Is there a rational explanation for their behavior?

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VividImagination

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Re: Is there a rational explanation for their behavior?
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2015, 09:59:55 AM »
but I'll always know deep down inside that I'll always be broken, no matter what I do form here on.

You may not feel this way eventually. I'd be willing to bet that if you disengage from the toxic people in your life and focus on recovery for a few years healing is completely possible.

I'm a completely different person since cutting contact and beginning work on myself nearly three years ago. Yes, I was like a broken plate that someone had glued back together, feeling raggedy and ugly for a long time. The process of recovery was like being reshaped and put back in the firing oven, and now not only are the ugly ragged cracks gone, but now I'm a brand new person who is stronger and much better than before.
There are three solutions to every problem: accept it, change it, or leave it. If you cannot accept it, change it. I f you cannot change it, leave it.

Sometimes you're damned if you don't and damned if you do, so damn well do what's best for you.

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Salsera

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Re: Is there a rational explanation for their behavior?
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2015, 11:31:10 AM »
it's gotten to the point where there is no explaining my NM and FOO. What explains it? How much really explains it?

I just think to myself "They are sick".
"Faith is taking the first step even when you don’t see the whole staircase." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

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InspirationHealing

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Re: Is there a rational explanation for their behavior?
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2015, 12:47:35 PM »
StillConfused said:
"I'll always know deep down inside that I'll always be broken, no matter what I do form here on."

Not necessarily! I was where you are a year ago. Every time I tried to reason with the NPDs, I'd get even more hysteria and s**t. They escalated to the point of totally dangerous insanity. They used a look or a feeling, put their ugly interpretations on it, and then told me they were going to "punish" me over THEIR made up interpretations! I HAD to walk away. After a year, the peace is finally starting to come into my life as I live in the moment and use exercises to get their voices of abuse and disapprovals out of my head.

You don't have to live to their script.

I have a feeling, from what I am seeing, that your FOO will escalate. He "expects" money from you (not respecting your autonomy), expects to get it even when he insults you (not respecting your feelings -- like if he bullies and insults you enough, that you'll come running with the checkbook -- blech, where did he learn this?), expects to get it from you even though you've told him you don't want to invest in his "losing" project (not respecting your decisions about what you will and won't invest in, and what you will and won't do with your money). Usually when you "refuse" to engage in this crazy-making (when you show them that you don't feel guilt) they start with the threats.

Some psychologists I know give their patients "voicelessness" tests; i.e. trying to determine how much their patients are being heard by their families, and how much respect they are being given. Depending on how "voiceless" the test determines you are, is usually a predictor of the extent of the abuse, including a predictor for escalations. Not respecting your autonomy to make your own decisions (plus defining you via  verbal abuse/insults) seems HUGE in terms of "voicelessness".

You have a right to protect yourself, your family and child from all of that. Protecting them sends the message  that you won't tolerate abuse -- from anyone. If you cave, your wife and child might see it as a weakness that they can manipulate too -- just a thought here.   
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 01:11:27 PM by InspirationHealing »

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napyhed

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Re: Is there a rational explanation for their behavior?
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2015, 01:33:21 PM »

Some psychologists I know give their patients "voicelessness" tests; i.e. trying to determine how much their patients are being heard by their families, and how much respect they are being given. Depending on how "voiceless" the test determines you are, is usually a predictor of the extent of the abuse, including a predictor for escalations. Not respecting your autonomy to make your own decisions (plus defining you via  verbal abuse/insults) seems HUGE in terms of "voicelessness".

Interesting! Especially for those of us who are emotionally abused.  As a good SG I wonder "is it me?"  For me this measure is a good answer.

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weeblewobbled

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Re: Is there a rational explanation for their behavior?
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2015, 01:47:26 PM »
She called me all kinds of names, told me how much they had spent on me and that it was time for me to pay up.

This is particularly vile imho . . . it was your parents' responsibility to raise you.  How they did it was THEIR CHOICE. 

I hear alot of minimizing of your own feelings in your post.  I used to do the same thing and I finally decided (after seeing somebody mention it here) that I would always be on my own side from here on out.  Does that mean I'm perfect, or that all my thinking is correct?  No.  But it does mean that I have a pretty good head on my shoulders and that I generally trust my own judgment and instincts.

Somehow certain PDs take the most responsible of their children and turn them into ungrateful, bratty villains while the GCs get away with murder (and are celebrated for their wit and charm).  It's crazy-making.

If you're worried about your wife I would take some time and go to counseling.  Go slow.  All of this revelation can turn your world upside down and make you question everything you ever thought you knew.  I would work on one thing at a time.  Things may be different than they seem.  For a little bit I worried that my husband was PD (because the sick, un-OOTF me picked him) but then I came to see that he mostly has alot of fleas from how he was raised (uHPD mom).  Otherwise he is a great guy.

I am wishing you peace and enlightenment with all this.

AGREED. Parents owe children a decent upbringing. Children do not owe the parents for providing that upbringing. Any decisions or sarifices they made as parents were their own, just as your decisions are yours. You've made choices that led you to a happy productive life. They have not done the same.

He thinks that your contributions are “peanuts?” then I'm glad you stopped burdening him with your generosity. Your mom has made it clear that she doesn’t appreciate your efforts. She didn't stop and think about the effort it took for you to earn the money to hand over to them, she just wanted you to keep handing it over.  You don’t have the right to question what they’re going to do with it, in her mind, you just need to keep handing it over.

When does the "owing" end?   Is it just going to be a never-ending cycle of you being at their beck and call because they happened to raise you?  I've said it before, parents owe children a decent, comfortable upbringing.  Children do not owe their parents eternal servitude to repay them for that upbringing

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Nightbird

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Re: Is there a rational explanation for their behavior?
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2015, 02:12:07 PM »
The time I walked in on her and my younger GC brother + older sister laughing, I was looking at them smiling expecting to be let in on the joke and got that look from her "why are you here to spoil the fun" and I just turned around and left.

This resonated with me because a similar thing happened to me years ago at a large family gathering (Thanksgiving, I believe) at my mother's house. I had to leave before dessert to go to work, but once I got to my car, I realized that I had forgotten my keys, so I went back inside.

My mother was in the middle of holding court, with close to twenty people listening intently to her from the dinner tables. When my mother saw me walk in, she froze, said, "Oh—I thought you'd left," and gave a fake little laugh. There was silence in the room, and everyone looked uncomfortable. It didn't occur to me until I was walking back to my car that she had been in the middle of dishing dirt about me to the family when I walked in.

(No mystery where my weird hangups about being ostracized came from, huh?)

Thank you for sharing your story, Still Confused. I echo the thought that the only rational explanation is that they are irrational. Irrational and just plain mean.

Strength!

Nighbird

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weeblewobbled

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Re: Is there a rational explanation for their behavior?
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2015, 02:29:24 PM »
The way my friend, Kristen, described it was she was the "unpaid staff" for the family. It was her job to do the housework, cook meals, provide extra money for the household starting with her first part time job as a teenager, and be the scapegoat that the household could blame when anything went wrong in the household. Her older sister was "delicate" and couldn't do the housework or get a job.

The experience still confused describes of walking into the room and hoping to be included in the joke that his mother and siblings were sharing only to get the "Why are you here, spoiling our fun?" look, was very similar to her experience. She compared it to being a waitress and walking up to a table where a family is laughing  and having run, only to get quiet as she approached. that's what she was, the waitress. She was there to serve a purpose, not to be included in the joy of the family.

The way she saw it, her mother cast her aside when she figured out that Kristen was strong and could take care of herself. Mom valued the feeling of being an "uber mom" who met all of her child's needs. Kristen met her own needs, so she didn't get her supply from Kristen. Older sister, however, gave Mom plenty of supply, so she was doted on. Also, there was the issue of Kristen being able to go out into the world and make something of herself professionally, something Sis and Mom never managed to do.  So there was a lot of resentment. She disliked Kristen because she didn't want Kristen to do more in life than Mom or her favorite.

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WhiteLight

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Re: Is there a rational explanation for their behavior?
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2015, 05:47:39 PM »
A rational explanation?

Maybe, sort of.

N mother.

Always being top dog.  Never losing control.  Only putting herself in position where she can gain somehow, or at very least neutral.  Always defensive.  Never truly give from the heart.  Always grudging, somehow.  Fear of love.  Fear of pain.  Never, ever wanting to face the truth of their own lives. 

Like a selfish amoeba-type organism, some primitive form of emotional life (for example think: crocodile).  Using human intelligence for selfish and/or cowardly purposes.

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Reluctant Dragon

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Re: Is there a rational explanation for their behavior?
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2015, 06:15:49 PM »
I look at it from a different angle. Of course their behavior is rational. That is it's perfectly rational to them, in their world. Because in their world they are the only person whose needs and feelings matter.  Which means you, the humble subject who's supposed to be thankful to be in their world, are the "irrational" one.

IMHO though, it's not a world they can't help creating. It's a world they CHOOSE to live in. Likewise they choose to manipulate, bully and abuse those who dare not to live life from their world's view.

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eleph35

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Re: Is there a rational explanation for their behavior?
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2015, 09:53:35 PM »
I look at it from a different angle. Of course their behavior is rational. That is it's perfectly rational to them, in their world. Because in their world they are the only person whose needs and feelings matter.  Which means you, the humble subject who's supposed to be thankful to be in their world, are the "irrational" one.

IMHO though, it's not a world they can't help creating. It's a world they CHOOSE to live in. Likewise they choose to manipulate, bully and abuse those who dare not to live life from their world's view.

Hi still_confused, it's me, Stillconfused!  :D

I largely agree with Reluctant Dragon's point of view. DH definitely agrees - he's always saying to me "They have a choice, regardless of their level of emotional intelligence". Otherwise PD's shouldn't be allowed out in society, should they? If they truly can't control themselves.

NM and NF haven't acknowledge any of my pain, much less said sorry for what they have done. Is that their choice? Yes. They would rather die not having ever seen me again than admit any fault, or acknowledge GC bro's terrible behavior. The other thing is that they surround themselves by enablers, who reinforce their viewpoint and their idea that they are the rational ones.

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FaithHopeLove24

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Re: Is there a rational explanation for their behavior?
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2015, 10:18:23 PM »
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. I may yet end up living an amazing life, but I'll always know deep down inside that I'll always be broken, no matter what I do form here on.

There is a Japanese bowl called kintsugi. Sometimes just referred to as a broken bowl. It is a peice of pottery that has been broken that is then pieced back together using gold in the cracks. As a philosophy it speaks to breakage and repair becoming part of the history of the object rather than something to disguise. I like to imagine those of us who have suffered abuse in a similar way. The bowls are far more beautiful after being broken and healed than they ever were before.

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Gujoro

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Re: Is there a rational explanation for their behavior?
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2015, 01:21:27 AM »
Faith HopeLove - kintsugi - that's beautiful. Thank you for sharing.

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still_confused

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Re: Is there a rational explanation for their behavior?
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2015, 01:24:15 AM »
Yes, brought a smile to my face. Thank you for that.

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Gujoro

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Re: Is there a rational explanation for their behavior?
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2015, 05:27:57 AM »
Just like Faith wrote, but i liked reading the wikipedia entry too:

Kintsugi (金継ぎ?) (Japanese: golden joinery) or Kintsukuroi (金繕い?) (Japanese: golden repair) is the Japanese art of fixing broken pottery with lacquer resin dusted or mixed with powdered gold, silver, or platinum a method similar to the maki-e technique.[1][2][3] As a philosophy it speaks to breakage and repair becoming part of the history of an object, rather than something to disguise.

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WhiteLight

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Re: Is there a rational explanation for their behavior?
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2015, 02:12:08 PM »
Liked the Japanese pottery analogy too, lovely. thank you.

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kande

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Re: Is there a rational explanation for their behavior?
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2015, 09:52:04 PM »
what a great insight!

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Frozen34

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Re: Is there a rational explanation for their behavior?
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2019, 02:01:01 AM »
I'm so sorry you had to deal with such a toxic family. Any abuse, is not ok, no matter what type - and to be honest my abuse from an ex was emotional, psychological, etc. and it made me permanently mentally ill, so I tend to think it's worse than physical abuse. (Granted, I kind of "inherited" my illness from my dad, it was always a part of me but hidden, the actual illness didn't surface until the relationship started)

I really related to some of what you said. My uDPD dad has complained to me about all sorts of things - all of which only came up after my mom died. He also threw her under the bus saying horrible things about her. Suddenly, he's complaining about how he had to raise me while my mom worked, how he didn't discipline me enough, how dare I not give him my address, get a PO Box, or travel over 2,000 miles to pick up some knickknacks he wants me to have. How dare I dislike his family members, who are mostly narcissistic. How dare I bring up the past, or confront his behavior, or his brother's terrible behavior, or in general, reality! And then he throws some delusions in there too about me. I've gone NC with him and his family... I shouldn't even listen to his voice messages to me because they only upset me. Luckily he doesn't know my address and cannot arrive at my door.

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StayWithMe

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Re: Is there a rational explanation for their behavior?
« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2019, 09:17:16 AM »
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You didn't *choose* to cause your mom complications during birth no more than you *chose* to wear diapers, go to the doctor when you were sick, need food, clothes and shoes, braces, glasses or any of the many other things kids need.

the next time she says this, you could ask whether she followed all of the doctor's orders?

And if you're feeling particularly feisty, you could add "because you have shown that can't follow instructions sometimes."

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Ladymm

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Re: Is there a rational explanation for their behavior?
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2019, 11:03:55 AM »
For me the verse which best summons the subject in question is from a Marilyn Manson (hate him or like him) song:
"I can't decide if you wear me out or wear me well; I just feel like I'm condemned to live someone elses hell"

When I feel like the lyric goes I know its mindfuck time and I try to distance myself. My recovery is slow and I still get triggered. I don't wish this kind of suffering to no one. Feels like being a judge on a murder trial of a killer with lack of solid proof and with the killer maintaining his innocence. But the evidence points to him and in your heart you know he is guilty.

I can't decide if you wear me out or wear me well
I just feel like I'm condemned to wear someone else's hell