Intelligence?

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Thorn bird

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Intelligence?
« on: February 08, 2014, 02:01:41 PM »
I just wondered if any one else felt their PD was above average intelligence.  My partner showed skills and abilities both in connection with memory, common sense and was able to use these skills to accrue knowledge on many subjects.  His emotional intelligence however was very poor, lacking empathy in most situations and being unable to connect and understand with emotional issues - has anyone else found this? :wacko:
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Oneness

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Re: Intelligence?
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2014, 02:38:23 PM »
Yes, mine had a 179 IQ. He was extremely intelligent, which I thnk he used to his advantage to cover up and make up for his low emotional intelligence, and his emotional age of a toddler....
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Keila

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Re: Intelligence?
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2014, 03:01:35 PM »
This is an interesting question. I'm curious to see what other people think!

My unNPD dad has also been unofficially diagnosed with a form of autism and is obviously some kind of high-functioning savant. He's probably the most intelligent and talented person I have ever met. He's at the top of his field, has dozens of patents, and has an incredible encyclopedic memory. My dad can fix anything that can be fixed--absolutely anything. He's a fantastic cook and he can sew like nobody's business. Although he can be charismatic and engaging, he also lacks very basic social skills and has difficulty understanding other people's emotional responses. He'll corner people and talk to them for hours even when they're trying to get away. He likes to discuss his private conspiracy theories, and has sort of insane black-and-white political opinions. He puts on a good act of being normal public, but in private he's cruel, domineering, and abusive. All of my siblings are also very smart but none of them seem to have serious PD issues; maybe his intelligence and PD are just a coincidence of genes?

My BPD husband is what most people would consider pretty average intelligence. Despite a high IQ that landed him in a magnet school, he never finished high school or college and he's not very interested in academics. He is, however, incredibly smart in most practical areas. For instance, he has extremely high social intelligence and is very good at making friends and persuading people to do things. He comes up with clever jokes on the fly and does very convincing impressions (he can talk "fake French" better than I speak real French). He has a scarily good memory. He's not so good at remembering what was said in an argument (or maybe he deliberately disremembers) but otherwise he remembers things in crazy detail. He took an anatomy class a few years ago and he still knows the name of every bone or organ in the body. He can tell you the exact year of every event in his life... don't try playing Trivial Pursuit with this guy! But I'd still say he has very low emotional intelligence since he's not very good at identifying or regulating his own feelings. He can usually identify other people's feelings, but he doesn't connect them to causes and tends to accuse people of having "wrong" or irrational feelings.

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Thorn bird

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Re: Intelligence?
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2014, 02:50:48 PM »
Maybe this is unrelated but I think particularly with NPD they have to be clever in order to maintain and validate their false self and to manipulate etc.  I just had a thought because my partner was particularly intelligent! :unsure:
The bird with the thorn in it's breast is driven by it knows not what to impale itself and die singing. But when we put thorns in our breast we know, we understand. And still we do it. Still we do it.

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boots40

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Re: Intelligence?
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2014, 03:53:06 PM »
I have 2 pd's and both are highly intelligent (educationally successful as well as having plenty of common sense and capabilities).  Regardless, they are/were both completely unemployable - unable to work with people, be told what to do, follow a different set of rules. 

In some ways their intelligence makes their pds even more unmanageable.  They are both very devious, calculating and manipulative.  Ubpd SIL is particularly Machiavellian.   
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bruceli

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Re: Intelligence?
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2014, 04:53:18 PM »
Perhaps in NPD's but not with the BPD's.  To me, it's that "sixth sense" we all talk about that I feel may give that illusion.  I would say they have a skewed interpersonal intelligence however.

1.has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
2.is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3.believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4.requires excessive admiration
5.has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
6.is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
7.lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
8.is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
9.shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes


Also, if one would look at the DSM criteria above.  They would lead one to perhaps understand why a person with high intelligence may acquire/have NPD.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 04:59:00 PM by bruceli »
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grizzled

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Re: Intelligence?
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2014, 05:34:05 PM »
I think it is tough to call.  I would guess that intelligence is not tied to the PD, since pd seems to be more of an emotional development issue. 

THe traits of NPDs would seem to put a finger on the scale though.  My NPDw feels that she is very smart, though I soon discovered that she just reads a lot and has an average intelligence.  The thing is, they are really good at faking it.  She claied to be a member of MENSA but I suspect she may be full of crap, as there has been no indication of it aside from her claiming to be such.
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Philomena

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Re: Intelligence?
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2014, 06:36:22 PM »
Mine (Bipolar/ADD +uNPD) has a 185 IQ, a PhD and 2 masters, postgrad training, and can't hold a job.
He remembers anything he's ever read and if he's paying attention, what he hears.
He can speak coherently to an audience without notes.

He is socially inept (does not read subtle social clues, monopolizes conversations, has terrible table manners, and is physically unkempt).  He feels he should not be expected to be neat/poised because he's special (his mom said so when he was little).

He is sympathetic but not empathetic, and he literally--when I tell him what my feelings are--he redefines them into happy or angry.
Very emotionally immature.


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kintsugi

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Re: Intelligence?
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2014, 07:08:23 PM »
well i don't know anymore ...

my stbxPD h always seemed terribly clever and boasted about it whenever he could manage to do so without anyone actually noticing that he was boasting, but now that i know the score and his number's up he seems to be making a lot of really dumb schoolboy errors with increasing regularity and i'm beginning to question just how smart he ever really was. 

for example: we would watch a weekly quiz show that is notoriously difficult together (the only tv we ever enjoyed together - it had that element of competition for him, you see) and would shout out our answers and keep our own scores and compare them at the end.  he always seemed to end with more points than i remembered him actually answering questions correctly, but because i firmly believed that he was a normal, trustworthy individual i never for one moment imagined that he would cheat at something so totally unimportant.  then one day i decided to keep score for both of us on paper because the kids kept coming in and i kept forgetting my score the week before and guess what? - i beat him hands down!  and the following week and the following week and and and ...

upon reflection also, an awful lot of his "quick wit" was lifted directly from me or others - i'd say something funny one time and then lo and behold he's work it into the conversation the next time we were out with work colleagues or something and take all the credit.  almost without fail.  same with books, music, films that he had "discovered' because he's "so intelligent and cultured" and also things i'd intuit - all regurgitated at will without flinching in my direction, so i'm guessing now that the stuff he brought home came from some place else too.  he certainly failed his graduate degree spectacularly (altho the story has always gone that he "dropped out because he didn't like the subject") hmmm.

i think now that perhaps we all just believed that he was clever because he told us he was - he's no fool by a long way, but he certainly ain't the sharpest tool in the drawer since i left.  either that or i'm just even cleverer than he is ...  ;D


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achalasia

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Re: Intelligence?
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2014, 04:41:49 AM »
Mine I'd say is below average.  She has no idea how to acquire knowledge/information independently... so she just asks people.  Perhaps that isn't as bad as it sounds (lots of stuff is learned through apprenticeship type arrangements) but it's usually very basic information and always poorly utilized/not utilized.  On more than a few occasions she's gotten bad information from somewhere and argued heatedly with me about it... and this is a subject related to my career.  Truly, it is amazing to watch somebody gloat about their intellectual superiority in your field, especially when the documentation proving them incorrect is on the desk in front of them.

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Inurdreams

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Re: Intelligence?
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2014, 10:46:41 AM »
I keep reading on here and elsewhere that NPDs have above average intelligence, but of all the NPDs I personally know, and there are quite a lot, seem to have below average intelligence.

They are very good at lying and pretending but the bottom line is they take credit for other people's work or manipulate other people in order to make themselves look intelligent.

The ones I know couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag, but they are excellent con-artists.   They know just enough to be dangerous.
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bruceli

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Re: Intelligence?
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2014, 12:38:38 PM »
Was just thinking however as to what one may use as the basis for intelligence?  What standard?  What if one uses Howard Gardner's multiple intelligence's and not just a standard IQ score?  Think about select groups like Actors.  Pro Athletes and Singer's?  The number goes up I would think.
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Fair doesn't mean equal and best doesn’t mean good.

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Thorn bird

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Re: Intelligence?
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2014, 02:59:59 PM »
Boots I totally agree :yeahthat:
The bird with the thorn in it's breast is driven by it knows not what to impale itself and die singing. But when we put thorns in our breast we know, we understand. And still we do it. Still we do it.

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Thorn bird

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Re: Intelligence?
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2014, 03:02:09 PM »
bruceli totally agree with that two and when I re read the list I am even more convinced my partner is NPD! :yes:
The bird with the thorn in it's breast is driven by it knows not what to impale itself and die singing. But when we put thorns in our breast we know, we understand. And still we do it. Still we do it.

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Thorn bird

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Re: Intelligence?
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2014, 03:05:12 PM »
Maybe they just believe they are intelligent and want everyone to see them as such.  One thing I do know is they seriously lack emotional intelligence and the ability to really feel or show empathy.  But, my partner knew every make and model of car on the universe!! :blush:
The bird with the thorn in it's breast is driven by it knows not what to impale itself and die singing. But when we put thorns in our breast we know, we understand. And still we do it. Still we do it.

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ellibelliblue

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Re: Intelligence?
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2014, 03:24:52 PM »
Mine is certainly not. She probably thinks she is, but is in reality one of the dimmest bulbs I've ever known. The inability to seek or accept alternatives to her own perception probably don't help with her ignorance.

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bruceli

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Re: Intelligence?
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2014, 03:40:08 PM »
Mine is certainly not. She probably thinks she is, but is in reality one of the dimmest bulbs I've ever known. The inability to seek or accept alternatives to her own perception probably don't help with her ignorance.

Do you feel that she is BPD or NPD?  What I have noticed is that the BPD's seem to be "dimmer" than the NPD's.
One will never fulfill their destiny or truly be free, until they can let go of the illusion of control.

Fair doesn't mean equal and best doesn’t mean good.

They could see me walk on water, and they would say it is because I can not swim.

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ellibelliblue

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Re: Intelligence?
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2014, 04:15:00 PM »
I think she's a "vulnerable" NPD, with some BPD or histrionic traits thrown in. But the core is almost certainly NPD.

My pet theory is that the difference in manifestation is that dimmer NPDs don't have the self-awareness to realize that they're being manipulative, the was some scary NPDs do. She's just a creature of emotion and ego and reaction. So maybe that's where the blurred line is.

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IndyGirl1975

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Re: Intelligence?
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2014, 05:54:22 PM »
Quote
1.has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
2.is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3.believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4.requires excessive admiration
5.has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
6.is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
7.lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
8.is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
9.shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

When posting I switch between uBPD/uNBD being I think he's uNBD based upon the above traits posted by bruceli. But… I like to give him the benefit of the doubt and lower him to uBPD. I believe that he is a highly intelligent, high functioning person however severely lacking in common sense, empathy and, for some weird reason, basic humor (I have to explain the simplest of jokes to him). I think overall he does care but he just doesn't know how to show it being he's created his own wall. That's one reason why I think he does well with his career. He doesn't have the ability to empathize with his co-worker's personal lives (except to gossip when something bad happens… gotta have that better than thou flow going) and I think that's why he does well at work. He can hear what they say but will easily move onto work related stuff being he either can't deal with it or maybe he doesn't care (contrary to my belief). That and he is a telecommuter. He'll travel on-site, get to know the basics his clients but then can detach easily once the project is over. They are just a means to an end… money, power, and getting the excessive admiration he yearns for being, I will admit it, he is good at his job.

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Thorn bird

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Re: Intelligence?
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2014, 12:35:23 PM »
I suppose it comes down to what we each and individually perceive as intelligence, for example is being clever the same or being well read or well educated or does it just come down to someone's IQ?  My partner in my mind is highly intelligent but as said previously has no emotional intelligence at all.  I love the conversations we have about different issues and I admire his ability to absorb and remember facts and information.  He is also hyper vigilant so he takes everything in - he doesn't miss a thing! :blush:
The bird with the thorn in it's breast is driven by it knows not what to impale itself and die singing. But when we put thorns in our breast we know, we understand. And still we do it. Still we do it.