Valley of the Dolls. Aunt has out PD-ed my mother

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UKannie

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Valley of the Dolls. Aunt has out PD-ed my mother
« on: December 05, 2016, 08:21:05 PM »
Regular reader of my posts will know that uNPD mother is forever guilt-tripping me, unmarried at 44 (with a life I am very happy with) for not giving her grandkids. She is also devastated my brother has recently gained some step-kids through his fiancee who, like me, is in her 40s. She makes incredibly insensitive comments about how couples should 'try everything' to get pregnant and basically tells me my life is meaningless without kids and says she pities me 'because I will never know the love of a child'  :roll: She says horrible things about the morals of my SIL-to-be and implies their wedding ceremony carries less meaning because she had kids with someone else a long time ago.

My aunt (who married my enDad's equally enBrother, my uncle) is very similar. She was deprived of grandkids herself until a few months ago. 18 months ago her only daughter married. She was very disappointed that a baby didn't happen straightaway. I found out from my mother at the weekend that, in a state of grief, my aunt had bought a 'Reborn' baby made of silicone some time ago. It has an electronic voice box fitted so it can 'cry' and she keeps it in her bedroom  :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh:

Now, some months later, my aunt has a grandson and my mother is furious. Before it was known that baby was on the way with my cousin. apparently my aunt introduced my mother to the doll. My mother regards this as 'insensitive' . I said for me 'the whole thing is creepy'. Mother pursed her lips and said 'aunt X was insensitive'. I said if anything is insensitive, it was towards my cousin who maybe thought for a while a baby wouldn't happen for her - what does her mother do? - she buys a creepy doll that cries!!! Mother purses her lips again.

I may as well be straight up about this. I think silicone 'reborn' dolls are creepy. They look dead. I see the appeal in real babies but for me it is all about them being alive and new to the world and watching them react and develop. I think you have to be PD'ed to be so obsessed with newborns that you are comforted by an unreactive lump of plastic and resin. i feel ashamed I have a mother who seems not to think that way. i am trying to be MC so I can't say anymore. My mother is like a 10 year old sometimes. Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised that she isn't incensed at the idea of a doll replacing a grandchild. Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised that she is dismissive of her new step grandkids because at 9 and 12 they are 'too old'.

If people want to collect dolls for a hobby that is fine by me. But if they see one as sufficiently similar to a newborn to evoke similar maternal feelings i question their sanity. My aunt was a nurse. My mother was a teacher. I would like to think that women with professional qualifications who have worked with children know better. But clearly they don't. It makes me quite angry.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2016, 08:30:51 PM by UKannie »

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Bloomie

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Re: Valley of the Dolls. Aunt has out PD-ed my mother
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2016, 08:48:46 PM »
UKannie - Okay... I am going to make the assumption that neither of these women are suffering from dementia....this is so odd and creepy and sad what is happening with these two women desperate for grand BABIES!! Not grand children!  I had to do a web search to see what they look like. Introducing this doll to your mom, your mom's only outrage is that it is insensitive because she doesn't have a grand baby. Mind. Blown.

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Spirit Girl

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Re: Valley of the Dolls. Aunt has out PD-ed my mother
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2016, 10:52:40 PM »
Yeah that! Creepy for sure. I've never heard of a 'Reborn'. No wonder you're angry, I would be too.

I noticed that you said your m is like a 10 year old sometimes. On another thread someone said that that's a big clue - that in fact some traumatic event likely occurred when she was that age of 10, thus there was no further emotional growth. Could that be the case? I recall the person said that unless that trauma was addressed, the uNPD wouldn't likely mature.
Myself I'd never heard of this cause/effect before - just passing it on in case it has significance to you.

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practical

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Re: Valley of the Dolls. Aunt has out PD-ed my mother
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2016, 11:42:37 PM »
Gross is another word besides creepy that came to my mind.  :aaauuugh:  Angry, because the doll was used as a weapon against your cousin, and for self-victimization, pity and drama. :dramaqueen:

My M never showed any real interest in her step grandchildren, because they weren't hers (as in mine, mine, mine!), which was good because it made it easy to never introduce them to her. They were about the same age as your future SIL's kids and thereby also per se no longer that interesting, as at that age they were already individuals and no longer projection surfaces. It might be better for your future nieces and nephews in the long term if she has no interest in them as sad as it is.

I would also get haunted about having my own kids, hints would include "I still have the hamper with all your baby cloths, those were expensive." or "I gave your toy blocks away, it doesn't seem you'll ever have use for them." or "I met your classmate, she now has 3 kids and asked me when you would have some (sure she did - not)."

Good for you for sticking to your life the way you like it. :hug:
If Im not towards myself, who is towards myself? And when Im only towards myself, what am I? And if not now, when? (Rabbi Hillel)

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UKannie

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Re: Valley of the Dolls. Aunt has out PD-ed my mother
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2016, 06:29:17 AM »
UKannie - Okay... I am going to make the assumption that neither of these women are suffering from dementia....this is so odd and creepy and sad what is happening with these two women desperate for grand BABIES!! Not grand children!  I had to do a web search to see what they look like. Introducing this doll to your mom, your mom's only outrage is that it is insensitive because she doesn't have a grand baby. Mind. Blown.
There is no dementia, no. Yes it is mindblowing. It puts everything into context. I have been pushed to have a baby ever since I turned 21 and always suspected she wanted the baby for herself - at one point when I was single she offered me money to get donor sperm. Also, she encouraged me to stay with an abusive ex-fiance because he told her he wanted children. After our break-up (I left him because he hit me very hard and threatened to kill me) she kept a picture of us as a couple by her bed.

It's been clear that she would like an endless multi-generational turnover of new babies as recently she has complained she is never going to be a great-grandmother and become fixated on the numbers of grandchilden and great-grandchilden other people have.  It's sad to see someone so maladaptive and whose inability to get to grips with her own obsessions is making her miserable and twisted - and - thinking about the doll situation, completely out of touch with what is normal and appropriate.

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UKannie

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Re: Valley of the Dolls. Aunt has out PD-ed my mother
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2016, 06:43:34 AM »
I noticed that you said your m is like a 10 year old sometimes. On another thread someone said that that's a big clue - that in fact some traumatic event likely occurred when she was that age of 10, thus there was no further emotional growth. Could that be the case? I recall the person said that unless that trauma was addressed, the uNPD wouldn't likely mature.
Myself I'd never heard of this cause/effect before - just passing it on in case it has significance to you.

Yes it's interesting. I know my mother hated secondary school (education from 11 yrs old upwards) and can't say why. I have wondered myself whether there was some sort of trauma. My T has said outright that she thinks my mother has Aspergers traits co-morbid with narcissism and that there would have been a big gulf between her emotional/social development and that of her peers around that time. She thinks that ever-widening gap in itself would have been traumatising for her.  (I know there are a lot of sensitivities around amateur 'diagnosis' of autistic spectrum disorders so it's a tricky topic to discuss online - I imagine people with Aspergers, or who have kids with Aspergers could take offence to the condition being casually associated with behaviours like my mother's, but I think it is relevant to mention my T's theory here and I think her suggestion that two conditions may be operating concurrently is interesting).
« Last Edit: December 06, 2016, 07:13:13 AM by UKannie »

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UKannie

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Re: Valley of the Dolls. Aunt has out PD-ed my mother
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2016, 07:01:39 AM »
My M never showed any real interest in her step grandchildren, because they weren't hers (as in mine, mine, mine!), which was good because it made it easy to never introduce them to her. They were about the same age as your future SIL's kids and thereby also per se no longer that interesting, as at that age they were already individuals and no longer projection surfaces. It might be better for your future nieces and nephews in the long term if she has no interest in them as sad as it is.
It's really helpful to hear of that experience and have that insight. I really have to accept that the step-kids are not going to be fully recognised by her as relatives, even after the wedding and I need to concentrate on my own relationship with them independent of that (I find them adorable). We had a family get together and - despite being an ex-teacher - she is very awkward around them, especially the 12 year old. I find it painful to see - it reminds me of how she was with me... she was so disinterested, unempathetic and unsupportive from 12 upwards that I was chronically depressed for years and eventually had a massive breakdown at 17. SIL is brilliant with her kids and my brother is respectful, kind, friendly and also very parental towards both of them and that is lovely to see, remembering how remote both my parents were when we were in our teens :'(

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practical

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Re: Valley of the Dolls. Aunt has out PD-ed my mother
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2016, 08:36:33 AM »
I really have to accept that the step-kids are not going to be fully recognised by her as relatives, even after the wedding and I need to concentrate on my own relationship with them independent of that (I find them adorable).
Have fun with the kids, you'll be a great aunt! And I hope there will be plenty of opportunities where you can see them without your M being present so you don't get triggered in the end.

UKannie and Spiritgirl there is a book that has really helped me better understand my parents and their emotional maturity (or lack thereof) independent of a diagnosis, it is "Adult Children by Emotionally Immature Parents" by Lindsay Gibson. It helped me understand what I'm dealing with, the effects it had on me and continued to have on me and how I can deal with the situation and heal.
If Im not towards myself, who is towards myself? And when Im only towards myself, what am I? And if not now, when? (Rabbi Hillel)

"I can forgive, but I cannot afford to forget." (Moglow)

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Spring Butterfly

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Re: Valley of the Dolls. Aunt has out PD-ed my mother
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2016, 08:42:18 AM »
Teacher = in control of children who must obey. Nurse = in control of those who rely on her for life. Makes sense their chosen progressions actually.

Children at 9 and 12 can't be controlled, they're already naturally individuating. Babies have an urge toward compliance in order to be cared for, it's a primal reflex, please caretaker = food and diaper changed. Add to that babies are helpless and easily controlled that's why PD persons generally want babies, not children.
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VividImagination

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Re: Valley of the Dolls. Aunt has out PD-ed my mother
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2016, 09:27:59 AM »
This doesn't surprise me at all. Babies are MASSIVE sources of supply, unconditional love, adoration, and acceptance... They love you no matter what you do to them. That's why Ns and many PDs discard children as they grow...they have outgrown their emotional usefulness to the PD. That's probably why your mother doesn't like older kids... That and when they haven't been raised in a toxic home they tend to see right through the PD, which is the PD's worst nightmare. A fake baby is better than no baby at all, since some PDs don't participate in our reality anyway.

My PD coworker practically salivates over my infant while ignoring my school age children... She offered to babysit ten minutes after I met her (uh no). She desperately wants another baby despite having two teens and never having a long term partner or even a current relationship.
There are three solutions to every problem: accept it, change it, or leave it. If you cannot accept it, change it. I f you cannot change it, leave it.

Sometimes you're damned if you don't and damned if you do, so damn well do what's best for you.

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DizzyKin

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Re: Valley of the Dolls. Aunt has out PD-ed my mother
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2016, 10:17:23 AM »
Since having kids something turned on inside me that makes me really broody when around babies. It's the wonder of seeing them learn and develop - everything's new, everything's fascinating, you can see it in their faces when they're trying to figure something out. I say this in the context of having always been someone who did whatever I could to avoid having to hold or be near babies before; I never saw and appreciated it in them before. But that's real babies.  Reborn dolls are the stuff of nightmares under the name of Chucky! I think being comforted by one because you don't have a grandchild infers extremely arrested emotional development.

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blacksheep7

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Re: Valley of the Dolls. Aunt has out PD-ed my mother
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2016, 12:22:39 PM »
OMG!  Yes, very creepy indeed.
I am reading the book Practical recommended:  "Adult Children by Emotionally Immature Parents" by Lindsay Gibson.  Very helpful.

VividImagination: babies are MASSIVE sources of supply.  Thank you. I just got a confirmation what my sister is all about.  This gut feeling I had.  When she called me or I saw her at family events, all  year, it was always about asking to see my grandkids, even though she has regularly.  Just that! 


I may be the black sheep of the family, but some of the white sheep are not as white as they try to appear.

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UKannie

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Re: Valley of the Dolls. Aunt has out PD-ed my mother
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2016, 09:34:45 PM »
OMG!  Yes, very creepy indeed.
I am reading the book Practical recommended:  "Adult Children by Emotionally Immature Parents" by Lindsay Gibson.  Very helpful.
Yes I want to get hold of that too - thanks Practical!
VividImagination: babies are MASSIVE sources of supply.  Thank you. I just got a confirmation what my sister is all about.  This gut feeling I had.  When she called me or I saw her at family events, all  year, it was always about asking to see my grandkids, even though she has regularly.  Just that!
I had a bad gut feeling about my mother as well. Her reaction to the doll scenario has given me a lot of validation also and it is quite a shock to be so right.
There is a documentary on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGl7fRz57Q8 about this and one of the case studies is of a grandmother whose daughter moved from the UK to New Zealand taking her grandson with her.  The grandmother in the UK reacts to this by having a doll custom-built to look like the grandson did as a baby. Her husband is horrified when he sees it. And she actually expects her real grandson to share her excitement about the 'baby' over Skype. It is very interesting to listen to her explanation at 26:36 in the context of the above discussion. And the sequence at 38:00 is actually quite shocking. Her grief is genuine but you detect a hint of vengeance about the whole exercise.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2016, 09:39:59 PM by UKannie »

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Crayola13

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Re: Valley of the Dolls. Aunt has out PD-ed my mother
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2016, 11:48:22 PM »
Regular reader of my posts will know that uNPD mother is forever guilt-tripping me, unmarried at 44 (with a life I am very happy with) for not giving her grandkids. She is also devastated my brother has recently gained some step-kids through his fiancee who, like me, is in her 40s. She makes incredibly insensitive comments about how couples should 'try everything' to get pregnant and basically tells me my life is meaningless without kids and says she pities me 'because I will never know the love of a child'  :roll: She says horrible things about the morals of my SIL-to-be and implies their wedding ceremony carries less meaning because she had kids with someone else a long time ago.

My aunt (who married my enDad's equally enBrother, my uncle) is very similar. She was deprived of grandkids herself until a few months ago. 18 months ago her only daughter married. She was very disappointed that a baby didn't happen straightaway. I found out from my mother at the weekend that, in a state of grief, my aunt had bought a 'Reborn' baby made of silicone some time ago. It has an electronic voice box fitted so it can 'cry' and she keeps it in her bedroom  :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh:

Now, some months later, my aunt has a grandson and my mother is furious. Before it was known that baby was on the way with my cousin. apparently my aunt introduced my mother to the doll. My mother regards this as 'insensitive' . I said for me 'the whole thing is creepy'. Mother pursed her lips and said 'aunt X was insensitive'. I said if anything is insensitive, it was towards my cousin who maybe thought for a while a baby wouldn't happen for her - what does her mother do? - she buys a creepy doll that cries!!! Mother purses her lips again.

I may as well be straight up about this. I think silicone 'reborn' dolls are creepy. They look dead. I see the appeal in real babies but for me it is all about them being alive and new to the world and watching them react and develop. I think you have to be PD'ed to be so obsessed with newborns that you are comforted by an unreactive lump of plastic and resin. i feel ashamed I have a mother who seems not to think that way. i am trying to be MC so I can't say anymore. My mother is like a 10 year old sometimes. Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised that she isn't incensed at the idea of a doll replacing a grandchild. Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised that she is dismissive of her new step grandkids because at 9 and 12 they are 'too old'.

If people want to collect dolls for a hobby that is fine by me. But if they see one as sufficiently similar to a newborn to evoke similar maternal feelings i question their sanity. My aunt was a nurse. My mother was a teacher. I would like to think that women with professional qualifications who have worked with children know better. But clearly they don't. It makes me quite angry.

Tell her those dolls is what they give to dementia patients in nursing homes who go around asking, "I can't find my baby."

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WomanInterrupted

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Re: Valley of the Dolls. Aunt has out PD-ed my mother
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2016, 02:44:49 AM »
Crayola - you just WON THE INTERNET!   :rofl: :udawoman: 

Seriously - those dolls creep the living shit out of me.  Many of them do look like, well...dead.

My parents had a doll and dollhouse shop and had an extensive collection of her own (read:   hoarder).  I'm *really* surprised unBPD mom didn't have an army of Reborns.

I'm actually glad she didn't, because she did some pretty disturbing things to some of the dolls she had.

Gee...if your mother thinks it's "insensitive" to be introduced to a doll (I can't believe I just used those words in *an actual sentence*  :blink:), WHAT on earth will she think if she's ever introduced to your cousin's BABY?

Oh, the humanity!   :roll:

And yes, that Reborn doll was such a *lovely* way to invalidate your cousin and emotionally blackmail her.   >:(

On the bright side, maybe your Aunt will gift your mom her Reborn and your mom will get off your cute little behind and *leave your reproductive choices alone.*   :yahoo:

After all, they have been introduced...  :barfy:

Or will that Reborn be seen as a "dirty" and "unwanted" Reborn because it's *a second-hand Reborn?*   :wacko:

The mind, it boggles.   :phoot:

You're going to be a *fantastic* Aunt to all your new nieces and nephews - and your new cousin, too.   ;D

Except for the plastic one. 

I'm the kind of person that would give the plastic one to the real children to play with until they broke it.   :evil2: :ninja:

Unless it would unnecessarily cause WWIII, with the battle cry, "YOU KILLED KENNY!" (You bastards!)

BTW...that's a really good way of knowing whether your disordered family member has *really* gone off the deep end - if you've ever been accused of killing an *inanimate object.*

And yes, yes I have.   :stars:

 :hug: 

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DizzyKin

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Re: Valley of the Dolls. Aunt has out PD-ed my mother
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2016, 07:24:19 AM »
Quote
Or will that Reborn be seen as a "dirty" and "unwanted" Reborn because it's *a second-hand Reborn?*

Oh come on now, clearly she'll have saved the Reborn from a life of being unwanted and unloved, that Reborn deserves better than to be treated as second best to an actual baby! Reborn is just lucky there's some one there who cares and who's willing to take on the burden!

 :chickendance:

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HotCocoa

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Re: Valley of the Dolls. Aunt has out PD-ed my mother
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2016, 08:25:08 AM »
So, after reading this post, I went on google and went  :aaauuugh:
My mil had one of those.  She had a change of clothing for it and everything.  I guess it was her surrogate baby when my real ones weren't available to her?  It's just so creepy.  I guess I never put two and two together before now, just thought it was always a little odd.  Now I know.   :sadno:
The smarter you become about narcissistic abuse, the crazier the narcissist will say you are.

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VividImagination

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Re: Valley of the Dolls. Aunt has out PD-ed my mother
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2016, 09:11:04 AM »
WI, you're slaying me with your South Park references.

One day I need a book on those disturbing doll things....for some reason the Gone With the Wind diorama came to mind immediately.

Didi of the Dolls.
There are three solutions to every problem: accept it, change it, or leave it. If you cannot accept it, change it. I f you cannot change it, leave it.

Sometimes you're damned if you don't and damned if you do, so damn well do what's best for you.

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Spring Butterfly

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Re: Valley of the Dolls. Aunt has out PD-ed my mother
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2016, 09:17:48 AM »
This whole post :rofl:
Every interaction w/ PD persons results in damage-plan accordingly, make time to heal
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TheDamagedDiamond

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Re: Valley of the Dolls. Aunt has out PD-ed my mother
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2016, 03:49:20 PM »
UKannie - Okay... I am going to make the assumption that neither of these women are suffering from dementia....this is so odd and creepy and sad what is happening with these two women desperate for grand BABIES!! Not grand children!  I had to do a web search to see what they look like. Introducing this doll to your mom, your mom's only outrage is that it is insensitive because she doesn't have a grand baby. Mind. Blown.

[bold in Bloomie's quote by me]

Believe me, its not just children either. It extends to animal family members as well.

My sister has "control me" syndrome and probably a dependent personality disorder, dash or more of bpd. She got pregnant by an unreliable partner on purpose and gave birth last March. My sister is...playfully beginning to complain that my one-year old nephew now has body odor and not that fresh baby smell. When my cats were kittens, she loved them but when they got big she didn't want to take care of them anymore (clean litter, feed them, give them attention). She will yell at my cats and throw things at them, violently shove them off her bed to get them to leave her room, regardless of what they're doing. The last time she was affectionate with one of them was with the smallest cat; Olivia the cat was shrunken and fragile after emergency surgery and being near death because of a pyometra. (We didn't have the money for the surgery but were able to borrow it, albeit from an undesirable source, so Olivia was saved but it was a traumatic experience for me.) My sister demanded I let her keep Olivia in her room because she was "so cute and little" and helpless. After Olivia recovered from surgery, didn't need to eat kitten food anymore, and got better...my sister kicked her out of her room.