New and already annoyed

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Able1212

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New and already annoyed
« on: July 25, 2015, 04:28:46 PM »
I registered here because I wanted to clear up something I read on this site.  In the main Sibling Abuse page, under Identifying Sibling Child Abuse, it reads:

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"...Children are also likely to engage in inappropriate behaviors towards their peers when they become sexually curious and good parental intervention without shaming can help protect the weaker siblings and help the children learn appropriate social behaviors for life. Incidents like this which do not become chronic are a normal part of child development and early parental intervention is the best approach."

I don't understand how inappropriate sexual acts on a "weaker" sibling is considered a NORMAL part of child development!  I think the word COMMON is a much more appropriate word here.  Molesting your sibling is NOT normal!  Common, perhaps, but not normal!  Tell the kid that got molested by their sibling that it was just some good old normal behavior.  Jesus.  Who wrote this? 

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xredshoesx

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Re: New and already annoyed
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2015, 09:00:58 PM »
i want to welcome you to the forum able1212.  i am sorry for your experience so far. the statistics on childhood sexual abuse at the hands of other another juvenile (and possibly family) member are horribly under-reported because it is hard for parents to acknowledge the difference between normal curiosity and chronic behaviors, or to admit a problem exists at all, or are at the root of the problem.  we have flagged the article for our editing team to make sure the article is up-to-date in both  current statitistics and defintions.

i think the important point to delinate here is the difference between normal childhood curiousity about bodies and how they may be different vs another child using physical/ sexual abuse as a tool of power over someone else. chidren need to be taught that the differences exist in a way that does not shame them for being curious, and they also need to be taught that the bodies of others need to be respected, as well as the parts of their own bodies that others MUST respect.  our society as a whole does a poor job of this, which may account for the high numbers of reported abuse between siblings/juvenile family members.  making something taboo makes it more attractive to a child and children who do not have healthy boundaries can and will take advantage of other children in multiple ways.

molestation, as mentioned in your post, would be on the abnormal end of the spectrum, and considered a chronic behavior.  sometimes children who behave sexually inappropriately are acting out the things that are done to them.  i think the important parts of the article focus on parents monitoring their children and listening to them/observing their behavior both TOWARDS others (if they are fearful their child is being inappropriate) and AROUND others (if they think their child has been touched inappropriately).  i think that if the article could be improved, it could maybe touch on the after effects we suffer as adults and how not being able to property process and heal from these experiences (plus the invalidation we received if we had the courage enough to tell and then nothing happened).

i know there has been a lot of media attention lately on this topic where sibling abuse may have been swept under the rug to downplay the truth.  this makes me so angry and was very triggering set of events for me, hearing the way the victims were basically ignored because it was a 'good boy'.

i say these things as a survivor of childhood sexual abuse from a relative and someone who was touched inappropriately by an older sibling.  i was made to feel shameful for telling on him because 'boys will be boys' and it must of been something i had done to make him do what he did.

if something happend to you as a child to make you this angry, maybe it's time for you to tell what happened to you.  i hope that if you continue to post here  you will feel safe enough to share your own experiences. there are other members at Out of the FOG have also experienced childhood sexual abuse at the hands of a relative, and the deep shame that comes from feeling 'bad' and 'dirty' from these exeperiences sometimes shape our relationship decisions as adults.  knowing you are not alone is a powerful way to begin healing.

you mentioned that you thought the article should change.  how would you rewrite it?

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Able1212

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Re: New and already annoyed
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2015, 04:29:32 PM »
Thanks for your reply xredshoesx.  I’ve heard the word ‘normal’ used in this context before and I cringe whenever I hear it or read it.  Also, I’m sick of sibling abuse being discussed as just immature behavior by developing children.  Sibling abuse in its many forms happens at all ages.
 
Anyway, sexual curiosity during development is normal, as in, “Gee, I wonder what it’s like to have sex.”  I’ll give them that, but the article on your site reads that performing/acting out an inappropriate sexual curiosity is a normal part of development.  And that I have a problem with. Common yes, but not normal.   Common ≠ Normal.  Murder is common, see what I’m saying?  As a side note, I didn’t read how sexual abuse usually develops over a period of time and is usually not just a random spur of the moment thing.  Perhaps another conversation but if you are calling the actual act normal, then you are calling the steps leading to the abuse (or premeditation) normal as well.  To me that’s crazy talk.  Freudian thinking included.  And yes, juveniles are capable of premeditation.
         
There should be a distinction made between anatomical exploration and sexual experimentation.  Paper’s rarely make this distinction clear.  My nephew touching my dog’s nipples when he was two was just funny because he didn’t know what they were and was curious.  Not knowing what something is and touching it is completely different than sexual experimentation.  Hence the word sexual; meaning they already understand the concept of sex. But unfortunately that is how these definitions from peer reviewed papers tend to convey these behaviors.  The line between exploration and sexual experimentation gets extremely blurred by definitions of abuse by psychologists. This unfortunately gives siblings this behavioral grey area to act in, which in the event of abuse only protects the abuser.
 
Again, sexual curiosity is normal, but calling a physical act that has the ability to seriously mess up a person for years or even their entire life normal, is just wrong.  By calling this normal behavior, you are telling the parents and the abuser that the act was not just forgivable but that it is appropriate and even expected.  But forgivable by whom?  The parents?  Parents will forgive anything their kids do.  That should not be the focus.  Ask the abused kid ten or twenty years later if it’s forgivable.  That should be the test.  The focus should be on the victim, but using words like normal just turns the victim into an inanimate object, not worthy of any opinion; which is usually how they were treated by their abusive sibling to begin with.  A simple concept that I’m astonished is not taken into account most of the time.
   
To parents all kids are innocent, but anyone who grew up with siblings knows that from the perspective of the kids, age has a substantial bearing.  It’s as if behaviors at a certain age are exempt from having abusive intent because “they don’t understand the consequences.”  It’s like giving someone no jail time for murder because “murder is a part of life and were all capable of doing it and the murderer didn’t know what he/she did was wrong.”  All bull.  If they didn’t know it was wrong they should especially be locked up!  They should feel ashamed for that.  I get that shaming a kid might make them want to do it more, but its sad to see parents put a kid on time-out for throwing Lego’s but not for sexually experimenting with their sibling.  Its usually a short talk and then its swept under the rug.  To me, shaming is not that bad of a thing to do.  The abused sibling often feels shame throughout their life after being abused, so it’s only fair the abuser feels a little too.  Its tough, but were talking about a serious problem here that like you said gets swept under the rug too often. 
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 10:47:02 AM by xredshoesx »

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Latchkey

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Re: New and already annoyed
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2015, 10:38:58 PM »
One of the worst problems I dealt with in my blended family were my two step sons inappropriate sexual conduct towards each other. It was chronic and started pretty young. I tried to get them apart constantly and they would drift back together the next time they were alone, constant time outs, talks about the seriousness of this, and other punishments for doing it and rewards for staying away from eachother -- did not seem to deter them for long. We did not allow them to sit together on the couch or near eachother, forbid them from playing in their room together with door closed. Outlawed wrestling which boys love to do, turned off the TV with even the slightest of sexual content- including many Disney and Nick shows with kissing etc.

We did interventions with therapists and were very strict about not allowing any kind of sexual play or role playing. My ex their Dad is NPD/ASPD and he downplayed it for a long time but I wouldn't let it go away.

The thing was- the younger one was the victim and then he became the instigator as well. Boys are only 11 and 12 now and I don't see them in private anymore but they are the older sib to my bio son 4 and it's a constant concern if he were ever to be left alone with his brothers. Their Dad tells me they are doing better and he didn't see the sexual acting out this summer when they were with him so I am hoping all the interventions actually worked.

I had psychologists down play it but I kept fighting for it to be brought up. It is not something people are generally comfortable talking about but there are brave and smart parents and adult sibs who were victims of abuse who keep talking.

There is a sign of juvenille bipolar (which one of the boys was diagnosed as "emerging bipolar") which is sexually inappropriate behavior but acting out anything with a sibling is something that needs to be stopped right away.

As a parent, it was one of the most disturbing things I ever dealt with.

We do understand your concerns and are going to re-write the article.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 12:59:17 AM by Latchkey »
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Able1212

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Re: New and already annoyed
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2015, 01:36:35 PM »
Iím very sorry you have to go through this with your family.  Mothers and fathers should never have to deal with this.  Parents donít want to get involved because itís such a taboo behavior that you end up just pursing your lips and shaking your head and saying ďUuugh, f@#$.Ē  But you canít stop there.  You must keep intervening.
 
If you think one of the siblings is being forced or coerced by the other, that kid is most likely going through hell right now and will be for time to come.  Please talk to him and tell him you know how difficult things have been for him, but that you will never leave him.  I wish I had heard that when I was going through it.  Fourteen and fifteen are crucial ages for intervention (going into high school!)
   
I will say the fact that your husband found out this was happening is a huge advantage in preventing the long term affects these things can have on a personís psychological well-being.  And thatís what weíre doing all this for, to prevent the long term affects.  And by long term I mean LONG term.  People are surprised when the fifty year old man kills himself over the constant haunting of his childhood.  Itís really real and it happens all the time.  Itís crazy.  Itís absolutely crazy how things that happen in your first or second decade of life will cause your death thirty, forty years down the road.  Not to mention the crappy life you live internally that entire time.  I donít mean to scare anyone but this is what happens.
 
When it stops, and it will eventually stop, and they get older, it will have an impact on their relationship.  It just never gets forgotten and itís the pink elephant in the room forever.  This is why preventing this stuff from happening is such a big deal.  It destroys the sibling bond.  They will no longer be brothers in their eyes.  Its crazy.  I canít stop saying its crazy, but thatís exactly what it is.
   
Donít feel the need to change anything on your site on my account.  Iím just one person and sensitive to these things. I donít let people downplay serious issues (especially therapists, shrinks, and PhDís).  Their job is to diminish and generalize in hopes the patient/client will take the bait.  They canít tell you itís hopeless and to never come back.  Theyíd never get paid, or worse sued.  It often comes across as them trivializing peopleís behaviors, which is never helpful.  Even if it's common behavior.       
 
You guys having attempted to deal with it is a huge deal.  Good for you!  I wasnít fortunate enough to have parents ever get involved with the sibling dynamics going on in our home.  I really wish they would have.  As grown adult Iím still disappointed in them for being such unaware, uninvolved parents.  But you guys arenít, and I think thatís pretty awesome.

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SPinSC

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Re: New and already annoyed
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2015, 01:51:40 PM »
I kind of understand what makes you upset about the phrasing.

My husband was the victim of sexual and physical abuse at the hands of both his brothers. One was about 10 years older, the other 2 years older. It's why I have mixed emotions about their mother (father died when my hub was young, before anything started).

I sincerely think it was so taboo that their mom denied it ever happened (allowing it to go on happening). Like the physical violence (including a knife chase where his bro nearly killed him and the hollering was for hub to leave violent, armed brother alone!), the sexual violence was not seen, despite the evidence. It was not addressed. Hub got no therapy to cope. It's a big player in why I think my hub is uBPD. He was victimized over and over, tried to get help or at least get the brothers to stop, ended up moving out at 13 to get peace, by 20 was in a bad marriage to (I think, at least) a narc of a woman who finally used him up and spit him out.

I don't wonder WHY my uBPD may be PD, I think it would be more shocking if he wasn't. But, to call anything beyond ~ hey, yours looks different than mine ~ normal instead of common is an invitation to look the other way when you see the first signs, just like uBPD's mother did.

It seems like a small issue, but sometimes it's the difference between reading, flashing and triggering and getting some really necessary help. Is there anyone who can edit that section?
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arianna

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Re: New and already annoyed
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2015, 01:57:53 PM »
I don't think it's normal for a child to behave this way.  It may be normal for a child to have thoughts about it, just as it may be normal for a child to want to strangle their siblings.  But acting on it as far as I know isn't normal and should be taken very seriously.

It is of course important to recognize that the abuser is also a child and needs help.  I was abused by a sibling who had been abused by another relative and it's something no one in the family has ever talked about and they all refuse to talk about it.  It's easier for them to talk about pretty much anything else under the sun.  We were both kids in a horrible situation and I'm not angry, I just want to have a smallish conversation about it. Apparently no one wants to go there.

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eclipse

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Re: New and already annoyed
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2015, 02:43:32 AM »
Jesus.  Who wrote this?

That would be me - not him ;)

I like your suggestion to replace "normal" with "common".

Thanks for your suggestion. If you have any other constructive suggestions to improve the content on OOTF please let us know.






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eclipse

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Re: New and already annoyed
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2015, 02:47:23 AM »

PS sometimes the abuser is the reporting parent and the sexually curious kid is the victim - just sayin'


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Able1212

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Re: New and already annoyed
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2015, 10:16:07 AM »
Were talking about sibling abuse here.  But yes child abuse by a parent also happens and can influence/trigger a sexually curious kid to project their frustration with the abusive parent onto their sibling in a sexual way.  Sort of punishing the parent by abusing the sibling. Good point...if that's what you were saying.

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arianna

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Re: New and already annoyed
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2015, 11:54:04 AM »
A sexually curious child who behaves inappropriately is still a child needing support.   A child who is violent towards another is obviously hurting for some reason.  But   the pain the other victimized child feels isn't going to change by changing how we view the abusive child. 

My parents created an abusive household situation in a whole mess of ways.  We all reacted to it in different ways and more or less, the older kids hurt the younger ones, one way or another.  Nothing about it was normal. 

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Able1212

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Re: New and already annoyed
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2015, 08:38:00 PM »
Yes, all kids need help, whether their the victim or the one acting inappropriately. My estranged brother of many many years was diagnosed with Oppositional Defiant disorder (should have been conduct disorder) when he was young. 

He was one of these scary kids that you just couldn't trust so parents took him to a child psych.  Like he would torture animals he bought from the pet store (bought solely to torture) which is never a good sign, he/we were kicked out of the local pool once when we were kids because he lured me into the deep end and tried to drown me.  A lady saw this happening and grabbed him and let me surface, she then told my mother and the lifeguard and we were told to leave.  I remember the lady being so pissed at my mother.  Another time he climbed up to the top of this twenty foot high slide at the park (they don't make them this high anymore for good reason) and he yelled at me to climb up the latter (I was so scared to climb that high) and when I got to the top of the latter he slowly peeled my fingers back while starring me in the eyes until i fell and hit the ground.  It was straight out of the movie "The Good Son".  I was lucky I only bruised my ribs and didn't break my neck.  He came down and told me if I told on him he would kill me.  Another time he tried to pay his friends (with dope) to put me in the hospital.  Thankfully one of his friends refused and the plan broke up i guess.  But knowing him he was serious about it.  He would handcuff me and hold me down and spray WD-40 in my mouth and eyes just watch me squeal and plead for him to stop.  Then he'd laugh all evil like and walk a way, then come back and throw a handcuff key at me and tell me to get out by myself.  Then take his cuffs back.  He would bang my head against the ground repeatedly until I would get knocked out.  To this day I think he wanted to either kill me or give me brain damage.  Either was fine with him.  The list goes on and on.  Beat me with belts, strangled me, then threaten me to keep quiet.  If I told, which was few and far between, I would really get it.  The sexual abuse was actually not the worst part of my childhood.  The physical and emotional trauma far outweighs it.  That's not to diminish anyone else's experience.  This is just mine.  My brother is a special case though, not all sibs are this messed up. 

The really messed up thing is I had a talk with my Dad a few years ago and he admitted to knowing about the "abuse" (his words) that went on!  He said it as if he was clever or something for knowing about it.  I was like really Dad, you knew about it and you did nothing?  Then he just got up and walked away but said "What do you want me to do about it?" dismissively, then patted me on the back and said "You'll be fine".    He didn't know what was really going on though.  I guess that's tough love.

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Bloomie

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Re: New and already annoyed
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2015, 09:19:13 PM »
Able1212 - Thank you for pointing to an area in the information here that can be reviewed and improved. One of the things that makes this such a special place is that we have forum admins and mods that volunteer their time, work very hard, and truly do care and want to make this a safe and supportive place for all of us and for the information here to be as accurate and helpful as possible. Everyone's respectful questions and input are so important.

I just wanted to weigh in on what you have experienced, and so bravely shared about, at your brother's hands and your father's response to it and say I am so very sorry! What a horrible nightmare of repeated experiences of abuse at the hands of your brother and neglect on your father's (and mother's it seems) part. A minimum standard in our job as parents is providing protection and safety. Your parents and the medical/psychological community evaluating your brother and your safety being in a home with him failed you miserably! No one deserves the kind of treatment you have experienced. Ever. Period. There is no excuse for knowing this kind of abuse is taking place and turning a blind eye as a parent. Ever. Period.

What I see in you is a tender compassion and deep concern that no child ever have to be subjected to such things and a lion's heart to make sure there is no watering down, or softening, the description of the life long aftermath of experiences like this. We cannot change what has happened to us, we can do everything possible to remove ourselves from harms way and heal, but the scars will always be there. My hope is that you will find this community of folks a great support and healing balm as you spend time here.

"You can understand and have compassion for someone and still not want a relationship with them."
Amanda E. White, LPC @therapyforwomen

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Chanah

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Re: New and already annoyed
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2015, 02:23:35 PM »
Jesus.  Who wrote this?

That would be me - not him ;)

I like your suggestion to replace "normal" with "common".

Thanks for your suggestion. If you have any other constructive suggestions to improve the content on OOTF please let us know.

Yes.  Actually, we are talking about the difference between "normal" and "normative."  Something is normative if it is commonplace.  Something is normal it is commonplace and socially/culturally acceptable.  Sexual touching among children is normative, but not culturally acceptable and therefore not normal.

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eclipse

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Re: New and already annoyed
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2015, 01:44:50 AM »

FYI: in response to this thread The site was updated months ago to replace "normal" with "common". 


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La Puma

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Re: New and already annoyed
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2015, 09:18:40 PM »
I have a memory of an incident that happened when I was perhaps three years old.  I was playing outside with a little boy from down the street and remember telling him that I had to go in the house to pee.  "You don't have to go in the house," he said, "you can pee-pee right here."  I said something to the effect that I couldn't take my pants off outside, and he responded that I didn't have to, I could just take my wee-wee out and pee against the tree (that was right next to us).   

Just at that moment my mother must have looked out the window and seen what was going on.  She called my name in a tone that communicated quite clearly that I was doing something wrong. I can still remember the emotional impact clearly, and I'm sure it's why this incident got embedded in my memory.

What's interesting to me in this incident is my feeling that if I didn't have a penis there must be something wrong with me.  I wonder how experiences of this type, if they are common, help to imprint women with feelings of being lesser than male.  Just wondering. Slightly off topic, I suppose, but related.   
« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 08:22:07 PM by Latchkey »

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arianna

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Re: New and already annoyed
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2015, 10:19:49 PM »
I am sure this kind of thing happens often and it's easy to say it can't be helped.  It was basically an innocent thing but still harmful.  I think parents are responsible for protecting their children from this sort of thing.  Kids need supervision.  And they need a lot of parenting to the point where 1.they wouldn't have that conclusion no matter what other kids say and 2. they would immediately tell the parent what happened if the parent wasn't aware of it.

makes me mad.  sorry if what i said wasn't on topic or appropriate.  i just imagine parents brushing off this type of thing as being nothing or unavoidable.

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Latchkey

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Re: New and already annoyed
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2015, 08:20:21 PM »
We are locking this thread because the original issue with an article on Sibling Abuse has been actively discussed and dealt with by members and staff.

If members would like to start a topic dealing with Sibling Abuse or with a sub topic relating to PDs and sexual abuse then please use one of the boards below for this where it will get a better repsonse.

Thanks for understanding.
Pray for the dead and fight like hell for the living.
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There is no greater agony than bearing an untold story inside you.
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When we have the courage to do what we need to do, we unleash mighty forces that come to our aid.