What do they want?

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Kit99

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What do they want?
« on: March 31, 2016, 11:45:23 AM »
I'm trying to divorce my uN/BPDh. I've presented several different settlement options to him/his lawyer with regard to kids and finances. He doesn't counter or try to compromise. They simply reject whatever proposal I make. I don't even understand what he WANTS from me. I assume money- but the more he drains my bank account with legal fees, the less left for him to take. Honestly- what does a PD want? How did you finally get out? Don't get me wrong- I have a lot of love and compassion for my H and I honestly wish we weren't in this position but if he were really concerned with addressing his issues and "changing" then he wouldn't be acting like this. He's combative, disrespectful, entitled and indignant. He openly admits that he would not be seeing a psych or therapist if it weren't in our orders. So how am I supposed to deal with all this? Just let him continue to run up the legal and court costs until I'm officially broke? How do I make him go away!? I just want this to be over.

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Rosemarie

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Re: What do they want?
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2016, 12:23:23 PM »
Kit99, I am sorry that you are going through this. My ex was out to destroy me emotionally and mentally. He did not really want anything other than that. It made no sense and really his behavior made no sense and would not have even gotten him anything in the long run. Get out as soon as you can and try to redirect your resources in  your direction and away from him. Talk to your attorney and/or see if you can consult with an attorney who has experience with PD. Take care of yourself, this sounds really hard and confusing. I hope you are also getting support from a counselor or a group.
"Communication is to relationship what breathing is to life."  Virginia Satir

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Blistex

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Re: What do they want?
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2016, 03:16:51 PM »
My personal belief is they want power and control.

The ex received 98% of everything property wise (I wanted out so I just said have it all) and even 3 years later tells everyone there was no property division and she is a victim. 

She will also only mention that I hired a lawyer to deprive her of the property and never mention that she had a lawyer as well. 

Again, to play up the victim role and for what?  Power and control.

So whether they receive 10%, 50%, 80%, 98%, in their mind it is never enough.

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Empty Shell

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Re: What do they want?
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2016, 03:49:27 PM »
Sorry this is happening to you, Kit99.

Boiling down the responses thus far and in keeping with my own experience, what they want is our souls...
You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometime, you might find, you get what you need...

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FeliciaStoppedDancing

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Re: What do they want?
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2016, 04:14:42 PM »
My stbx uPD wants to "win." I'm really not sure what that means, but he's refused every settlement offer and now we're scheduled for a trial, which is absolutely ridiculous, given we have no children and just need to divide debts and assets.
I've been doing better emotionally, partly because his behavior is just so asinine and I just want to be divorced already.
My heart goes out to you, divorce is such a difficult event, and pwPDs make it so much more difficult because they can't accept the loss of power and control. It's like suing a toddler while they're in the middle of a tantrum.
You may write me down in history 
With your bitter, twisted lies, 
You may tread me in the very dirt 
But still, like dust, I'll rise. 
                                 - Maya Angelou

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Onwards

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Re: What do they want?
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2016, 06:10:09 PM »
Hi Kit

We are living in parallel universes!  I am having the EXACT same experience with my exN/BPDh.  It's beyond maddening and just baffling.  The only thing I can think is to agree with the others that for the PD, it's all about loss of control and power and desperate attempts to retain it, EVEN WHEN they come off worse!!  It makes no sense.  :stars:

My exh is currently trying to get money off me to pay for something that I have just offered to pay for in full. wth?

This follows yet another drama 2 weeks ago over Easter arrangements which HE had requested -dates, times, days, everything and then he wanted to change it all just days before when I had flights booked etc. This has happened so many times I can't even count.

I can't wait to get the finances sorted and get this parasite out of my life. That's all he is. In fact, that's insulting to parasites!  :P

Sorry, I can't offer any constructive feedback except to say I totally understand how you feel. Sending you strength to keep going.
Onwards.


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Kit99

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Re: What do they want?
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2016, 08:18:37 PM »
Power and control seems to about sum it up. It's so sad to realize that the person I've loved and cherished is so hell bent on "winning" that he wants to destroy me emotionally, financially- however he can. His goal is to make this as painful as possible. I don't know if it's intentional or not.

A few of you mention that whatever we offer up is "never enough." Wow, isn't that the truth? It's just so very draining. I feel like there is no end in sight. :blink:

Felicia- This quote made me laugh and definitely sums up the experience! "It's like suing a toddler while they're in the middle of a tantrum."

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kiwihelen

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Re: What do they want?
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2016, 01:02:08 AM »
Our uPD has spent the last 6 years trying to destroy SO because he left her.
Her want is simple. Him not to exist.

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divorcedfromnpd

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Re: What do they want?
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2016, 01:22:59 AM »
My covert uNPD wanted and still wants to destroy me in any way possible. She needs to destroy me to validate to herself that everything was my fault.

The best advice I can give is to always have a plan for what YOU will do no matter what action the pwPD takes.

It does get better after the divorce but don't expect the pwPD to give up trying to make your life miserable.

Disengage as much as possible.

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A_newlife2014

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Re: What do they want?
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2016, 01:30:58 AM »
A PD is a toddler mentality trapped in an adult's body. They are looking to fulfill their own ends, their own emotional needs, first and foremost. And when a toddler is having a tantrum, sometimes even they aren't sure what they want. They just know that they are hurting, and angry, and they are lashing out. They want power and control back, any way they can get it. They want to win. They want to stomp and destroy. They are just pure raw rage and other intense emotions, wanting to stop feeling all the feelings. They are not thinking how to rationally go about doing that, any more than a toddler is capable of rational thought when they are face down in the cereal aisle.

For an adult PD in crisis, the tantrum is never *over.* It is never soothed with a hug, a kiss, by fulfilling what he or she wants. Because unlike toddlers, whose brains are growing and developing and maturing, whose brains are constantly evolving, the PD brain is in arrested development. They cannot be soothed or fulfilled. They only way they stop is if you manage to get away with them; if they are physically unable to do their behaviors; if their behaviors cost THEM more than they are willing to pay (as defined by them, not by rational thought); or if a new target "fulfills" their needs -- keep in mind that in this case, they are not stopping their behavior, they are just transferring it to someone else.

And whether they can "help" it or not, whether they are angry and bullish about it, or victimy and pathetic about it, the core objective never changes: you are on object that they are using to fulfill their own bottomless pit of needs.

You don't have to hate them, and feel guilty about it, or pity them and feel sad for yourself or them. You just need to understand that this is what you're dealing with. That it's not about you. Whether you care, whether you don't, whether you're angry, sad, resentful, lovelorn, worried, anxious, fearful. None of it matters to them, none of it changes what they do. They have a single-minded, selfish focus.

The sooner we realize that, is the sooner we reclaim our lives back. Yes, it's sad --- incredibly -- but we need to put our energy, our focus, our feelings, into US, into OUR healing.

Because the other way lies madness.

-ANL


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atticusfinch

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Re: What do they want?
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2016, 01:39:11 AM »
Have you read any of hhaw's posts?

Some PDs take a scorched earth policy.  I wondered if mine would shy away from spending so many legal fees, since he'd tie himself in knots over the smallest amounts when married (a dollar for something for example), but he surprised me by being willing to spend tens of thousands just to punish me.  Some don't care what they're doing to themselves as long as they can get to YOU.

Remember that it's about control and preventing abandonment.  That is why so many PDs will do anything to delay a divorce.  Mine delayed and pulled many tricks to punish me to the max he could.  I feel that in his mind, he felt like he would a) "win" through this method and simultaneously make me miserable and look bad, b) try to get me to back down from wanting the divorce (since by making me miserable he felt I'd reconsider what a dumb idea it was in the first place, c) by trying to get me to back off the divorce he could reclaim his ego to friends and family (see?  she went off her rocker but it couldn't be that bad because she took me back!) d) he wanted to destroy  my ability to fight him, e) he wanted minimal consequences for himself as PDs really can't cope with loss (ie, he didn't want to pay any alimony/CS).

My advice to you, and I wish I'd done this early in my case, is to prepare for trial.  Prepare yourself for the long haul and do what it takes to get there as quickly as you can, while keeping your mental sanity as much as you can.  You may end up in trial no matter what you do, so why waste a ton of money trying to settle and then be crippled in court?  Don't keep giving him offers because it puts you in a very weak negotiating position.  Float your bottom line out there, or something close to it, and then tell your attorney you won't spend any more money on settling unless his offer meets your bottom line.  Some PDs just aren't capable of settling.  I knew deep down mine was one of them.  I read somewhere ASPDs have to feel dominant (they see relationships as a hierarchy and they have to be dominating or they feel that they're being dominated, which they can't handle...this is why they can't handle compromise, as it makes them feel like they're not dominant) and while mine was primarily NPD, this really fit him.  Don't wear yourself down trying to make this work.  Just do whatever you have to that is the next step...do you need depositions?  A custody evaluation?  I'd get those moving so you can get this over with and move on.  My ex did not make any real attempts at settling until there was an actual trial date in place.  So...move forward as if you're going to trial, stick to your bottom line, don't let yourself get worn down, and when your ex sees that he may see you mean business.  Until then he'll just keep trying to get everything possible out of you he can.  It will never be enough.  These people are insatiable.  That's because this is about the relationship to him and not the items under consideration.  There is a great blog post about this, I'll see if I can find it.

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RunningFree

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Re: What do they want?
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2016, 02:01:13 AM »
Kit, trying to figure them out, to understand what they want is a losing game.  In fact, I think what they want is for you to think about them and to try to figure it out.  There's just no understanding crazy -  Bottom line.
Trying to predict what they'll do is like trying to predict which way a coachroach will run when you turn on the lights.
When going through Hell, keep going.

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hhaw

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Re: What do they want?
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2016, 01:28:04 PM »
They feel entitled to power and control OVER US,,,,, bc they see us as their property.  They own us, and we're not entitled to anything if they decide we won't have it.

They want us to give them everything, bc they feel entitled..... and they want everything.  They want everyone to AGREE with them that we deserve nothing.  They come up with increasingly irrational arguments as time goes on.   Sometimes  they actually SAY the truth out loud when the irrational arguments fail, but that's much later, after all else fails, IME.

My stbx wanted to force compliance, even if he had to become a criminal, flee the country, and abandon us to DO it, eventually he thought he'd force me back..... and I still said NO.  I wouldn't drop the divorce, and he did to to absolute scorched earth policy.

In my experience with my IL's later on....

WHen/IF we give them everything, they'll very often refuse the deal, and insist on a trial.   They want a public spectacle... they want everyone to hear their lies, and they want us to FEEEEEEEL those lies, writhe under their power, and fear the Judge who can Order God only knows what in their disordered imaginations.

 I honestly think they believe they're going to get those things, esp if their attorney is bleeding them for fees..... and maybe if they aren't. 

They want what they want, and they have plenty of people telling them what they want to hear, reassuring them they're right, and good and entitled to go after us, take from us, demean us in court, and punish us.... we're the enemy, and I believe that the more disordered pd's actually believe their lies.  Maybe they didn't in the beginning, but the stories become legends after so many years, and no one in their circle questions the details any more.  BC they SAY it, it's fact, and that's a problem when they go to court, IME.

The ones who believe their stories are the pds who suffer the most in the final courtroom scenarios, IME.  They forget they have zero evidence, beyond their stories..... beyond bought off court officers, never enough IME, and manipulated court officers.... they can't fool everyone all the time though.   What they have are compelling inflammatory lies, and they expect people to respond to them with the same knee jerk reactions they've been getting.  But this is a Courtroom, and we've been painstakingly documenting, and even if a Judge wants to rule with them, they have a hard time bc the evidence is what it is, IME.  It' may not be so compelling or colorful, but it's documented, which is a problem for the pds AND the court officers who want to rule for them, IME.

If their plan backfires, and they end up getting exposed themselves in Court..... no real problem for the pd. They'll leave with their attorney assuring them we ACTED sweet as pie, got away with fooling the Judge, and they'll be snotty and sarcastic about it, like WE pulled something over on THEM in court.  Their supporters won't be swayed by the evidence.  They'll go into super bitter cheated mode, and they'll FEEL cheated.  They'll be angrier than they ever were, bc we exposed them, and they now feel even more entitled to crush, destroy and harm us than before, IME.   They have no shame, and they'll never have to bc their supporters won't ever call them on their Ker A Zee. 

Now, that's how it's been with very wealthy, sympathetic pd's in court. And it's been years and years to get to the final courtroom.  If there's money to spend on attorneys, there's a saying.... "You can't lock the courthouse doors."  PDs can take us back to court over andover and over, and IME they will until they don't get anything from it any longer.  In my case the pd's were Ordered to pay my fees.... would have been over 100K if I'd had my first attorney show up at the fee hearing. The Judge would have ordered anything I could prove at that point.  That took away the pd's power to starve me out with fees, even if I won case after case..... I had to get to the place where the Judge started Ordering them to pay my fees... I knew this.  Also, the pd's were exposed, and they did suffer.  For days.  They were exposed, and lost control, and looked like exactly what they are.  They honestly told the truth in many cases, which was astonishing to me that they could...... of course they had to be forced to tell the truth, but I was shocked they did it at all.

It's important that they be seen as the victim for victimizing us and the children, IME.

THat's what they want.  To garner sympathy for doing egregious things TO us.  When we stand up to them.... they consider it a violent affront to their persons.  They don't consider anything they DO to us wrong.  Everything they do is fair,  and good and right, IME.

Now, why do they want these things?  That's not ever going to make sense, IMO.  There's no making sense of it, so we shouldn't spend a lot of time trying.  It's like they have a self destruct button, and they HAVE to push it if they're challenged... and maybe it's a button that can only be used on people who have empathy... who care about and love them? 

They're like emotional suicide bombers, and they expect us to cave in, and give them anything to take that button out of their hand.  They are committed, IME.  They're emotional terrorists, and they feel that's fair FOR THEM, while expecting us to play fair, insisting there's pressure on us to play more than fair, which is something I never figured out... I guess bc they're accusing us of being the devil and we're just telling the truth which either makes us look crazy, if we tell the whole truth, or looks very blah if we're telling a tailored story that isn't very colorful.... WE'RE THE DEVIL and the story against them isn't very compelling, esp if we're stoic, and trying to get out of Court faster.  We don't lie, and we don't cheat or steal, but we're being portrayed as lying, cheating thieves and much worse so we're under heavier scrutiny?

I don't know, but I do know that the system isn't equipped to deal with pds. 

hhaw
hhaw



What you are speaks so loudly in my ears.... I can't hear a word you're saying.

When someone tells you who they are... believe them.

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
Nietchzsche

"It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness."
Eleanor Roosevelt

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Kit99

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Re: What do they want?
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2016, 03:32:53 PM »
What should I have prepared for trial? I've already provided texts, emails, recordings, etc. to my lawyer and now have the fun of assembling years of my financials, tax records, etc.  The judge is ordering a family assessor (like a GAL but for younger kids). We have a final court date that is several months out but I don't know what I can do in the meantime. I asked my lawyer about having witnesses testify but she said that rarely happens in family court.

This is all so mind bending. I don't want to destroy my H. I don't want to hurt him or ruin his (or my) life more than he already has. I actually feel bad for him despite how badly he's treated me at times! I just want to protect myself and our kids and find a new "normal." I know he hates me now, thinks he's the victim and that I'm overreacting. Honestly, it's confusing because I know our situation could be so much worse. He is "high functioning" and can be perfectly normal a lot of the time, but when he loses it... it's like a tornado of emotional destruction. Then the PD behaviors come out in full force. It honestly makes ME feel crazy because it's like dealing with very different people (although not in the multiple personality disorder sense). In court, I see that person who looks at me with cold eyes and contempt. I honestly can't wrap my head around the fact that this is the same man who has held my hand during child birth, shared my joys and dried my tears. How do you reconcile the two versions in your heart and mind?

With a PD's need to control and avoid abandonment how do we ever get closure through the legal system? Especially since we have kids together and he will always be in my life in that respect.

Thanks for listening to my ramblings and offering some advice. While I see a psych every few weeks, hearing from those of you who have actually experienced all this truly helps more than anything else.

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hhaw

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Re: What do they want?
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2016, 04:59:05 PM »
If I were you I'd put together a list of witnesses who have seen or heard things that could benefit your case.

When you have that list, write down what you think each can testify to.  When you examine it, strike off those you think won't be helpful, then ask the remaining to write out a witness statement.  The witness statement will be what you hand to your attorney when you bring up witnesses again, and your attorney sees why witnesses are imporatant and necessary to help prove your case.

You want to do everything you can to prepare for your day in court.  Just bc you have witnesses on your witness list does't mean you'll call them, and if you need them.... you did the work to make that happen.

The pd will be driven a little nuts worrying about what they'll say, maybe do something stupid, and you never know.... maybe a witness will be the key to helping your Judge figure out who's who?

Be as prepared as you can.  If you have a chance to document future pd communcations, make sure you're prepared.

Good luck,
hhaw
hhaw



What you are speaks so loudly in my ears.... I can't hear a word you're saying.

When someone tells you who they are... believe them.

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
Nietchzsche

"It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness."
Eleanor Roosevelt

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mdana

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Re: What do they want?
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2016, 06:09:06 PM »
 hhaw has great advise. 

I agree... they want power and control, even if it means you and he both spin down to nothing and end up on the street. They consider that "winning". That's why it's so important to keep your head ...and plan diligently to get out as quickly as you can.

It sure is nerve recking!  I had to hire 3 attorney's to help me (and 1 private investigator) to literally "corner" my ex into a settlement quickly enough to avoid losing all assets!  We filed the motion for court immediately, but fully intended on cornering him into a settlement (for us, it was just a strategy, but we were prepared to go if need be).  You have to pull out all the big guns early on.  They use brute force mentality (your stbx), so they only respond to in kind actions (I hope you have a solid, strategic thinker, junk yard dog of an attorney).

It's NOT about destroying your stbx...it's about protecting yourself and your children.  Surely, if he were reasonable....capable... honorable....mature... level headed...you wouldn't think this way.  BUT, doesn't sound like he has any such capabilities (even remote remnants or traces).

Look at it this way... you wouldn't hire Mother Theresa to prepare you for a boxing match with Mike Tyson would you? 

M

 
Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive. The Dalai Lama

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hhaw

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Re: What do they want?
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2016, 06:33:09 PM »
And that''s just it mdana.....
we try to spare the pd, we want to be kind.... do no harm, but it just slows the process, bc the pd is GOING there anyway.... and then we're behind the 8 ball playing defense.... disproving negatives..... wasting all our resources fighting a protracted legal struggle that's unavoidable, even thought there's nothing to be gained THAT MAKES SENSE.

And that's one things that makes it harder too.  No one wants to believe a father or mother would DO these things to their stbx and children without having cause.

If we go straight to playing hardball, we can cut out months or years of court struggle, IME. 

At least that's how I see it now. 

hhaw
hhaw



What you are speaks so loudly in my ears.... I can't hear a word you're saying.

When someone tells you who they are... believe them.

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
Nietchzsche

"It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness."
Eleanor Roosevelt

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mdana

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Re: What do they want?
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2016, 07:23:00 PM »
Totally agree hhaw....
I have lived it... TWICE!  The second time, I wised up though.

In any fight (physical, legal ...whatever) you have to match up the opponents with "like" representation, skill, strategy, strength, etc... I had to learn that the hard way! 

During the first divorce ...I ended up homeless with 2 kids (both under 4 years of age) because I didn't want to "hurt" him.  I wanted to be the "bigger" person, ethical and walking the strait path. I though surely, God would watch out for me, given that I was a Christian woman and all. I didn't understand what I was up against and fully did not know what he was capable of. All the prayer circles in the world didn't change the outcome.

He took the house and car (sold it for plenty of cash then immediately went on vacation). I kept the rest of the debts, huge attorney fee's and got to declare bankruptcy. Had no place to live with my kids, begged for rides to work, left my kids in daycare till after it was closed because I had no car... and had a nervous breakdown.  The therapist asked my ex to care for the kids so I could check in to the hospital for a bit AND, he said "NO... he was so upset too that he had to leave the country for a vacation to gather his thoughts". 

GOD HELP US ALL!

M
Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive. The Dalai Lama

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hhaw

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Re: What do they want?
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2016, 08:02:35 PM »
Another part of the equation....

we don't know what we're up against.

That;s the I in DIM thinking..... Denial, Ignorance, and Minimization.

I think sometimes that we're our own worst enemy, followed closely by the pd, and manipulated third party bystanders who aid the pd, and sabotage us for so many reasons... .whatever the pd needs to say to get them on the team, they'll say and do.

We, on the other hand, handicap ourselves with care about how we appear, and the desire to" be the bigger person", as you wrote.   We care.  We want everyone, including the pd, to be OK, and it's one of the most effective weapons the pd has against us, IME.

Wow, that's just sad to read.

hhaw
hhaw



What you are speaks so loudly in my ears.... I can't hear a word you're saying.

When someone tells you who they are... believe them.

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
Nietchzsche

"It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness."
Eleanor Roosevelt

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Kit99

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Re: What do they want?
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2016, 09:04:52 PM »
This is crazy. Honestly, I can't believe this is happening.

 HHaw, MDana- if you could tell yourself one thing back then that you wish you would have known/done- what would it be?

From the experiences you've shared, it sounds like you have been to hell and back again. I don't know how you've survived to tell your stories but I admire your resiliency and strength.

I have a handful of witnesses to some of his behavior but I don't know if the court will use family members (mine- and even his if they will man up). They have seen more than anyone else since the worst behavior typically happens in the house.