Having a hard time with this..

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No.

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Having a hard time with this..
« on: April 06, 2015, 05:10:42 PM »
I'm having a hard time with "faith" right now. My background in this area is pretty involved. I have had what I consider two "awakening" moments that convinced me at the time that God is real and I accepted Jesus into my heart, as they say. In relation to my uBPDmom, who I am REALLY struggling with right now:
- when I was 8, I accepted Christ for the first time. I was at a friend's church, where they gave me a little brochure and whatnot. When I got home and my mom saw it, she made comments that I was weird, rolled her eyes and had a tone of disgust.
- For years, I kept my relationship with God tucked away, praying for strength through the abuse..it helped. I also did a lot of praying and becoming closer to god through a rough breakup with my first love when I was a teen. I believe "he" kept me from suicide.
- Over time, my methods of coping changed, as they do. I found alcohol, different activities, moved away, a job, etc, and I did not go to church at all. Nevertheless, not losing faith. Just not participating in the relationship as much.
- Then later in my 30's, new awakening of faith. I felt like I really "got it", my relationship with God was a lot better, I participated in good bible studies and life improved a lot, spiritually and emotionally. During this time my mom was also critical. She said that my belief was close minded. (she was mimicking her wife's beliefs at that point).

BUT NOW, I have been going through depression and anxiety from C-PTSD flashbacks and dealing with issues from my childhood that have only just recently come to the surface. There is a lot of pain affiliated with how my mom treated and treats me, but also just her lack of love and empathy. I have gotten to a point where I avoid her, and it gives me a lot of anxiety when holidays or expected visits are coming up. I'm to the point where I am trying to stay away from people who harm me in any way.

Well, recently, (and I won't go into the long history, but let's suffice it to say, she is mimicking her latest husband in her religious system these days), she is taking it upon herself to call out my obvious withdrawal from her and start preaching Joyce Meyer and whatnot..like "what your'e thinking about" and "forgiveness" and topics related to how I should be letting all of the stuff she did and does go, because it's what god wants. I called her out, asking well, do you remember when I was actually watching and reading quite a bit of joyce meyer in the past? And she forcefully raised her voice and said "well did you LEARN anything FROM IT?"

Well, this is the exact topic I struggle with with God. Like yesterday, hearing the easter message, etc..I UNDERSTAND the message and yes, even believe it, have at times internalized it to a decent depth. (I feel like those who internalize it FULLY would not be on a site questioning it, or even for support, but would be able to let all of this stuff go. That is where my guilt comes it  ::) But yesterday I was just basically hearing that anyone and everyone are wiped clean with a clean slate if they will just ask God and believe. What the pastor, and the people who got to pick what goes in the bible, are leaving out is, what about the abused? It says God will take care of those who abuse children. Well what if they just ask for forgiveness right now? I guess he WON't anymore. And why are the abused excused from asking forgiveness from their victims, but all they have to do is ask forgiveness from god and all is forgiven? Why would god forget about how all of us who have been systematically abused, brainwashed, and put down, who struggle so much over it. And the answer for us as well is, you are not deserving, but all you have to do is ask forgiveness and you have a clean slate as well. Same as the abusers. More shame and guilt. Why is it not mentioned (in sermons) that when you have wronged others, it is a responsibility to recognize and apologize, at least to the best you know how? Isn't that what you are supposed to do in order to "receive" Jesus in the first place? Why is asking forgiveness so all important but not for abusers?? When I was in recovery, I "made amends" to my mom and she has used that against me ever since. My amends were "not being forgiving" enough. Never again will I have this kind of thinking or interaction with my mom.

My ramblings are certainly not meant to offend, and I believe God knows me and knows my questions as I have the same prayer to him and he knows where I am coming from. I am feeling pretty hopeless about ever finding peace. I just don't understand all the guilt and shame falling back on the victim. The only option is to go NC and push away the rest of the family as well. Is that going to make for a happy life? I know somehow I've got to "let it all go"..I'm just trying to figure out how right now.

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peacefulspirit

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Re: Having a hard time with this..
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2015, 02:28:55 AM »
Let me just say, you should feel no shame or guilt over what you are questioning because when someone hurts us, WE ALL FEEL THIS SAME WAY!!!  SMITE them!!  :upsidedown: 

But our God is a God of love and forgiveness.  And if you read nothing else, know this-forgiveness is not for the abuser, it's for the abused!!!  When we release the anger and bitterness we feel for the abuse perpetrated upon us, it allows God to blanket us with a peace we cannot otherwise experience!  You are looking to avenge the abuse, but one thing I have learned about PD's-they always come out on top because they are willing to do unimaginable things that non's simply won't do! 

And do not be manipulated into accepting someone else's version of forgiveness.  It does not mean we simply forgive and continue to allow abuse, forget it ever happened, and go on with life.  Forgiveness simply means we no longer hold their sin against them.  It helps to really pray for the person because God will whisper in your spirit a comfort like you've never known!  Your mom is sick, indeed it's mental and she'll never admit/face it, but she is ill nonetheless.  I can promise you one thing, the sooner you forgive, the sooner you can be happy with who you are and your life.  Once we forgive, their Crazy just doesn't get to us quite as easily.

Now don't get me wrong, I still have times where I feel anger and pain due to my uBPDh.  He finds new ways to hurt me everyday.  And yet he runs around proclaiming the love of God to anyone with ears to hear!  However, I take comfort in the fact that God knows my heart and HIS heart!!!  And if my H or your mother were really walking with God in all power and authority granted by God, I'm pretty sure their lives would look a lot different!  Christ isn't a phase, He's a lifestyle!

So forgive and pray for them.  Remember, Jesus gave his life in a horrific crucifixion so you and I could be forgiven.  There is no big sin or little sin, Jesus died for ALL sin.  He's only asking us to forgive, not give our life :)

Something to think about...

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farfromthetree

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Re: Having a hard time with this..
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2015, 07:55:32 AM »
Hello No.  :wave: Please know that being a believer does not mean you have an obligation to be in any kind of relationship with your FOO.

I want to say so much to you but a lot of it is summed up on this website http://www.luke173ministries.org/

Take heart. Christ said "My yoke is easy and my burden is light."

The only one hard on themselves is you!  ;D


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No.

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Re: Having a hard time with this..
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2015, 12:02:41 PM »
Thank you both for your insight. I guess one thing I didn't explain very well is, I HAVE been able to forgive the past incidents. I know my mom probably didn't intend to abuse me. However, it's the ONGOING hurtful overt messages, and sometimes covert, that TRIGGER the past pain. If I am around my mom, it HAPPENS. But, for me to stay away, or do what I want to do and go NC completely, whatever my explanation she will turn it around on me, make me out to be the evil horrible daughter, etc..I would like to find that peace that comes with forgiveness, as I have before many times, but right now, I need to be AWAY from the perpetrator, not matter how "washed clean" she is with God or forgiven by me. Does that make sense? How to I explain it to her? She wants to "talk" about all this. I do not want to.

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farfromthetree

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Re: Having a hard time with this..
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2015, 12:24:08 PM »
If she has a PD, then explaining is futile. A person with PD needs to be told the rules, the boundaries, as in "if you do this you will get that..." and so forth. They need to be TOLD what's in it for them, and what they can and cannot do.

Explaining yourself will only dig the hole deeper.

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No.

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Re: Having a hard time with this..
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2015, 12:28:05 PM »
When I tell her I don't want to meet with her for this conversation she is pushing me to have, should I just put it off over and over, or just say "I am not going to do that?" When it comes down to it, I'm just not sure what to do or say. (without setting her off or me being the bad guy). She's already hoovered, but now that I have not responded, she is triangulating my sister, being super sweet and innocent and cool with her... ::)

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farfromthetree

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Re: Having a hard time with this..
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2015, 03:51:04 PM »
You WILL be the bad guy for a while. It takes some time of NC before the person with the PD finds someone new to manipulate. And they will only do that after they try over and over again and find they're having NO EFFECT.

This choice is not for the faint of heart. Only you can know if it's worth it.

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No.

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Re: Having a hard time with this..
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2015, 05:01:58 PM »
I'm just VLC at the moment. She just said something lately that was the straw that broke the camel's back. Something about when she said what she said I completely was over trying to have a relationship with her. I cannot conjure up any feeling of any kind for her whatsoever. I'm just sort of numb. I just want to move to another country and forget it all.

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Upstream

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Re: Having a hard time with this..
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2015, 01:20:50 PM »
Hi No. ( i really love your 'name' : just No.)
I can really understand how you feel. It's about fairness. How come she can be so terrible and 'get away with it' by asking God's forgiveness. I don't know how much forgiveness she really has recieved if she hasn't really repented. How can she have really repented and keep treating you the way she does??? I can't really judge her sincerity, but God can. Anyway, i think what we really want is that they get it how hurtful they have been!  It's not really that we want them to get paid back every ounce of suffering they caused us ( which is kinda like what forgiveness does), it is that we want them to really grasp how much suufering they have caused us. I think that even IF God forgives her (or anyone else) that there will come a day of reckoning when her whe life will flash before her eyes snd she WILL GET IT. Maybe she won't be punished for it ( through forgiveness) but i believe she will grasp the depths of despair she has caused. God is capable of forgiving, having her slate wiped clean means she is spared the punishment, but i don't think she will be able to skip understanding the sorrow and suffering she has caused.

 :bighug:

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We3

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Re: Having a hard time with this..
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2015, 05:55:54 PM »
In dealing with the Israelites God gave and gave, forgave and nurtured for centuries.  Eventually they (as an overall group) rejected His Son.  At that point the Son said God rejected them and moved on to a new group (some were Israelites) who would recognize His Son and despite inherited sin try to comply with God's requirements. 

There are many ideas preached about God and many religious interpretations.  That doesn't mean they are all accurate.  For a long long time I let my own guilt guide my interpretation of What I thought  God wanted.  My BPD/NPD used my spirituality against me.  It is a weapon I have had to learn/am learning to take away from him.

There comes a time when you just have to see the truth for what it is, not the PD's twisted version or what they convince others of.  We each stand accountable only to our maker.  She isn't really your judge, don't give her that position when it belongs to someone else.

Just a thought.



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No.

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Re: Having a hard time with this..
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2015, 01:17:08 AM »
I was watching some other helpful videos, and this one came up..I went ahead and watched it because the title applied. uBPDmom obsessed with control..surprisingly, it has some scripture and lots of stuff that helped put some things in perspective. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JAUzP4b1X0


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seekingvision

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Re: Having a hard time with this..
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2015, 12:55:43 AM »
The trauma in our past can make lasting changes in the biochemical landscape of the brain.  Even if you believe, this does not mean you will always feel good.  With time and under better circumstances I hope that you will feel better.  With time and healing most people can recover from having long boughts of negative events and less than optimum brain chemisty.  Others might need medication to put things in balance until they can order their life circumstances better and deal with issues.  For example, my mother after loosing my father did "okay" then about a year later, things took a bad turn for her emotionally.  Some sleep aids and another med helped her get back on track physically and then she could cope emotionally and finish grieving and healing.

Look at Paul.  He describes torment and despair feelings and all sorts of suffering.  He had a problem he prayed to be relieved of and this did not happen.  He recounts various challenges physically in addition to the people who pursued him in each city. 

Read the Beattitudes, in Matthew  1-12.  Its not all rosy all of the time.  Yet God blesses those who suffer and brings them out of it.

Yea tho I walk through the valley............

It does not say there will not be a valley, it says He will be with us and we will walk through that valley.   Do not feel like your faith suffers because you don't feel great.  Just do what is right and trust that God's path will lead to better times.  But don't feel guilty for brain chemisty. 

If someone has back pain from a car wreck we do not say they have a lack of faith because there is a residual physical manifestation of the damage they suffered in that event.  Neither should you or anyone else be accused of not having faith for having redidual brain chemistry due to psychological injuries.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 12:58:05 AM by seekingvision »

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Pariah

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Re: Having a hard time with this..
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2015, 02:36:59 PM »
And why are the abused excused from asking forgiveness from their victims, but all they have to do is ask forgiveness from god and all is forgiven? Why would god forget about how all of us who have been systematically abused, brainwashed, and put down, who struggle so much over it. And the answer for us as well is, you are not deserving, but all you have to do is ask forgiveness and you have a clean slate as well. Same as the abusers. More shame and guilt. Why is it not mentioned (in sermons) that when you have wronged others, it is a responsibility to recognize and apologize, at least to the best you know how? Isn't that what you are supposed to do in order to "receive" Jesus in the first place? Why is asking forgiveness so all important but not for abusers?? When I was in recovery, I "made amends" to my mom and she has used that against me ever since. My amends were "not being forgiving" enough. Never again will I have this kind of thinking or interaction with my mom.

I picked this portion out to comment simply because I am struggling with the same scenario. I want to please God and be forgiven by Him. I also know that the Word says to forgive everybody their transgressions. I've found that every time I forgive my sister, it's as if she disregards and tramples that forgiveness and continues business as usual on me.

This last time I prayed and nearly agonized about our relationship to God and felt it was necessary to go to her and try to put our relationship on the right track. I thought everything was fine until I learned that she was accusing me of yet something else behind my back to my brother. It is something so bad that I can hardly talk about the specifics of it right now because it conflicts with my moral / spiritual personal code. Something that I would never do. I said something out of anger to my aunt and promptly forgot about it as my anger subsided. She must have told my sister about it and instead of coming to me to discuss it, she spun it into some scenario that makes me look really ugly. She went to my brother, but would not come to me.

I think that people who grew up and lived in dysfunctional families are hyper vigilant and instinctively know when something from the game changes. The last time I made a visit to them ... I felt it. Some of them were very careful in their conversation. My sister said a lot of strange stuff to me that did not make any sense.

None of them would tell me what she was accusing me of.  I had to ask careful questions and pray. Keeping accusations a secret between them was a game I learned that they play. My role was to figure it out. I subconsciously recognized the game. It was the "I gotcha game". I finally figured out what her accusations were and was completely horrified. When I asked my brother (who had been avoiding my questions) why? He did not give me a satisfactory explanation at all. The only thing he said to me was "Well, there has to be some level of forgiveness here". This confirmed to me that I hit the nail on the head, but he never really acknowledged his part in what I deem as a conspiracy against me...in an effort to malign my character.

So, the next time I hear the "forgiveness" demand, I am going to say, "The level of forgiveness I display to you will depend upon your level of acknowledgement to me of what you've done". Forgiveness is always easier when someone acknowledges their wrong. I also recognize that one opens themselves up when asking for forgiveness from somebody else, because some folks use your confession against you. It's hard to be on either end of this spectrum, but it is somewhat of a trade-off. I have something that they desire (forgiveness) and they have something (acknowledgment) that I desire. But in the end, they will receive my forgiveness, just not my desire to be around them and their hurtful actions any longer. God did not say that we have to stay in that type of relationship.

When I came to Christ, I sought forgiveness by acknowledging that I sinned against Him. Being human, I still have to acknowledge my wrongs to Him and will probably have to do so until the day I die. I struggle not to sin, but when I do whether it be in attitude  or ignorance or knee-jerk feelings, I must acknowledge it to Him and ask Him to change me.

I pray to be the ideal, super-spiritual person that God would like for me to be. Those type of people readily and completely forgive from their heart ...with or without acknowledgment from their perpetrators. I ask God for the blessing to be that sort of person. But my humanity and 40 years of criticism and nit-picking stacking has me not feeling very well in this regard. I always wonder...what's next?