she liked me. (My dad, too, in many ways.)

I really, really want people to like me, though. That has to come from the early childhood training - people must like me before they will treat me well. Or, he doesn't treat me well, if I could get him to like me, he'd treat me better. Or, he doesn't like me, it must mean my boundaries are "bad."


I totally know what you mean!  When someone treats me badly, I blame myself, wondering what signals I'm giving off that people pick up on that let them think I am a pushover ("bad boundaries"), or that I am just flawed because even my own family didn't like me, so how can other people?......trying desperately to make them like me so that they will be "nice" to me, 
Even though I don't have a lot of friends (another issue, but probably related tho') I haven't been so selective and have also allowed my "friends" to treat me quite badly, to say things to me that were unkind, and accepting that they will just call me when they need something or when they have nothing better to do.  One of them even tells me when I call that she doesn't want to waste her cell minutes and tells me to call her on the weekend, even though when we have been out, she's constantly talking to other people on the phone when it was just the 2 of us there!   :-\ 
I've been quite isolated lately too because of my health and can't socialize much or do activities that are good ways to meet people and so maybe I am coming across as needy too????  :wacko: :blush: 

Quote from: Jillian on June 21, 2011, 06:06:02 PM
But now I'm seeing, slowly, that she can dislike me all she wants (or like me) but what's important is that she treats me and my children well. And slowly.. I'm starting to see that the same is true for non-parental relationships.
You are so right, it's that expectation of being treated well that we need to focus on.  I am realizing that in the past my "filters" weren't functioning....that people could become my friend just because they seemed to like me (Yay!!!!!) or wanted to spend time with me (yay!!!!  I mustn't be as bad as my parents said!!!)
Can you relate to that too?

It's tough sometimes to sort it all out, but I think just the fact that we are coming to some of these realizations about ourselves and where they likely stem from, we are well on our way!!!   :tongue2:
I'm really hoping that I get to the point where I don't care if someone likes me, just as long as they treat me well AND to the point where I am confident that people WILL like me, because I am a likeable person. 

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts Jillian.  Here's to true friends and to good self-esteem protected by solid boundaries!!!
Take care!  :bighug:
H. 



Jillian

Quote from: Hopeful at last on June 22, 2011, 05:01:36 PM
I've been quite isolated lately too because of my health and can't socialize much or do activities that are good ways to meet people and so maybe I am coming across as needy too????  wacko blush 


Thanks for your feedback, Hopeful. I can relate to your struggles. I am guilty of being "needy" too. I used to cringe at that word when people would tell me that I was. But I didn't really understand what it meant. Now I know that it means that I seem needy to others when I'm asking them to essentially play the role of my parent and therapist. I had a rough time of a few friendships, and am struggling with my marriage, and of course trying to make sense of my attachment to my childhood feelings, so because of that, I have been taking a break from pursuing friendships. Kind of like someone might take a break from dating after a breakup. So I've been purposefully giving myself space. And when I feel the urge to call someone or just see anyone, or to beg someone to love me, I remember - oh ya, I'm on a break. I'm creating my own boundaries, I think, for my own childhood self. Funny thing... I've made friends and didn't even know it, even without "needing" them. I'm just being me, being authentic, and asking nothing. People actually like me and treat me better when my boundaries are securely in place. I get out quite a bit because of the kids, and I am in toastmasters. But I don't do these things with the intent of making friends (anymore). And wow, it's changed how I talk to people. So, boundaries for others and also setting boundaries for my own behavior (right now) while I heal, has really helped in this regard.

Quote from: Hopeful at last on June 22, 2011, 05:01:36 PM
I totally know what you mean!  When someone treats me badly, I blame myself, wondering what signals I'm giving off that people pick up on that let them think I am a pushover ("bad boundaries"), or that I am just flawed because even my own family didn't like me, so how can other people?......trying desperately to make them like me so that they will be "nice" to me, 

I totally get the self-blame. I mean, it's obviously not their fault, cuz we're the needy ones, right? Arg. And the desperate need to make someone like me. I am learning - can't make people like me. I also tend to choose people to try to make like me who are like my parents - go figure. I think taking responsibility, now that's different. It's not our fault (blame) that they don't like us, but it's our responsibility to set boundaries for behavior we'll accept towards us from others.

Quote from: Hopeful at last on June 22, 2011, 05:01:36 PM
You are so right, it's that expectation of being treated well that we need to focus on.  I am realizing that in the past my "filters" weren't functioning....that people could become my friend just because they seemed to like me (Yay!!!!!) or wanted to spend time with me (yay!!!!  I mustn't be as bad as my parents said!!!)
Can you relate to that too?

I can definitely relate. In fact, embarrassed to admit, my filters were worse. If someone showed any kind of positive regard towards me (and I liked them back), I took that as a sign that we could be CLOSE, and I desired to be close, without really knowing the person. I don't really know my parents that well - it's hard to really know a person with PD or one who is emotionally or physically unavailable. So if someone was nice to me, I got that, ding ding ding, they could love me! feeling. I'm learning to instead, if someone is nice, to need nothing from them emotionally until much time and experience has passed. I haven't reached the comfort with intimacy stage yet, tho. I'm scared. I am so used to the old way of "getting" people to like/love me, I'm not sure what it's even like to have a relationship (friend or closer than friend) without that feeling. Still learning. Boundaries are definitely part of that. And they are for me, not the other person, to remind me not to be so willing to let people hurt me for the sake of making sure they still like me. It's so hard!

Quote from: Hopeful at last on June 22, 2011, 05:01:36 PM
It's tough sometimes to sort it all out, but I think just the fact that we are coming to some of these realizations about ourselves and where they likely stem from, we are well on our way!!!   

Absolutely! I love this perspective. :)

Thanks, Hopeful. Your insight helps so much.

Hopeful at last

Quote from: Jillian on June 22, 2011, 08:40:44 PM
Now I know that it means that I seem needy to others when I'm asking them to essentially play the role of my parent and therapist. I had a rough time of a few friendships, and am struggling with my marriage, and of course trying to make sense of my attachment to my childhood feelings, so because of that, I have been taking a break from pursuing friendships. Kind of like someone might take a break from dating after a breakup. So I've been purposefully giving myself space. And when I feel the urge to call someone or just see anyone, or to beg someone to love me, I remember - oh ya, I'm on a break. I'm creating my own boundaries, I think, for my own childhood self.

So, boundaries for others and also setting boundaries for my own behavior (right now) while I heal, has really helped in this regard.

Wow, Jillian, you just made a lightbulb go off for me! That makes soooo much sense!!!!  Here I was thinking how my friends just weren't being friends to me......I listened and tried to help every time they had a problem, but then felt so hurt when they didn't do the same for me, not realizing that I was actually trying to put them in the role of parent or therapist!!!!!   :blush: 
You are so wise to take a break.  It's true what you wrote about people doing so after a love relationship but not from friendships.  I'm going to try and take this time while I'm recovering physically to do that too.  Thank you!!!!

Quote from: Jillian on June 22, 2011, 08:40:44 PM
And the desperate need to make someone like me. I am learning - can't make people like me. I also tend to choose people to try to make like me who are like my parents - go figure. I think taking responsibility, now that's different. It's not our fault (blame) that they don't like us, but it's our responsibility to set boundaries for behavior we'll accept towards us from others.

That is very true!  As I have been taking stock of the relationships that I have ( or don't have any more) I'm realizing more and more how much the responsibility lies with me, especially for the friendships that are no more.  It's not only for not putting boundaries in place, but also for choosing to focus my efforts on people that share many of the traits of my parents and repeating the same old patterns of neediness, rejection, and emotional pain.


Quote from: Jillian on June 22, 2011, 08:40:44 PM
I can definitely relate. In fact, embarrassed to admit, my filters were worse. If someone showed any kind of positive regard towards me (and I liked them back), I took that as a sign that we could be CLOSE, and I desired to be close, without really knowing the person. I don't really know my parents that well - it's hard to really know a person with PD or one who is emotionally or physically unavailable.

No need to be embarrassed Jillian!!!  It's totally understandable why we, as children and then later as adults, have developed these faulty coping skills.  Every human being desires to love and to be loved and to have others that are close to them and understand them, liking them just as they are.  Unfortunately, we didn't have that as kids and its BANG ON when you said it's hard to really know a person who has a PD and is unavailable!!!  So, of course, we seek that out in others.  You are not the only one to seek that closeness or intimacy inappropriately.  I realize that I am guilty of seeking that or expecting it from others after just a short amount of time too, and I even sometimes have to do a lot of self-talk in public to keep myself from sharing too much or saying things to people I don't even know!   :blush: :o  And then I start thinking, wow, am I a total nutter????  No boundaries perhaps????!!!    hahaha 

Quote from: Jillian on June 22, 2011, 08:40:44 PM
I'm learning to instead, if someone is nice, to need nothing from them emotionally until much time and experience has passed. I haven't reached the comfort with intimacy stage yet, tho. I'm scared. I am so used to the old way of "getting" people to like/love me, I'm not sure what it's even like to have a relationship (friend or closer than friend) without that feeling. Still learning. Boundaries are definitely part of that. And they are for me, not the other person, to remind me not to be so willing to let people hurt me for the sake of making sure they still like me. It's so hard!


It is tough, I agree!  I feel kind of shell-shocked lately and am afraid to open myself up to more hurt and rejection. I also feel afraid sometimes in moments of self-doubt that I am just not meant to have friends, like everybody else has the "manual" and I didn't get a copy and don't know how a friendship operates.  From what I have read on the site, it seems like a lot of us who grew up in dysfunctional families often feel like an outsider.  Am definitely going to work on boundaries and like you are now doing, letting a friendship develop more "organically", for lack of a better word.  Also have to work on not backsliding when someone reacts negatively to my attempts to put a boundary in place for the first time in that relationship, and stand firm.  Like what Gary said, they may not like it, but might wind up respecting us more in the end and not admit it.  After all, they are used to us behaving a certain way and it probably seems strange for them when we are suddenly showing more self-respect and some backbone!   :aaauuugh:  We are all still learning.   ;)  Be proud of yourself though for how far you've come, being a good Mom, being part of Toastmasters and for all that you have accomplished already.......and for your wisdom!  Thanks again and take good care!   :D