Question - Tired of responders adamant that divorce is the only option

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SPinSC

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I've become more and more concerned, as have others according to their posts, because of the overall negative, 'forget them, leave them, NC them' tone on this website regarding relationships. Even in the heading 'Committed to working on it'.

Now, I understand that many folks have been hurt unbelievably by the PD in their lives. I also understand that the recovery/improvement rate is very low or nonexistent. However, if I'm working on my marriage, I should not have post after post under what feels like attack!

One poster left the boards recently because she called folks out on a constant tone of 'Forget them, leave them, run for your lives' from nearly all posters, even in the 'Committed to Working On It' forum. I commented on that because I agreed with her. Now, I understand that her situation had included violence against her. But, if her choice in her life is to stay with him and see if anything can improve, who is anyone on this website to tell her she's making a mistake? Maybe she is, but isn't that HER decision?!? She's aware of the consequences. I'm aware of the consequences.

My point is, do I have a right to report all the negative - leave now - type posters responding on the 'Committed to Working on it' forum as responding inappropriately if they are already divorced and want to encourage everyone to divorce? What are they doing on the Committed to Working On It' forum anyway? Will anything be done about that?

This is supposed to be a supportive site. Up until recently, I have found it to be very much so. However, I have noticed more and more that divorced folks are heading into 'Committed to working on it' and recommending over and over to divorce. Every positive post about things going well is responded with - yeah, but that won't last and then what will you do?' type answers. It's getting very frustrating. Some of us DO see improvements in our spouses or partners. Some of us have NOT lost sight that our PD person is a PERSON first with a PD that affects their reasoning.

Would these people be so quick to leave a Down's partner because they could never contribute to the relationship as much as maybe they ought? How about a soldier returning from war with PTSD? How about a car crash victim who lost limbs and the ability to earn income? There are thousands of ways that a relationship can be unbalanced and thus 'unfair' viewed from the outside. There are untold numbers of spaces along the PD spectrum where each person falls. Not all N's are violent. Not all BPD are heartless. Not all PD's are incapable of introspection. Yes, most are, and yes even if we're the lucky ones now, as our PD ages they may get worse.

I'm frustrated. I want to be able to celebrate the little victories (like a post I responded to earlier today - another poster came along, ignored our uplifting comments and went about preaching her own theory of why the original poster should seriously consider divorce. really?) and the setbacks that go with our relationships. Just because I had a bad day does not mean I want to divorce my husband. Just because he had a bad day doesn't mean he's always treating me that way. Thinking like that is mighty close to the black & white, all or nothing, always / never thinking we say is bad in our PD's, isn't it? I just want to be able to cyber-pat another poster on the back for a good day and maybe get a cyber-shoulder-to-cry-on if I had a bad day with my PD. What I don't want is the 'crystal ball' analysis that my relationship is doomed and that I'm just delaying the inevitable and why am I even bothering trying to commit and work on it. Especially if I'm posting in what I consider 'MY' forum - the committed folks.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh. So have a lot of the posters lately. I'm trying to work on my marriage. I refuse to become hyperaware of all my husband's faults just to blast him and blame him for everything so I can walk out on him. He DOES have good traits as well. I'm tired of hearing over and over and over from so many divorced posters that I'm wrong and wasting my time working on it.

Thank you for listening.
I choose this day to rise up and be my best self, not succumbing to that which I sense is inside me, trying to drag me down.

Love is an action verb. You will know if it is genuine by the actions that support it, not by the frequency of the spoken words.

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xredshoesx

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if you think there is a problem with a post or a thread, be it tone or whatnot, please do report it.

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practical

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SPinSC,
your post really touched me. It comes from the bottom of your heart and shows how loving, caring and compassionate you are. I really admire how you are standing up for yourself, your values and what is best for you and your FOO. I'm not familiar with the "Committed to Working on it" board, and I'm very sorry for your recent invalidating, negative experiences. Like you, I think a decision to work on the relationship or to leave can only be made by the individuals involved, and it is your decision. I hope you still feel comfortable to share your stories, signs of progress or ask for help in a situation. I have always liked reading your posts when I came across them in the PD parents or Working on Us board and found them interesting and helpful. This post will stay with me for its eloquence in words and feeling. 
practical
If Im not towards myself, who is towards myself? And when Im only towards myself, what am I? And if not now, when? (Rabbi Hillel)

"I can forgive, but I cannot afford to forget." (Moglow)

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SPinSC

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Thank you for the answers, they do help.

I'm too much of a chatterbox and too invested in my cyber-friendships on this site to abandon it, even if I was frustrated. See, the thing is, I am a committed-type person. Enabler much? Maybe, but I'm working on me to be the best me I can be. This website has helped me find my way out of complaining and whining and into the wise words of 'Change what you can (me), Accept what you can't (my uBPD/CPTSD H), and educate/wizen up about the difference'. This is the best single take-away I've received from this website.

I am deeply grateful for the work that all of you moderators put into keeping this website a place of hope and a place of healing. Even if I am the one having to be reported and called out - at least I've learned that I, too, can cross a boundary - and can show my regret for having done so.

Thank you again!
I choose this day to rise up and be my best self, not succumbing to that which I sense is inside me, trying to drag me down.

Love is an action verb. You will know if it is genuine by the actions that support it, not by the frequency of the spoken words.

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hhaw

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Spin:

I'm really glad you're feeling hopeful about your marriage.  You're an adult ,and have every right to.  I'm sorry you don't feel supported. 

I did want to mention one thing I read in your OP that concerned me very much.

When you wrote about your SS23 not being able to leave the irrational argument he was having with his father.... it set off alarm bells.  SS23 understands he's unable to practice safe/healthy interpersonal boundaries with his father or risk violent outbursts (I'm paraphrasing, but something similar I think?)

In order to avoid this model becoming the FOO  your child holds up as "normal" all his life.... how are you handling that?  No one is protecting SS23 for reasons that appear to be "in the name of peace." 

Whether you stay married or not, you can't completely shield your son from the pd behaviors.  I'm not suggesting divorce would solve all your problems, for surely it would not.

I'm asking how you counter the pd behaviors, and limit the harm for your young son.

Good luck,
hhaw
hhaw



What you are speaks so loudly in my ears.... I can't hear a word you're saying.

When someone tells you who they are... believe them.

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
Nietchzsche

"It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness."
Eleanor Roosevelt

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SPinSC

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HHaw,

I've always respected your insights and opinions. Today is no exception. You bring up an excellent reason to consider what I can do.

The frustration I had was that I was supporting DSS23, even during the argument. DSS23 is VERY aware that his father has issues and that the way the older man handles things is fundamentally wrong. I have a greater challenge letting him know that I support him as I am a stepmother. His mother also has her issues, but that has to remain out of the conversation when I talk to DSS23 about better ways to handle things.

How I handle things with DS7 is much different. First of all, he's a child. Second of all, he's my biological child. For that reason, I feel a much greater responsibility to model as healthy a lifestyle as I can. Part of the reason that I've seen improvements in my husband is that I've pointed out some of the bad anger management responses in our son are the direct result of what he's seen in his father. It's taken a few years, but DH is starting to see that it is from HIM that our DS7 learned to cuss, throw things and have tantrums well after the terrible two's.

I also talk a lot with DS7 about better ways to manage his anger. He's very aware that I do not approve or support the way his father had handled things. I use these times to explain to our son that I can dislike the behavior but still love the person. I do acknowledge my shortcomings, my husband's shortcomings and the fact that we don't use shortcomings to treat each other badly. If he questions me about something his father did with/to me (condescending talk), I remind him that I will handle that with his father privately, just like I'm handling HIS issue privately. It is helping me to make more impact with DS7 that these instances of the 'lecture gone horribly wrong' are now so rare that the other day shocked me. I hold our DS7 accountable for what he does. I hold DH accountable for what he does. I just do it privately with each.

I took over the discipline of our son because I was aware that DH, without meaning to, could go overboard if not monitored. This has worked well. Now, in the usual reversal of roles rampant in our marriage, DH will tell son that Mommy will handle this when she gets home from work. It's added pressure that I'd rather not have, but my needs are trumped by our son's safety. DH will call me at work, tell me what happened and ask if I want to handle the discipline. I always say yes. I sometimes will tell him what I have in mind. Sometimes I prefer to think calmly about the offense (cussing at another student on the bus - one known to be a bully to our son), the values I want to impart (cussing is not ok, even if provoked - use other words to make the same point) and the impact of the punishment (no computer games for a week - it's important that you learn to control your mouth in given situations). My making DH and DS7 wait until I get home helps calm the whole situation down. DH gets to 'wash his hands' of the whole thing. DS7 gets to stew, knowing I won't be happy with him when I get there. I get to impart my decisions on discipline calmly. DS7 gets calm, reasonable parenting modeled for him.

I am very aware that my husband will backslide from time to time. He is also very aware that I will not tolerate verbal abuse of myself or our children and that I am very capable of kicking him out the door if he persists. We've been through this, so the last year has got much better. Yes, the damage was done. The major improvement for DSS23 was that he SAW and HEARD that I was not supporting his father, that I was supporting HIM because I saw that DSS23 was right. I didn't sit silent as his father railed on. I did all I could to defuse the situation. Because of that, DSS23 has been able to forgive his father the harsh words and be kind to both of us since that night.

DH has since asked if he messed up. I assured him that he had. I reminded him that I tried to end the conversation and that he cut me off. I told him that he owes his DSS23 an apology for getting cruel. I asked him that if he feels strongly about wanting to say something, make sure it's on the topic we started with - that will cut down on this wrong stuff. He took it all in. I don't know if he apologized to DSS23, but I suspect he has. I do know he's trying even harder to do the right thing by DS7, and telling me about it so he's sure I understand that he got my message.

To wrap up a very long post - I hear what you're trying to say to me. DS7 needs to remain my top priority. His safety is paramount, always. Helping him navigate this confusing world at all, especially given that his FOO has issues, is a challenge. I'm not always up to the challenge, but I do my level best. My DH isn't always up to the challenge, but I do believe he's trying his level best most of the time. Things are better than they were a year ago, overall.  This site, the tools I've learned here, the ability to post and thus get things off my chest before I stew on them too long all help me to be a better person, wife, mother than I was before discovering this site. My DS7 is less prone to outbursts or misbehavior than he was. He's less confused about how the world operates - and that our family isn't always the best example - than he was a year ago. He still clings to me as his preferred parent and holds our talk time each night as precious to him. He knows he has a voice with me and can bring up anything he wants to talk about. I give him expressive outlets and have discovered he's quite talented. DS7's health and safety remain top priority with me. DH and DS7 both know that.
I choose this day to rise up and be my best self, not succumbing to that which I sense is inside me, trying to drag me down.

Love is an action verb. You will know if it is genuine by the actions that support it, not by the frequency of the spoken words.

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hhaw

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Spin:

I knew you were aware, and invested in sheltering your son, and thank you for sharing on the topic.

That you spend time with your son before he goes to sleep sounds like it's a great time to revisit and clarify anything that needs straightening out..... the sad and happy choices family members made throughout the day.   

We can teach our children through our own mistakes..... explain what and why, all the ithe possible choices... good, better, best, and ask the child for his opinions, and thoughts.   Kids are pretty smart, really.

I have to blather on here, for my own internal understanding.... sorry.

If we can teach our children about the dysfunction, help them understand it, help them learn how to put healthy boundaries in place in spite of and perhaps bc of.... then perhaps our children will be ahead in some ways that level out exposure to dysfunction, etc. 

Sometimes my kiddos, esp the youngest dd13, will say things that sound like they came from a very old soul.   Very deep, and very in tune with reality.  Scary sometimes, really, and she's been doing it since she was 5yo that I noticed.

I suppose every child is different.  The extent our children are resilient, and capable of understanding what boundaries are....... that they aren't responsible for the dysfunction, and that everyone is doing their level best (so they can forgive us and move on) will determine to a greater or lesser degree what our children choose in their own lives. 

When do we teach them that one of their parents is broken, and can't do any better?  What does that mean to a young child who in their heart and mind is 50% mom, and 50% dad?  It's a tough one, IME.

When my children were 5 and 7 their T explained their father was "sick" and "made sad choices."  I think it was the way to go.  As they got older they needed more information in age appropriate language.  I gave it to them as they were ready to hear it.

I'm so glad your pdh is capable of self reflection... so many pd's just can't do that. 

You've probably tried to put rules in place surrounding discussions, but I'd lay out very basic rules that eventually become iron clad if possible:
1.  No yelling
2.  No sarcasm/cruelty
3.  Finish one topic before starting another
4.  No name calling/cussing
5.  One or both parties have permission to take a break after setting a time to come back and finish the discussion
6.  If anyone breaks a rule, the other party has permission to remove themselves until the offending party can follow the rules. 

It looks as though you're on the way to teaching pdh to do that, and if he can't, you're teaching your ds7 that's how it's supposed to be done.  Even if daddy makes sad choices, they can be framed as wrong choices, with better choices brought up, discussed, and made by other family members on a regular basis.

In any case, I'm hopeful for you and your family, Spin: ) 

hhaw





 

hhaw



What you are speaks so loudly in my ears.... I can't hear a word you're saying.

When someone tells you who they are... believe them.

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
Nietchzsche

"It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness."
Eleanor Roosevelt

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xredshoesx

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as a former stayer who was also in the midst of DV while in the relationship i can see both sides.  let's keep the lines of communication open on this one. i don't want anyone to be physcially hurt nor do i want people to make decisions that are not 100% what they feel is right.  we can't favor one over the other because each situation is so unique to both the way the PD/uPD dynamic alters the relationship between the partners involved. 


remember that anyone can report a post- they don't have to be in the thread or a regular member/ contributor on that part of the forum.  it's a way we can look out for the other members and get a second set of eyes on something.  when people are more actively involved in the forum it makes the forum better for everyone, kwim?


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SPinSC

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Thanks, Red

I think this topic was a little passive/aggressive of me. I don't want to get in trouble, or make someone feel bad about their post (people-pleaser to my core) and I SURE don't want to make someone not like me, even when I'm the one who's upset.

makes for an interesting marriage. I had to give up on everyone liking me all the time when I signed up for step-parenthood. Or marriage at all!

Thanks for reminding me that reporting a post I think is too far out there doesn't mean it'll get pulled or that I'm being a mean person. It just means you all will review it, given the thread in which it appears, and make a decision.

You'd think after all the posts I've had pulled in the last year that I'd have got that! Well, better late than never.

Have a great weekend!
I choose this day to rise up and be my best self, not succumbing to that which I sense is inside me, trying to drag me down.

Love is an action verb. You will know if it is genuine by the actions that support it, not by the frequency of the spoken words.

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xredshoesx

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no worries.  thanks again for bringing it up. 

the stay/ don't stay issue is so deeply personal.  to be honest, now i wonder if my ex's issues were his own, or he was reacting to my fleas because i had so much baggage from my childhood and FOO. 

what it came down to was that we didn't work as a relationship because of the stuff we both brought to the table and thankfully, i've been able to move on and have a healthier perspective of what my role is and how to handle my own stuff better because i broke the pattern of my own behavior and responses when i learned to stop caretaking for everyone else but myself.

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142757

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Re: Question - Tired of responders adamant that divorce is the only option
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2016, 05:23:45 PM »
I'm going to chime in even though I've "vowed" to stop posting, because I think what SPinSC has brought up is an underlying problem on the forum. It might get me in the penalty box, but all I'm doing is expressing my opinion.

I've noticed as SP has that posts advising to "get out" of the relationship is tolerated, but any advice that hints on how to endure is strictly policed. This, I thought, was to be a support forum. Not to support a single agenda. But to support those who are in any phase of a PD relationship. Whether they are just learning about it, trying to break free, trying to get over, or trying to endure. While a poster certainly has to expect perspectives from all angles, a poster shouldn't expect his committment to be shot down just because it doesn't mesh with the moderators at large.

Moderators are volunteering their time, energy & resources to keep this site running and all of us here are & should be thankful. But the mods should also feel that they have been given a trust. And part of that that trust is to put their own personal feelings aside when operating this site. If they don't want advice given, then they should act accordingly. Police, erase, edit all such postings. Emphasis.... all such postings. Whether they say "go" or "stay". "You should", "You need to" should be taken out of everyone's vocabulary here. If you are going to be fair in what is allowed.

But if they are going to treat us as adults, namely that all who come here recognize we are ultimately responsible for the choices we make regarding these issues, then be fair and supportive by letting all points of views be heard. It is doing visitors a disservice by censoring credible thoughts a mod might not like. Just because my marriage didn't work out, just because I have a negative attitude towards PPD sufferers, does not give me the right to manipulate others into thinking like me. My trust, my responsibility on this forum is to give visitors the observations of my experiences so that they can make the most informed choice in their situation. My personal feelings be damned.

I'm sorry. I know I'm stepping on toes. But this is meant as constructive criticism. Not as harsh or insulting. There are some in charge here who let their biases make their choices for them. And thus influence what is heard. That is not right. This place is run by committee so that no one person can overly influence what goes on here. Or so I thought. It would seem that there would be a check & balance there. But, to put it bluntly, some of the hypocritical decisions here in what gets edited and allowed leads me to believe mods support each other, not the community.

I'm sorry to any who are offended. If my wording left any with hurt feelings, please know the intention was to help this site remain as helpful in the future as it was to me in the past. It was not meant as a personal attack. But I think SpinSC's poll is a wake up call for OOTF.

C&Ping what I wrote on the other thread.

I would like to say this about reporting posts: I'm not looking to report people for expressing their opinion. If I thought someone was exceedingly rude, or was suicidal, then I'd use that feature. I'm of the opinion we all came here because of the undue stress PD brings into our lives. We don't need each other to add to that stress by nitpicking how this one used that word or that phrase. This should be a place to get relief from that kind of strain PD's put on us. Why imitate them?

So you're not going to see me clicking "report to moderator" for "jaywalking" on the site. We are all adults. We should be able to sift through the reactions we get up here and know what ever decision is made is ours alone. No stranger w/zero credentials should be able to manipulate us into making a choice one way or the other. That is not saying I think we should be allowed to tell others what to do in their situations. I'm saying such a strict approach shouldn't be necessary. We should already know how serious to take each one's statements.

But I don't run or own this place. Those that do have the right to decide what is best as a rule. The enforcement of that policy should be fair. So if the goal is to restrict posters from expressing to others what they think they should do, then my opinion is the "dump 'em" crowd has been allowed free rein. But that is not up to me to tattle on them. The people that care enough to make that policy are the ones who should be more even-handed when addressing it.
"Somedays you just can't get rid of a bomb."

Adam West (Batman)
9/19/28 - 6/10/17

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xredshoesx

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Re: Question - Tired of responders adamant that divorce is the only option
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2016, 06:28:27 PM »
the committed to working on us area recieves the fewest amount of reported posts.

on one hand you say we are too heavy handed with the moderation, yet at the same time you also say we should be entirely responsible for pulling the posts that need moderation.

it can't be both ways.  kwim?  my preference is to always try to draw things out on the board that can be productive in a discussion (such as what this thread is now) and leave the moderation to clear cut things where people are blatant, but that's just me.

sometimes it does take a few days to get the team to get a consensus as well, because this is all done on a volunteer basis-

when moderation has to be done, it's just that.  moderation.   it is not a judgment of someone's character- some positive changes have happened since i came here from another forum which was much more heavy handed in how they treated dissenting opinions.  discussions such as this one have led to things like adding more steps to the moderation steps  before a ban would even be considered, as well as the process in which a warning would drop off or become a hold-harmless item when moderation was being considered on current posts.

i think that if a member chooses to not report posts i can accept that decision because i can't tell another person how to think or feel, yet at the same time, it's not fair to charge the admin and mod team with the sole responsibility of making those decisions.  we need the members to feel comfortable when they are upset to hit that button.  they can hit it when they are triggered, or when it may be an emergency situation that they have great concern about.  it could be something that maybe just didn't sit right with them or something that they feel simply needs a second set of eyes. 

someone made a really good point on the other thread i think it was HHAW- a choice that we often forget about is the one to not engage back, or to engage at all.  we also do have the ignore option if members feel they don't want to see posts from certain members- and it's not permanent so it can be  changed  as necessary.

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SPinSC

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Re: Question - Tired of responders adamant that divorce is the only option
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2016, 07:00:20 PM »
Yes, one option I have begun using with greater and greater skill - the erase - or don't press post - option. Very useful.

Again - all who moderate now and in the past are GREATLY appreciated!
I choose this day to rise up and be my best self, not succumbing to that which I sense is inside me, trying to drag me down.

Love is an action verb. You will know if it is genuine by the actions that support it, not by the frequency of the spoken words.

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142757

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Re: Question - Tired of responders adamant that divorce is the only option
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2016, 11:11:46 PM »


on one hand you say we are too heavy handed with the moderation, yet at the same time you also say we should be entirely responsible for pulling the posts that need moderation.

it can't be both ways.  kwim? 

Actually it can & is. Say we live across the street from each other & I hate squirrels. You love them & like watching them. I chase them away whenever I catch them in my yard. You don't like it. You don't see my problem with them. But you know I have the right to maintain my property how I see fit. That doesn't mean if I'm not home you're going to call me up & let me know there is a squirrel on my front porch. And I wouldn't expect you to. The squirrels are my problem, not the neighborhood's. If the squirrels start tossing acorns through my neighbors' windshields, then I would expect them to make it their problem. And if I start saying brown squirrels are tolerable but the red ones are a menace, you're going to question my decision making, not just my hatred of squirrels.

I don't have a problem w/people reacting to some of the horror stories up here and saying they think a person should leave the situation. It's often my first inclination. I know I can't & shouldn't do that though. The moderators are the ones who have made that a no-no. OOTF is your property, your yard. What you say goes. But that is your wish, not my desire. I respect your right to take care of your yard as you see fit. (That's why I quit posting. Cause I knew I would not be able to police my words 100% in a way mods wouldn't take as offensive. Rather than go through, what I considered, the nitpicking, I just took my leave & stayed in my yard.) But the "squirrels" are your menace, not mine. Especially when it seems only the "red" ones are attacked. I've seen too many "You should leave", "you shouldn't put up with that", "you need to tell him" etc.,. for it to be taken seriously that mods don't want that kind of talk.

But believe me. If you change your mind and decide you love all squirrels, red & brown, it won't upset me in the least.

"Somedays you just can't get rid of a bomb."

Adam West (Batman)
9/19/28 - 6/10/17