Idea for getting out sanely and safely

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chocolateraspberry

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Re: Idea for getting out sanely and safely
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2016, 01:33:35 AM »
Hhaw, you wrote you were happy,, "then the mask came off."

What did that look like? What happened *before you even thought of filing* to show you his true nature?

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hhaw

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Re: Idea for getting out sanely and safely
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2016, 02:14:41 AM »
CR:

There was over the top krazy koo koo lying lying, followed by  an assault, followed by denials, followed by threats, followed by domestic terrorism  followed by shutting down his company with 40plus employees days before Christmas so he could sit on me 24/7 and let me know how badly I'd be set on fire, destroyed, blown up, shot, snatched, ruined, left homeless, etc, and the threats went on. 

He woke me up at all hours of the night, he was nice, then cruel,wanting to pray together,  then crazy then nice and I was vomiting in my mouth when he was nice, bc I knew he might as well be stabbing me in the back with a rusty dull blade while he was doing it.... I knew what he was, and I didn't need to doubt any longer if I ever had.  He followed me, had me followed, lied about attending sex addiction meetings, then insisted on telling me stories about his friends who attended, and what their stories were, bleck.  I didn't care, I just wanted out. OUT OUT OUT

He said a lot of crazy things, and I stopped listening, but he still managed to jerk me back into panic mode over and over again... esp around legal hearings. 

He drove by the house at all hours.  He unlocked windows when I was busy with the children so I had to go through the very large 3 story house locking up every night... I borrowed a friend's dog so I could sleep.

Things went downhill from there, and I blame it on myself, my attorneys and that family Court Judge..... doddering.  Old.  Fool.  Harmful old man.  Ignorant.  Not suited to the family court system, and I'd hired the attorney who helped him graduate law school..... I thought I was doing everything right, but.... I didn't honestly know what I was up against till it was too late to be proactive.

I'm hoping you can prepare better than I did.  I'm hoping you can insulate yourself, protect, and distance.

If you act normal, it shows the pd for what he is sooner, IME.

Part of the reason they get away with so much is bc we're as sick as they are in some ways.... and we allow it.  We cover for them, make excuses and put up with things normal people would never put up with for a minute. 

It hinders our ability to be heard, and have our rights upheld by the courts. 

Often, we're our own worst enemy, and we help the pd undermine and sabotage..... it's sickening when we help them discredit and ruin us, bc we send mixed messages to the Court by backing down a bit when the pd promises to go easy on us, give us an easy  divorce, etc.

They never follow through, IME, but we do, and so we undermine ourselves, and honestly....... the distress and discomfort the pd puts on us is difficult to endure.  We're ripe for manipulation bc we just want
it
to
go
away.

The idea of a trial is terrifying for those of us who have no money, and children to feed and cloth and house and send to school. 

We don't know what's required by we're asked to fill out TONS of paperwork, and that clues us in.... this is going to suck, and suck hard.

Don't relent when you begin.  Don't take the pressure off the pd bc he promises something to you....... keep the pressure on, and keep preparing for trial.  He'll try to sway you, convince you to stop, and you two can do this the nice way, but he just wants you to look crazy to your attonrey and the Judge and your family and friends, and that's something to avoid, IME.

BTW, if you have any PTS you'll likely babble the way I do on this thread.  It's not helpful.

Try to practice small explanations, and being quiet.  Speak softly, and don't say anything you can't back up with facts.  I'm sure I've said this already.

It's important.

hhaw
hhaw



What you are speaks so loudly in my ears.... I can't hear a word you're saying.

When someone tells you who they are... believe them.

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
Nietchzsche

"It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness."
Eleanor Roosevelt

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Rose1

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Re: Idea for getting out sanely and safely
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2016, 08:12:27 AM »
I hate to say it but hhaw is right. Put away everything you can. The answer to questions is you are preserving assets because you are scared husband will take it all out of the country. If its here then all legal bills can get paid and all entitlements honoured. Plus h has $x plus what you don't know about.
Any further queries are unlikely. Tell them an accountant advised preserving assets was a good idea. (Just did). Keep records that can be matched to bank accounts. Keep records of joint expenses so that your h's half is taken into consideration. Is when selling house all selling expenses come before equity splil. Not I'll give you half house and then pay selling cost out of your share. DJ's ex committed credit card fraud and disappeared all his money. Dh had to pay fraudulent cr card bill that was in his name despite her opening up cr cards in his name. Attempts to have bank deal with it were refused by court to hurry up case. No penalty to her ever. You trust yourself not him. Most that can happen is slap on the wrist but 'your honour money is safe in account and here are records'. Not theft but prudent money management. You did it in good faith best you know how

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InTheDarkness

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Re: Idea for getting out sanely and safely
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2016, 01:28:39 PM »
To chocolateraspberry and hhaw,

It 's definitely the fear of  the unknown, that is, once I retain an attorney, will my wife sue for peace or have her attorney remove my 'manhood' by telling her attorney lies and distortions.  On the other hand, everything I've experienced with her and our history, is documented with my/our T, my psychiatrist, my primary, my urologist and my T and psychiatrist that I saw in Florida this winter.  If even just the T is put on the stand, he's not going to cover for her.  He recommended I leave her two years ago. 

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hhaw

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Re: Idea for getting out sanely and safely
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2016, 01:57:03 PM »
Agreeing with Rose emphatically.....

the courts can't or won't hold pd's accountable for domestic theft, fraud, taking money and making it go poof..... my ASPD opened a Trust account "for the children" then has his father Trustee sell the assets to an attorney posing as straw buyer, he said he put 2Million into drilling an oil well but it was a manufactured expense that didn't exist, he put 2M into his father's account... his father stole millions of dollars worth of machines, property and vehicles, money and no ONE CARES.  MY ASPD STOLE MY PRE MARITAL HOUSE by selling it as per our Agreement, but instead of putting that money into the new house, in my name, he stole it and sent it out of the Country into an account that couldn't be traced.  He let the new house go into foreclosure and nobody even talked about MY ASSET being stolen, which y attorey pretty much insisted on as I protest BTW.
 
It has to be said my FIL was facing criminal charges, and that's why he settled the fraud case, but I'm still mired in the fraudulent Trust issue, and heading to court BECAUSE NO ONE BELIEVES THE THINGS PD's WILL DO, the risks they'll take, the lies they'll tell under oath consistently while we're left with telling the truth, and the truth is very difficult to believe.... no one wants to believe a father, mother, Grandparent, husband, wife would DO these things to family members, even in a divorce. 

AND the, the courts, the forensic accountabts, the attorneys don't want to unravel it, or deal with it, and WE were the ones who signed up for it, so maybe they can justify letting us swing, and paying a very steep price, bc we're the ones who married them, kwim?  Esp if we doubt our rights, the system is more than happy to deny us every right we're entitled to bc the pd maniufactures so much trouble, and chaos.... they just want it to go away, and the pd will never stop fighthing and posturing as victim while we don't want to trouble anyone, be seen as a whiner, or plead for our rights to be honored.... we get stomped in ways the court doesn't care about, and acutally helps the pd STOMP us... mostly bc we help them, IME.

Put the money into your attorney's escrow account if you really care that much about your image.  Put it into a separate escrow account in only your name, but don't make it available for the pd to jerk you around with.... he will. 

A Judge is going to split it, and that can only be done if it's there to split.  You'll make it available, bc you're fair.

Honestly, I split everything down to the spices in the kitchen cabinet in my first marriage.  I visited my ex MIL and brought her food, and put my babies in her arms from my next marriage bc I wanted her to have visitors, and joy, and she appreciated it very much.  I'm a nice person is what my first ex dh said to me the other day, and he showed up when I needed him to in the legal system for me.  I know know know my ASPD husband was a criminal, and an abuser......... trusting him was always a bad idea, and yet I let him trap me, trick me, steal everything from me, and it was bc he promised to DO somethng..... relieve the pressure he was putting ON Me in the first place.  I should never have given him an inch.  I should have gotten away before filing,  and filed arrest reports when he harmed me.  Stupid stupid stupid... I DID THAT to myself.

I can trust myself to be fair and do the right thing.... overtly so, and that's the case with your divorce CR.  Take control,  and do it with your intentions in mind.  STOP STOP STOP worrying so much about what other people think.  Don't allow them to dictate how you feel about yourself or this divorce. I promise everyone has plenty to think about, and you aren't one of them...and you'll prove your intentions with actions... so stop worrying about how you'll appear.

Trust yourself, and treat stupid accusations and name calling and suggestions from others as opportunities to educate those ignorant individuals.  The world's full of them, so figure out how to deal with them now, bc it will aid you in life going forward always.   The pd will claim all sorts of stupid things.  Instead of being mortified... instead of bending over backwards to disprove the accusation, which pd chooses carefully to challenge what you feel is the most important identifying charactersistics of WHO YOU ARE, instead of falling into the trap to prove you're a good person, treat it like it's business, and refuse to let them unhinge you with accusations. 

Stay.

Calm.

Breath.

Sit with the discomfort without DOING DOING DOING which is what we typically do to get ourselves out of discomfort.  Realize what you've been doing isn't working, and sit with those hard feelings and listen to them.  They have a message.  You need to make a change, bc you';re in the wrong place, making decisions that aren't working for you.  Time to change things up, and be proactive, NOT REACTIVE.  The pds count on triggering us to get what they want.  Just stop and observe yourself, what you feel, what you want to do do do.  Just stop and observe.

Plan the quickest way out of this with the help of pragmatic wise individuals who GET what you're going through or will be heading into, and know you'll do the right thing.  Don't waste time worrying about how things will look.

A Judge can see plainly documented facts, and figure out quickly the difference between wild accusations, without documentation, and clear facts presented to the court with the ability to back them up.  The pd will have wild accusations without documentation, and it's emotionally triggering for someone every time, but eventually people SEE who has the documents, nad he with hte best documents wins.  ESP if you don't allow the pd to jerk you around for a year before you start playing at his level, which is cut throat and very very effective.  Sure, it's not NICE but hey... do you want out or do you want to prove to the people who know you're nice that your;re nice, bc the others who don';t understand who you are will never understand no matter what you do, so don't waste time trying to prove something to people who don't want the truth.

THAT'S HOW YOU GET THROUGH THIS.  You  document.  You calmly state facts.  YOU LEARN HOW TO NOT BE TRIGGERED INTO BABBLING LIKE A MORON WHEN THE PD OR HIS ATTORNEY ACCUSES YOU OF SOMETHING THEY BOTH KNOW IS UNTRUE ABOUT YOU ON A CELLULAR LEVEL bc they know it will provoke you into an outburst that makes you look unstable.  If you can be provoked into looking unstable everything is expanded and then the Court really does want to punish everyone in the room for taking up their time, IME.  Just give them one little wobble of intention to get out of the marriage nad you can be dismissed as ahuman being forever by the court system, IME.

 Stay focused. DO NOT SEND MIXED MESSAGES.

If you take everything, sell the house, and file a rational Complaint for divorce with clear facts you've backed up with documents.... if you lay out settlement offers that are overtly more fair to the pd.....(I caution you here, bc the pd will likely be telling stories of abuse from you then use your settlement offer to pay him more as evidence that you know you're at fault, and the abuser.. that's how they operate, IME) so maybe think think think this through with a good attorney practiced in high conflict divorces who can help you think down the road, and stay ahead of the typical pd fraud, chaos and confusion manufacture that drags a divorce out and costs the family everything they have in savings.

OK.... devil's advocate time....

lets say you offer to give the pd most everything..... you sell the house, and offer him 70%-100%of the proceeds, you give him the 70%-100% of the accounts, and maybe offer him several other things he woulnd't have a right to bc you want to avoid giving all the money to attorneys.,,, your first born even.....

What if..... what if you knew he'd refuse any offer you made?  What if he insisted on fighting it out in court over a year and a half so he could break and punish you, even if it mean he ended up broke too?

How would that effect your decision making process?

I think there's something that can be filed to hold a combative litigant responsible for dragging things out, adding cost, and expanding the case just to punish the other litigant, but I can never find it when I need it.  THAT one thing should be common, easy to find and something attorneys file in every case, every time, IME, but that's not what they do.

They have steps they go through... plod through, and it makes it  possible for them to bill tons of hours, nad sometimes.... sometimes the divorce is over when everyone is  out of money.  That's how the system is set up, and it's egregious and harmful esp where children are involved.  Attorneys are policed by attorneys, and they don't often provide consequences for practicing law without ethics, IME.

They cover for each other, and shy away from blowing the whistle like they'd be labled jail house snitches.  They accommodate each other very often before considering what's best for their client.... OMG.  That's messed up, and they don't think outside the box, down the road, or how to get you out of the divorce before all the assets have been blown.

They bill, and ask you to jump through more paperwork hoops while letting the pd fail to get documents in, provide accurate numbers, give proper accounting.  We're hammered, and the pd is laughing at us, bc we follow all the rules while they break them, and they know they know we can't stand conflict.  They know we'll give in sooner than later, bc we can't stand the discomfort of being in that conflict, and you know what?

They're almost always right, they are.  IF we were more normal, had proper boundaries and trusted ourselves we woiuldn't have allow3ed the first boundary stomp, or the first lie, or the first theft or fraud..... but we feel guilty on a cellular level.  We take responsibility where the pd fits like a glove, bc they're used to blaming, and I hope you can see how that works to the pd's advantage in a divorce.

Shirk off that uber tendency to feel responsible and guilty, and strap on your armor.... you're doing this to get out more quikcly, and preserve funds for you and a mentally ill person that will likely push this divorce into the red zone.... bc he's pathologically unable to settle anything.  Not bc you're a bad person, or you're doing something wrong, or you';re letting him down.

You're saving yourself, and that's your job.  Not making him feel OK, or makking him act fair... you CAN'T CONTROL HIM NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO.  Sorry, didn't mean to yell, but that's the truth, and we fool ourselves when we think we can be nice enough, fair enough, give enough to MAKE THE PD BEHAVE like a rational human being.  THey aren't rational bc they're pd.  That isn;'t in our control, nad making peace with that makes it easier to fight with a sturdy backbone, and less suffering over what others think of us, IME.

Now, with all that said I'm honestly hopeful he's the kind of guy who takes the money and runs without putting you through an extended court battle over NOTHING.  I hope I look foolish and very much like chicken little. 

I honestly do.

The thing is....... I'm usually right.

I'm really tired of being right.

chocolateraspberry:  You think your h may be ASPD.  He's a liar and a cheater, and he has no compassion for you.  How do you think your divorce will play out?  Truthfully.

InTheDarkness: Pds are domestic terrorists... they tell crazy lies about us, and they lie and cheat and steal, and it's up to  us to document, as you seem to have done, in order to get free, and save what we can of our sanity, and financial stability, if it can be managed at all.  It's up to us to document, and put together a story that makes sense to other people, bc they won't ever ever ever understand the truth of a self defeating pd who does irrational crazy things for what appears to be NO reason, when the reason is that they're pd.  They're broken.  They can't do any better, bc they;re ill, and that means we tell a story that does make sense, leaving out much of the pd stuff, EVERYTHING we can';t document, and you might get everything you need from the T's testimony on the stand.

Or not.  You have to think think think through everything you can document, or find and save.... notes, e mails, texts, recordings, other witnesses then put together the best possible case, and plan then follow it throuigh with minimal contact with the pd, and withoiut being triggered by what you know is coming... slander and accusations that are the opposite of the truth, which is very unfair.... being unjustly accused of BEING what the pd is.... it's something that can send us spinning and saying things that make us appear unstable, and then we're sometimes fighting our own attonrey and advocates.  We want to avoid that. 

Stay close to that T.  Document your arse off, and get together the best possible case before filing, and have it ready to go.  You want to outmenauver your pd in the divorce.  PROACTIVELY undermine the stories they're likely to tell about you, and show very early that you';re telling the truth, while pointing out the pd has zero documentation or evidence of what they're alleging.
I keep talking bc I feel like I'm missing something important I can't get to, in my own head. 

It's this.... and you already know it.... we're at a tremendous disadvantage when we're pitted against someone who's willing to lie cheat and steal while we're tied by the truth.  There's really no way to battle that efffectively outside of PROVING your case, and DISPROVING the negatives alleged about us.

That's whack that they have to prove nothing, bc they're emotional and crying out like a victim, and we have to prove everything, bc wer'e relatively stoic, or broken down, or shut down, and not whah whahing like the pd's..... it's just whack. 

In any case, I hope you do get out of your marriage, and that you don't feel completely destroyed when it's over.  I hope you can plan, and plot a quick course out with economy of motion, and that your evidence is clear and convincing from day one in the way you format it, and present it.
hhaw
hhaw



What you are speaks so loudly in my ears.... I can't hear a word you're saying.

When someone tells you who they are... believe them.

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
Nietchzsche

"It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness."
Eleanor Roosevelt

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HopefulOne44

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Re: Idea for getting out sanely and safely
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2016, 07:42:27 PM »
My experience in divorcing my uNPD ex-wife is that you can transfer 50% of your marital account balances into a personal account in your name only.

I agree with the other posters who have said that logic does not apply to PDs. My experience is that they will seek any means by which they can destroy you regardless of how generous a settlement offer you make.

 :yeahthat:

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Rose1

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Re: Idea for getting out sanely and safely
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2016, 09:02:07 PM »
It's better to apologise than ask for permission. Oh sorry your honor. I did what I thought was best to preserve marital assets. Stop worrying about if the PD thinks its fair. He won't ink anything is and still be bad mouthing you for years to come but if you can't hear it it's the sound of one hand clapping. If you make a generous offer and its accepted it's also possible that as you get on your feet and he doesn't that he will try for more later. It really got up exbpdhs nose that I went on to earn good income. I had to so I could support my D's but he didn't see that or the effort. It was always poor me. If he had put half the effort into earning an income that he did into trying to not pay child support, whining and aggravating he would have done OK. But that's the PD way.
Dh's ex disappeared his wages during the marriage, vandalized the house etc. Court made sure both parties ended up with nothing and gave her alimony out of what was left which was no assets and no job.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2016, 09:18:36 PM by Rose1 »

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InTheDarkness

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Re: Idea for getting out sanely and safely
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2016, 11:17:57 PM »
chocolateraspberry,

Regarding your fears and protracted court battle, I've read on the site shrink4men that when you see an attorney you should ask if he or she has experience dealing with high conflict people, such as those with PD.  I'm of the opinion that a smart, tough attorney is your best defense against your spouse trying to game the hearing.  I'm not sure on something else; if the attorney can get the case heard by a particular judge whom he or she knows is sharp and fair.  On s4m, there was an attorney named Natalie Malonis or Malonos, I believe, who discussed what to look for when you're shopping for an attorney for a high conflict divorce or separation.

Thank you, too, for your support.  As I near 66, I thought I had a good understanding about life, love and myself.   "Fall down seven times, get up eight."  Bruce Lee.

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hhaw

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Re: Idea for getting out sanely and safely
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2016, 01:53:37 AM »
InTheDarkness:

You don't pick your Judge.  You wait to see which Judge is assigned to your case, then shop attorneys accordingly. 

You don't pick an attorney who just got his arse chewed by your Judge.... one the Judge hates and will rule against no matter what t,he evidenec, kwim?

Some attorneys are in tight with certain Judges.   Some attorneys aren't confident they can be effective with certain attorneys.... or they know which attorney would be,and suggest you seek them out, which happened to me.   If ypur attorney doesn't do the homework on their Judge, and know what you're up against, don't hire them, IME.

It's a game of chess.  There was a day I found that offensive, but I;m afraid it's true.

hhaw
hhaw



What you are speaks so loudly in my ears.... I can't hear a word you're saying.

When someone tells you who they are... believe them.

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
Nietchzsche

"It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness."
Eleanor Roosevelt

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chocolateraspberry

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Re: Idea for getting out sanely and safely
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2016, 11:30:50 AM »
Thank you all for the additional thoughts and support.

Hhaw, I am not trying to minimize the issues and abuse by my pdh, but in our 12 years together he has never exhibited the level of abuse and threats yours did. I'd say for about 2 years now, I've stopped with the dynamic of trying to placate him, etc. and have gone about my own life. (In your words, I have behaved normallly).  I have also told him some behaviors that were deal breakers, and he has tried (note: again, I'm not excusing him,, I am simply demonstrating a dynamic here) to make some changes. The changes he's made are ultimately not enough for me, but some of his behaviors like self pity and lack of responsibility and motivation have "improved." It is entirely possible he is doing the whole "show face" while not making substantive changes.

The reason I bring this up is because each of us needs to assess our partners, their level of pd, and find a strategy that is most effective with the dynamics at play.

In the past 2 days it has come to light that it's unlikely PDH will be traveling back home anytime before the end of the year. So, I have had to ponder alternative strategies.

I am not internally opposed to a shock and awe campaign, however, given his dynamics and the extent to which he has become increasingly clingy over the past few years (when I was going to leave before, he begged for another chance), I have mapped out a possible alternative plan, and a fall back position.

PLAN A:
Spend the next 30-60 days gradually being kinder and "warmer" to him (sudden moves will raise suspicion). Do what I can to increase his attachment levels.

Meanwhile amass more documentation, evidence, etc.

Right before having The Talk, move all monies that I can into my own name. Prepare paperwork for attorney, keep on hold.

Have The Talk with him. Remind/ask him if he recalls our conversation 1.5 years ago, when I noted porn and secrecy was destroying our marriage and I wouldnt stay in such a marriage. Ask him if he recalls the extent of his apology to me and that he asked for a chance to change.

Tell him this isn't working for me , that I can't do this anymore. That i love him, and see two options acceptable for me.

Option A: we go our separate ways and divorce DIY to keep costs low and ensure we each walk away with half our total assets. Tell him I only wish the best for him, and no ill will.  (In other words, be nonemotional, do not rage at him or engage in blaming). Ask him straight out if he wants this option, so no further discussion needed at that time. Leave house for the night.

Option B: we divorce quickly and peacefully, and "rebuild." He remains in town, and we "date". I remind him I love him, and this gives us a chance to "start from scratch." He needs to move out, split assets, etc. but, it is a "chance for a possible future for us" and the "possibility to recommit later, with a clean slate." He will likely push back and ask why a divorce is necessary, and I will use some of his own words and examples, such as why an infected limb gets cut off, etc.

---

I'm using quotes in the above because this isnt what I hope for or believe will happen long trrm. The purpose of option B is to mitigate his feelings of abandonment and the narcissistic injury, and utilize any authentic guilt he may feel (if it's there) while dangling a carrot. The carrot's purpose for ME is to get me out with less drama.

Plan B
If plan A goes to hell in the discussions, attorney is hired, I leave town, and no or low contact begins.

In both plans, I protect myself by moving funds first, and having my paperwork ready for attorney if plan B needs implementing.

I believe he possibly sees me an as object to posess. I also think it's possible he is more attached to our dynamic now than I am. I am looking to leverage this, emotionally, to get the outcome I'd like.

And hell, if he chooses option B and really does change, well I'm open to that but not counting on it. :)

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hhaw

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Re: Idea for getting out sanely and safely
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2016, 09:51:01 PM »
chocolateraspberry:
'
Certainly all pd's are individuals.  I do want to point out that your pd got you to stay in the marriage without having to escalate his behavior, or that's what I understood?  What did happen that you changed your mind?  Why did you stay?  What did  he do, if anything, that changed your mind?

With that said, just know that true pds DO escalate.  In their minds, it's not a matter of IF you'll give in and stay, it's a matter of WHEN you'll give in, IME.  If they're committed to your staying, then they will escalate.  Escalation means they'll go above and beyond any past pd behaviors, and show you something new, something you haven't seen before, and they'll ratchet it up to the level they're capable of. 

Some have a scorched earth policy and some don't  You don't know till you're in it, and that's why being proactive and taking precautions is so important, IME.  You can't go back and change your game plan once the pd is on notice you're leaving.

Tell me... in your gut.... what do you think is the worst case scenario with your pd?  Keeping in mind I never thought my pd would assault me, or threaten me and the children.  Not consciously.

BTW, what pd conduct do you want to document before you file?  I don't know that a porn addictio is something the courts care about.  I'm not sure it would be worth alleging, esp if you live in a no fault State..... just claiming irreconcilable differences might be less stressful on you, and triggering for the pd? 

Whatever you claim, be careful that you think it through.... that it makes sense.  The truth is that the only weight cheating etc has in divorce comes down to how assets are split, and you don't want more than the State would give anyway, right?   You don't have to prove pd to get out of the marriage.  You don't have to convince anyone your pd IS pd.  You don't have to mention you think he is.... I wouldn't mention pd under any circumstances to anyone frankly.   You can have your divorce simply for the asking.  WHat they do care about is abuse, and safety, but only if you go through proper channels and don't block yourself from receiving help.

Where things get tricky is when the pd plays the victim and makes you feel defensive..... that's when we feel the need to SHOW the world what we've been living with, but.... do we really have to?  The people who believe us, and care for us will believe we have good reason.  The people who are manipulated by the pd, or who judge us and try to talk us into staying bc we're selfish, didn't go about divorce the right way in their opinion, we're being cruel blah blah will always feel that way no matter what we say so we might as well just say we're sorry they feel that way then avoid them like the plague.

Good luck,

hhaw
hhaw



What you are speaks so loudly in my ears.... I can't hear a word you're saying.

When someone tells you who they are... believe them.

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
Nietchzsche

"It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness."
Eleanor Roosevelt

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openskyblue

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Re: Idea for getting out sanely and safely
« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2016, 12:18:56 AM »
Hi chocolateraspberrry:

From what you wrote, I would suggest that you already know that you want to leave this relationship.  If that is the case, the time to start planning is now, so you can take best advantage of the period he will be away. ASPD's sound like they are particularly sneaky, so assume that when he leaves the country, he might take extra steps to protect his assets.

Here are some ideas:
-- Open your own bank account, and start making small deposits into it from your joint accounts.
-- Get a PO box at a UPS store or similar.  You will not believe how nice it is to get your mail and no have to worry about him pawing through it.
-- Make sure you have access to his account (i.e.. any new password).  The money may be in his name, but it is a joint marital asset. Technically, you could take all of it, but it looks better if you take only half.
-- If his name is not on the deed, it is not his house. Unless, you live i a common law state.  If you do not live in a common law state, you can move out his stuff and change the locks.
-- Consult an attorney, but pick one that has experience dealing with mental illness.  Many lawyers don't, and those are the ones who you do not want to deal with -- and will be more easily snowed by our stbx.
-- Make sure you have changed your beneficiaries on life insurance and other funds -- and updated any living will or advance directive. If you were like me, your partner will be listed everywhere as the beneficiary or agent.

Good luck!  Believe me, you feel better once you are about halfway down your check list!

I would say, take this time to start laying your groundwork.  It takes months to get everything arranged and to feel like you have a timeline.
--

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chocolateraspberry

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Re: Idea for getting out sanely and safely
« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2016, 12:53:02 AM »
Thank you, hhaw and openskyblue,

Hhaw, I do not plan on asserting anything besides irreconcilable differences when filing. I would not plan to file at fault. The point of me bringing up the porn was only in conversation with him, as a leading angle. I understand we cannot ascribe logic to them. I do. I also think restating my boundary and its consequence is something important for me and also to give premise to the conversation. So, that is why I brought it up in the last post.

I do not plan to assert any PD dx, etc in a settlement negotiation or to the courts. I understand they dont want to hear it, wont believe it, and it will make me look like the crazy one. I plan on no accusations on the record. Further, I have already mentally prepared, for a couple years now, of losing family and relationships over this. I have mentally prepared for them to turn against me, or to be turned by him. I am prepared to stand alone, supported by my few friends he doesnt know about and who believe me. And even them I am prepared to lose. So no, I dont give two figs what others think. Those friends who are golden will stand by me. If they dont, they arent golden.

My concerns were at the level of court--in other words, if I do X (e.g. take all the money I can) might it adversely color my case from a legal perspective. When I ask "what if I do/say this" it is solely from a "cover my rear" perspective.

You asked what is the worst I think he'd do. First, emotionally I am a person who tends to imagine crappy worst-case scenarios and worry unnecessarily. Not just about him, but in life. If I am being fully objective, with the data I have, I think worst cases are:
-he wont leave the house
-he will drag out any actions related to a case
-he will pity play my mother
-he will threaten to divide my sole proprietorship (I've checked. He has no legal right to it in my state)
-he will become an a-hole emotionally. Sarcastic, demeaning, undermining, veiled threats.

A large part of his nature is passibe aggressive. It's one of my bigger issues with him. He generally lacks follow theough. Also, I have witnessed him express great scorn toard another peson but nit take action. Lack of action is his means of comtrol. If i want something (not little things, but bigger issues) he stalls, he avoids, he stonewalls.

He stands to lose WAY too much if he becomes physically violent. His green card, for one. As much as he disregards moral, societal rules, he has demonstrated a real fear of governments and their capacity to ruin his life. He is fully aware we live in a town where, to be frank, my family is well connected to community leaders, politicians, and judges, and no one knows him. And no, I dont care about what he might do to said family.

Openbluesky, THANK YOU for the checklist ideas.

One concern I have about opening a bank account now is whether is shows devious intent in the eyes of the law...like if I open it, dont tell him, and it's there for months...that seems to look like divorce premeditation and obstruction of information from spouse. Maybe I am wrong but in some states I think it can carry that message.

I live in an equitable distribution state.

Also, I check and download the bank accounts monthly, and he knows this. So, he's aware I keep all the data. Further, his level of disorganization is ...like a toddler. If he's not ASPD, he's in the least avoidant, passive, and underperforming at the level of life.

My sense is he excels at planning elaborate war games...in his MIND. executing anything has never been a strong suit. All I can piece together is this existed before me, too. He was/is a highly intelligent, low-performing person, without long-term life goals or plans.

Thank you both again. It helps to write this out.

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A_newlife2014

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Re: Idea for getting out sanely and safely
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2016, 01:43:01 AM »
Hi CR,

I didn't read every single response here, I skipped the last few, but I want to say:

1. Hhaw is very wise and her advice is rock solid.

2. I kind of pick up in your posts a sense that you are overthinking things a bit maybe. Not in terms of preparing to divorce a PD, but in terms of what the court will *think* and do about your case.

Some things about courts:

Their No. 1 priority is not your well-being or to probe you with questions. All they want to do is clear their docket of your case as fast as fast can be. They don't want to work, they don't want to figure things out. They just want to get you the hell out of their courtroom.

Ultimately, it will come down to what the law is, whether that's 50/50 or whatever it is. They really don't care about the whys or the explanations or anything. They just want. you. out. They would split a child in half, a la King Solomon, if the law allowed it.

Now, they may be FORCED to deal with a bunch of BS, if your PD brings it. But if you remain calm and rational, as hhaw points out, when the court goes looking for someone to punish because they are pissed that their time is being wasted, they tend to aim at the person bugging them the most, hopefully your PD ex.

So they just want very, very little problems. They want quick clean and easy. Make sure that when it is not quick, clean and easy, that PD is square in their sights for who to blame.

And they will default to simply what the law is. They're usually not interested in making value judgements or moral judgements about what's more fair, who cheated, who's a bigger jerk, who has the heart of gold.

They just. want. you. gone.

Go NC, move in with your friend, communicate with your stbx through attorney only. Keep your address private, think of yourself as in witness protection, and proceed with your D. You're in an extremely good position, much better in fact than many on here who set out to divorce a PD. You have a safe location to go to; your ex is out of the country; you have assets; you have no children.

Best of luck and keep us posted.
-ANL


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hhaw

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Re: Idea for getting out sanely and safely
« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2016, 04:19:20 AM »
As another poster said....

you're preserving marital assets when you put the majority of funds into accounts that can't be stolen, or squandered by the pd.

You aren't stealing anything as you intend to give 50% or more to the pd in any settlement..... you said 70%..... there's not Judge in the world who'll believe pd bleatings about being cheated blah blah once you show that the funds are safe, and ready to be divided as the Judge Orders.

Just take care of yourself, and keep moving toward the exit door.

hhaw
hhaw



What you are speaks so loudly in my ears.... I can't hear a word you're saying.

When someone tells you who they are... believe them.

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
Nietchzsche

"It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness."
Eleanor Roosevelt

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chocolateraspberry

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Re: Idea for getting out sanely and safely
« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2016, 01:16:13 PM »
Thank you hhaw :)

There is so much pain and confusion in being in this situation, but there is calm and peace from the kindness and wisdom of others such as you and the other posters here.

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hhaw

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Re: Idea for getting out sanely and safely
« Reply #36 on: March 29, 2016, 03:53:16 PM »
chocolateraspberry:

Please recognize your discomfort when you're being accused of being terrible things you absolutely are not.... that's the pd signature, IME.

Accept you won't ever convince your pd that you're a kind, decent person who deserved a reciprocal relationship, and acknowledgement you worked hard to save the marriage, while he worked hard to crush it flat, over and over again.

::shaking head::: That will never happen, and he'll convince plenty of others of things that are opposite of your nature, intentions and actions.  Just accept it now, and don't anguish over it.

Your husband will never admit you're a good wife, decent human being, bc it serves him to accuse you of doing terrible things/being terrible things so you'll bend over backwards to disprove those negatives.

Divorcing a pd, in large part IME, is about disproving negatives about us.  SInce we care, it's twice the struggle.  If we accept that's the pd game, refuse to engage.... just drop the rope as they say... we get out from under a good deal of struggle and suffering, IME.  Heck, you don't even have to disprove these things.... the court doesn't give a hank about most of it, and you  have clear evidence and documentation about the money.  This should be over quickly if you don't engage in any other struggles he might allege, IMO.

Just cover your arse, know the court sees parents do terrible things to each other, and their children all the time, and that you're preserving funds is going to look rational, calm, and prudent in comparison to that.

I hope speaking to attorneys about it helps you get your battle armor on.  It's better to be prepared than caught off guard, flat footed, and stunned.

hhaw
hhaw



What you are speaks so loudly in my ears.... I can't hear a word you're saying.

When someone tells you who they are... believe them.

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
Nietchzsche

"It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness."
Eleanor Roosevelt

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openskyblue

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Re: Idea for getting out sanely and safely
« Reply #37 on: March 29, 2016, 11:41:33 PM »
You have the right to open a bank account and keep that to yourself. It is not sneaky. 


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Rose1

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Re: Idea for getting out sanely and safely
« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2016, 12:32:23 AM »
That is correct. I believe the only obligation you have is to accurately report it to the court when asked.