A Covert Narcissist DIL

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Mrs.Ghosty

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A Covert Narcissist DIL
« on: January 04, 2017, 10:34:15 PM »
Hello and help! I don't really know how to contain this saga in a nutshell and probably should not even try.  My oldest son married in 2008 and all things since the very second time the family was with her .....4 years before the engagement,  pointed to covert narcissism.  I tried on two occasions during the 2 pre-engagement  years to express to my son my own concerns as well as the concerns a long-time friend/co-worker of his had  shared with me. All to no avail, as he made excuses for her demeaning and  belittling treatment of mostly myself and his (female) co-worker  at that point and the outbursts that would happen seemingly "out of nowhere",   so the wedding happened in 2008 and the years since have  not been pleasant or pretty for anyone in our family. Though my daughter and I seem to be her favored targets this has had a tragic impact on our whole family as well as long time close family friends whom she  alienated with her very peculiar accusation of THEIR "selfishness" . When I finally took a stand against this abuse, rather than just walking away from her when she became abusive , all the shit hit the fan.  Long story short, my son cut off  contact with his 3 siblings and my husband and I.  That was almost 4 years ago now.   There IS  a bit of good news these last 4 years but basically the estrangement remains.  Growing up I had a much older SIL whom my therapist cousin tells me was BPD and my MIL was an overt narcissist and at 64 years old  I just cannot seem to face more of this in my life. I have twice talked to my therapist about this matter and she tells me I do not need to be paying her to discuss all of this as I understand all too well what this is all about. I have also twice been to the therapist with my son and he afterwards put the kaibosh on the therapist's plan for how to move past this.   I guess I am hoping to find another mother in this forum  who finds herself in the same sad situation. 

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xredshoesx

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Re: A Covert Narcissist DIL
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2017, 11:37:29 PM »
welcome to the forum Mrs.Ghosty,

i am so sorry that you are currently not in contact with your son, i can imagine how frustrating and sad that is for your DH and your other children.  sadly, you are not alone, we have other parents, especially mothers, who have been cut off or cut out from their children and/or grandchildren because of an in-law that has a uPD/ PD.  i know that for many of the members, not being in contact is a last resort, and in your situation, it sounds like your DIL is using it more to punish you and control the relationship between everyone involved.

i hope you;ll get a chance to check out the toolbox-

Toolbox     

you can find other parents in similar situations posting here

http://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?board=38.0


hope to see more of you on the boards soon- this is a very difficult time with the holidays and all, and it takes a lot of courage to reach out and seek validation and support.

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freedomspeace

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Re: A Covert Narcissist DIL
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2017, 04:51:30 AM »
I am so sorry you are going through this, the grieving can be so sad at times

Yes we are in the same boat
not quite a complete disconnect, but its right around the corner

my DIL straight up told me if I ever crossed the line with her that she would make sure I would not see my son or granddaughter

I never told my son this happened

he did tell my husband several years ago "I know *** is hard on mom"
and around the same time he told me he knows he has a problem at home
since that time my son has withdrawn from us
not so happy, not so open, drinking more than he should

my DIL has worked at ostracizing us from our son and granddaughter for the last 4 years
all I have done is keep my mouth shut
and decreased contact steadily over this time
my health has suffered terribly

I miss my son and granddaughter desperately
we are trying to stay in touch with our son
he is allowed to go to beer with my husband every few months
but not allowed to have even a couple moments private conversation with me
He gets ripped into, insulted over the most ridiculous reasons in public

I understand how this is soul wrenching

most recently I was told we are not to be trusted
- payback for texting NO to her, I refused to give an explanation

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Maisey

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Re: A Covert Narcissist DIL
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2017, 01:55:08 PM »
I have an estrangement from my oldest for the about the same time ,also.

I do wish my oldest D  happiness in  life, but it can't come at the expense of the rest of family. Not only was she causing trouble, she landed a husband that was even worse and she was covering for his actions towards myself and the younger children.

M.


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Mrs.Ghosty

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Re: A Covert Narcissist DIL
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2017, 04:02:12 PM »
Thank you all for the welcome and responses. It seems I am replying to three people at once here? Please let me know if this is the case? The website isn't easy to figure out and navigate.  It is not easy to reply to three people simultaneously  if that is what I am doing. Is there a way to respond individually to your  notes? E-mail? Thanks in advance for the help!

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xredshoesx

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Re: A Covert Narcissist DIL
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2017, 04:15:03 PM »
you replied to all of us!

when you post a response, everyone else who has participated in the thread can see, and respond again as many times as they choose.  you can get fancy and quote people if you need to, but most people just say 'thank you xredshoesx' or whomever they are responding to.

i don't know if you use other social media, but the threads/ discussions are similar to a facebook post where everyone can see and respond.  that way everyone can get the benefit of the conversations that unfold-

you're doing great so far.  i never would of thought that a computer would allow me the ability to network and communicate with so many other people, but at times they sure can be frustrating!

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Mrs.Ghosty

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Re: A Covert Narcissist DIL
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2017, 07:34:34 PM »
Ok, thanks for that clarification xredshoesx. I have checked out the toolbox and  thanks for pointing me there! 

Maisey your situation with both your D and her spouse exhibiting PD behaviors (I am assuming this true of your D?)  sounds entirely heartbreaking and  hopeless...this is the saddest situation I can imagine. I am so sorry. I don't know what recourse there can be for your family's protection other than going NC as you have. The two PD's together??!!    My son, nonPD,  also  "covers" for his PD wife...making excuses for  inexcusable behaviors, (as did my brother for 50 years with his PD wife)  and it seems that such enabling creates its own special blend of sadness and discord in a family.

 ..and like your son Freedomspeace,  we have watched our son  become more and more withdrawn over the years..."not so open, not so happy".....TENSE!   Tense yes, because who can ever anticipate  what might set the PD off next? We are a relaxed bunch but our whole family found itself walking on eggshells in her company. We have seen our son get ripped into in public also like your son Freedomspeace, BUT.... since he has told you he knows he has problems at home, and knows that "*** is hard on Mom",  have you encouraged him to seek therapy for himself? Our son entered individual therapy of his own accord after our situation  blew wide open  and we have since learned that the two have started marriage counseling. It was shocking to us to learn  DIL agreed to this, (as we know and have heard directly from DIL that any interpersonal discord is always entirely  the fault of the "other")   but surely gives us some  hope for eventual reconciliation. And our son is coming down soon to see the therapist with his brother.  We used our airline miles for his plane ticket. 

All of the above is simply to say,  Freedomspeace, that  I hope your husband will encourage your son to seek individual counseling. It sounds to me like he would be open to the idea. It's a start in extricating himself from the prison that PD's construct around their partners...He is "allowed" to see his father every few months?  I am especially sorry to learn you have a granddaughter in the midst of this. How old is she?  It is sad for my H and I that there are no grandchildren in this marriage but I always hoped there would not be.....for obvious reason.  DIL could not possibly tolerate the "competition" and our son would have to two small children to tend to on his own and a little one in such a trainwreck?? It must be so heartbreaking for you...   

 In the meantime, my own son has accused me of "poisoning the whole family against ***" ....as if no one else has been hurt, shocked and  and horrified by her behaviors.....the arrogance, entitlement, jealousies and all the rest we have all seen and heard, and/or the rest of the family have no minds of their own?   We all began expressing  misgivings to each other from the very start...one son after the very first meeting told the family that he had never in his life met anyone as selfish as she is...the rest of us  missed that but on second meeting we all heard her tear  into our son in the public place we were in together and she openly sneeringly mocked me, like a young, angry  child might do, in front of my son.   WOW!....she has no reason to hate me yet but she treats me this way? This was very early on in the relationship and I thought for sure he'd break it off with her.  She also has histrionic behaviors...flashing her breasts at her BIL on TWO occaisions?  ....one of which I saw myself.  Often dresses very seductively as well and has posted pictures of herself on FB in "sex kitten" poses and one  really shocking one recently with only  pasties on her nipples. 

Anyway...despite all the misgivings the family had from the very start we all have done everything possible to make her feel welcome and important in the family and allowed  hurtful things to slide off our backs for the most part....until DIL accused my daughter of making the cake for DIL's own 40th birthday party only to "take the attention away from me." WOW!!...WHO thinks like this??? Only PD's of course. ...and that was the straw that broke my back. I sometimes will start to admonish myself for dropping the bomb I did that blew the lid off of it all but then realize ....I seriously doubt my son would have taken himself to therapy if things had just gone on as they were  and having watched 50 years of my brother's life with a PD and no professional help  I could not bear the thought of that sort of painful history repeating itself in my own family with my son. 
   Ya...I TRIED with DIL despite everything. Making an effort to connect with her  over the 10 years  I can't recall more than one conversation with her which I did not politely excuse myself from though because she invariably would become demeaning, dismissive, arrogant.  The eye rolling and little  sounds of disgust  accompanying the dismissive words/tone of voice  and haughty body language.  My therapist, the same one I saw with my son twice and who will see my two sons together this month,  told me not to engage her at all beyond a warm welcome and a compliment. If she comes to me and says something I can agree with...then agree, but if it is something I have a different idea about, reply only with "Oh" and move away. "For your own protection never share any of your own opinions about anything with her."     Nice "relationship", huh?
  Gosh...lots to talk about. I guess we all need to unload. Wishing peace to all in this new year..... 

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freedomspeace

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Re: A Covert Narcissist DIL
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2017, 11:02:43 PM »
We have encouraged therapy
our DIL states that they just cant afford it (gas) I offered to give money for gas, DIL went off

son is "allowed" to see his father every few months?

as expected this last Beer date was a bust
son says yes he want to go
next we hear son is to busy (again)

husbands says ok, when will you be available, son is vague,  "to busy"
my husband lost his father week of thanksgiving
our sons says dad lets get together right after college finals for a beer
here we are into January and son has not been able to break free for even a couple hours
we have been watching
and anticipating that this would go by the wayside also

Christmas
there was no get together at grandmas house this year
we were allowed to drop gifts at there house saw the girls for 1.5 hours
"we need to get going out with friends to drive in movie"

 Mrs Ghosty every nuance here is an example of my DIL also
....the arrogance, entitlement, jealousies and all the rest we have all seen and heard,
.... tear  into our son in the public place we were in together and
..... she openly sneeringly mocked me, like a young, angry  child might do, in front of my son. 
....she has no reason to hate me yet but she treats me this way?
....She also has histrionic behaviors
.....flashing her breasts at my husband and other son more times than i can count
 ....SEVERAL of which I saw myself. 
....Often dresses very seductively as well....IN front of granddaughters school class room and sports group


....every single thing you have written here is a mirror image as to what my DIL has done

we have tried for years to be kind and generous to a fault (yes we have reeled that in)

I have been told for years now that I am not enough, not generous enough, not active enough with my granddaughter
the first year + that they moved into town, we had sleepovers playdates several times a month
then somewhere in there I stepped over a line
-suffice to say it was a conversation topic that she completed twisted what i said,
now I know better I did not say anything wrong or inappropriate

that was the end of that, I apologized to no end, nothing I said was good enough
somehow I had betrayed her


18 months in a row I asked for play date
every month I was told no
I finally stopped asking

a few months later my son berates me via text msging
 (we suspect our DIL got ahold of our sons phone)
that I am not doing enough with my granddaughter
I pointed out all the No's I received regarding playdates, all the non invites to school celebrations, birthday parties, holidays

So once again I step up my efforts, to no avail

we did make one decision this last summer that pushed DIL button

we get our grandson from out of state a coupe times a year
I always include invites for Son and family to join

son and DIL asked to take grandson for the day
we said NO, DIL asked why, my reply was "Just No" (no explanation given)
we have watched for years now the damage DIL inflicts on granddaughter, son, our youngest son, nephew
we have watched her rip into strangers kids at the pool at there apartment walk away bragging about how she bullied children

that was the end
I was told "obviously you dont trust us, so now I dont trust you"
I am now relegated to visiting with my granddaughter supervised at DIL home if I want to see granddaughter

this was before thanksgiving
I have not been able to bring myself to do it
I feel so guilty for not asking to spend time with granddaughter
but what does that show my son and granddaughter
its ok to punish grandma because she doesn't kiss mommies a**

its devastating
trying to be apart of someones life who does not want me



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Mrs.Ghosty

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Re: A Covert Narcissist DIL
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2017, 04:54:02 PM »
 Your last sentence sums up the feeling perfectly ... "It's devastating trying to be a part of someone's life who doesn't want me."  As my adult niece told me fairly recently re: her BPD mother: "Anyone who my Dad was close to or who wanted to be close to my Dad was a threat to my Mother" ...and that seems to be it in a nutshell. (For 50 years my family of origin thought that my brother's BPD wife hated only us!?) The partner's world becomes smaller and smaller as the PD alienates more and more people. Of course...it's the best way to ensure complete control so there is no one around who might verbalize their concern about the abuse/distorted perceptions  to the "prisoner" .

So it won't matter what you do or say or don't do or don't say it won't be right or good enough or generous enough  because as the Mothers you are I are the biggest threat and prime target and need to be banished.

 I am wondering if your son has any friends left even?

 My DIL has done  a good job of shutting a lot of people out of my son's life.  The long time co-worker/friend  I mentioned who told me, "*** has made it very clear to me that I am not welcome in A's life". The friend since nursery school whom *** accused of being "selfish" because he paid for  4 days vacation home/food entertainment for all attendants for son's bachelor party and sent son a plane ticket to get there, and then "only gave us $80 for a wedding present".   (and son jump's in with, "My bachelor party wasn't something that benefitted ***"  Of course....EVERYTHING must benefit the PD, right?)  This couple have both been around the family for so long that they are family friends and the wife said to me, "*** is a vicious, daggers-out person and I just don't want her in my home."  I could not disagree with that assessment  and do not at all blame her!   Then there was the friend of son whom *** derided as being, "all about, me,me,me,me,me!!!" The family dinner table went silent  at that because we know that friend since son's teenage years and  to us ***  was describing herself!!  ....as was she describing herself with her very peculiar definition of "selfish" in the other situation...

The projection onto others of their own very obvious unflattering character traits is stunning!! Have you noticed  this in your own DIL?   *** told my daughter to her face, "I perceive you as competitive, combative, and catty". A friend of younger  son who was told about this said, "I have spent enough time with both of them to know that *** is describing herself with those words!" 

And OH WOW  do I relate to how your DIL twisted that conversation to put you in the doghouse!!  Somehow in her mind you insulted her?

I described to my therapist a convo I started with my DIL  saying, "Oh ***, I like your new music even more than I like your earlier music" (the two write and perform music together) I could tell from body language, facial expression and tone of voice in her response that she took this as an insult. I was totally baffled but trying to redeem myself the convo just deteriorated even further from there. I do NOT want to be biting back at her so  I politely excused myself.

Therapist explained to me that trying to converse with a PD is almost like trying to speak English to someone who understands not a word of it. Therapist  told me that what DIL probably heard in what to any HEALTHY  person would be a compliment was, "I don't like your early music"    WOW...knocked my sox off that did!  ..and that is not the only thing she twisted in her mind.

My intuition  is that PD's will find a way to twist anything into something ugly  when it comes from those they find most threatening to their power over their  partner.   Just as the cake my daughter made for DIL's birthday was perceived to be a self-centered gesture to "take all the attention away from me". (Daughter is an artist so cake was quite lovely and peeps did ooo and ahh....for just a little bit! Then called for "speech, speech!" from Birthday "Girl"...putting focus back on her)  Therapist told me that PD's have no understanding of generosity so any generous gesture is suspicious to them....PD's do nothing nice for others unless there is some direct pay-off for themselves (strings they can attach) so there is no understanding whatsoever of selfless  generosity.   
 
I'm so sorry to hear your DIL put the kaibosh on therapy. It seems to me to be the only hope for any progress and change. And  she "went off" on you for offering to help with gas money?  Your DIL sounds quite a bit more  overt and openly confrontational/aggressive   than mine is.

Females seem to be the major targets for my own DIL.  YOUR DIL has flashed her breasts also?? Did I understand that correctly?  UGH!!!  ya...they can play  the seductive siren to all the men around....

The very saddest part of your situation to me is the cut off from your granddaughter. Now only DIL supervised visits with her are permitted? I don't know how I would deal with that myself and can understand how you cannot bring yourself to agree. Can you at least call your granddaughter from time to time and have a little conversation with her to assuage your guilt and so that she continues to know you love her?  If I were you I would head to my therapist and ask for assistance in dealing with DIL's new  "punishment" of you. This is SO difficult and painful to deal with on ones own.  Do you have a therapist? Blessings to you Freedomspeace....

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freedomspeace

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Re: A Covert Narcissist DIL
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2017, 06:24:36 PM »
Mrs Ghostly

EXACTLY - So it won't matter what you do or say or don't do or don't say it won't be right or good enough or generous enough  because as the Mothers you are I are the biggest threat and prime target and need to be banished.

 I am wondering if your son has any friends left even?

 My DIL has done  a good job of shutting a lot of people out of my son's life.  The long time co-worker/friend  I mentioned who told me, "*** has made it very clear to me that I am not welcome in A's life". The friend since nursery school whom *** accused of being "selfish" because he paid for  4 days vacation home/food entertainment for all attendants for son's bachelor party and sent son a plane ticket to get there, and then "only gave us $80 for a wedding present".   (and son jump's in with, "My bachelor party wasn't something that benefitted ***"  Of course....EVERYTHING must benefit the PD, right?)  This couple have both been around the family for so long that they are family friends and the wife said to me, "*** is a vicious, daggers-out person and I just don't want her in my home."  I could not disagree with that assessment  and do not at all blame her!   Then there was the friend of son whom *** derided as being, "all about, me,me,me,me,me!!!" The family dinner table went silent  at that because we know that friend since son's teenage years and  to us ***  was describing herself!!  ....as was she describing herself with her very peculiar definition of "selfish" in the other situation...

The projection onto others of their own very obvious unflattering character traits is stunning!! Have you noticed  this in your own DIL?   *** told my daughter to her face, "I perceive you as competitive, combative, and catty". A friend of younger  son who was told about this said, "I have spent enough time with both of them to know that *** is describing herself with those words!" 

And OH WOW  do I relate to how your DIL twisted that conversation to put you in the doghouse!!  Somehow in her mind you insulted her?

I described to my therapist a convo I started with my DIL  saying, "Oh ***, I like your new music even more than I like your earlier music" (the two write and perform music together) I could tell from body language, facial expression and tone of voice in her response that she took this as an insult. I was totally baffled but trying to redeem myself the convo just deteriorated even further from there. I do NOT want to be biting back at her so  I politely excused myself.

Therapist explained to me that trying to converse with a PD is almost like trying to speak English to someone who understands not a word of it. Therapist  told me that what DIL probably heard in what to any HEALTHY  person would be a compliment was, "I don't like your early music"    WOW...knocked my sox off that did!  ..and that is not the only thing she twisted in her mind.

My intuition  is that PD's will find a way to twist anything into something ugly  when it comes from those they find most threatening to their power over their  partner.   Just as the cake my daughter made for DIL's birthday was perceived to be a self-centered gesture to "take all the attention away from me". (Daughter is an artist so cake was quite lovely and peeps did ooo and ahh....for just a little bit! Then called for "speech, speech!" from Birthday "Girl"...putting focus back on her)  Therapist told me that PD's have no understanding of generosity so any generous gesture is suspicious to them....PD's do nothing nice for others unless there is some direct pay-off for themselves (strings they can attach) so there is no understanding whatsoever of selfless  generosity.   
 
I'm so sorry to hear your DIL put the kaibosh on therapy. It seems to me to be the only hope for any progress and change. And  she "went off" on you for offering to help with gas money?  Your DIL sounds quite a bit more  overt and openly confrontational/aggressive   than mine is.

Females seem to be the major targets for my own DIL.  YOUR DIL has flashed her breasts also?? Did I understand that correctly?  UGH!!!  ya...they can play  the seductive siren to all the men around....

The very saddest part of your situation to me is the cut off from your granddaughter. Now only DIL supervised visits with her are permitted? I don't know how I would deal with that myself and can understand how you cannot bring yourself to agree. Can you at least call your granddaughter from time to time and have a little conversation with her to assuage your guilt and so that she continues to know you love her?  If I were you I would head to my therapist and ask for assistance in dealing with DIL's new  "punishment" of you. This is SO difficult and painful to deal with on ones own.  Do you have a therapist? Blessings to you Freedomspeace....
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Eggshell Walker

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Re: A Covert Narcissist DIL
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2017, 07:35:41 PM »
Mrs. G and Freedomspeace,

I read all your posts with great sadness for you both but at the same time very eye opening for me.  Our eldest son is 6 months into his marriage with an uNPD woman. She is getting worse as times goes on.  They dated for 6 years prior to marriage and during those 6 years numerous family members, friends and neighbors warned our DS about this woman. Months before they were engaged, she requested to meet with me privately. Hindsight - I should not have gone alone. She ripped me up and down and gave me the threat of not seeing my grandchildren if I didn't back off of my son and quit texting him and calling him and inviting him to do things with our family. They were not even engaged at this point but she told me that they WOULD be getting married and that I would just have to 'deal with it'. I felt totally disrespected as my children have never and would never speak so rudely to me or anyone else for that matter - much less to a future in-law.

Since they've been dating, I've gone out of my way to accommodate her. Our entire family tip toes around her. My DS literally pleads with me to 'not rock the boat' around her. I am told to continue to text her and be concerned about her health - she's an admitted hypochondriac. Any invitation to do anything is to be extended to her and her 13 year old son. Our DS can not do anything without her - anything. He has no male friends any more. No guys to hang out with. It saddens me as a mother to see my adult child in this marriage. She bullies not only her friends but her son, my son, her parents, my DH and me.

A few years before they were married my uNPD DIL told me that she wanted to find a man to marry so that she didn't have to work and could stay home all day. Well, my son is that man!  She refuses to work tho she is quite able to do so. She gets her nails done, hair done and does lunch dates with friends.  Now she's 8 weeks pregnant ----the drama is ramping up! It's going to be a L O N G remaining 7 or so months, especially for our DS. I hope he sees the light sooner than later.

Last night we had tickets to an event. $200/ticket. 3 people in our group could not attend so I offered the tickets to my DS and family. My DS was thrilled to have the opportunity to attend the event. An hour before we were due to leave, he called me and said that they would not be able to go. After much conversation, he told me that my DIL said that since they were not our 'first choice' to give the tickets to, they would not attend - she didn't want to be a 'second-choice'.  How do you deal with a person like this?!

Thank you all for your input on this topic -

E W

** Don't say you miss me when you're the reason I'm gone. **

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freedomspeace

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Re: A Covert Narcissist DIL
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2017, 08:05:21 PM »
my apology looks like I did not edit out a good portion of your story in my reply


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freedomspeace

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Re: A Covert Narcissist DIL
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2017, 09:23:39 PM »
I am so sorry
I know it feels like grieving, its like a death, it can be crushing

Take care of yourself FIRST.....be sure to find a good therapist

hmm..... you are supposed to text your concern regarding her health
but she is not required to treat you with concern / respect

this ticket incident is so typical
BUT to be sure you will never be her first choice for anything

lesson learned here
- you do not offer to include her (them) in the future
your response "i would not want you to feel like you were our second choice"

I collect responses in my journal
I'm not good at this quick tart sharp tongue and cheek stuff

upcoming birth of the new grandchild
work on setting boundaries now
there will be a lot of unspoken expectations - yes it will be expected you should know what she expects
you already know what is appropriate hold your ground, respect yourself first

I have a friend who keeps telling me "you lost your power somewhere along the line"
I do not believe that
Narc folks do not respect anyone, they are not capable, they are at war full time in there minds
the rest of us are looking for calm and peace fulltime

the only boat you need to be concerned about is yours "boundaries" what are you willing to do for you, your peace of mind, what you know is right for you

the part that rips me to pieces is that my DIL gave me just enough rope to hang myself
wonderful amount of contact and interaction with my granddaughter, totally fell in love with this little person
then totally ripped her away from us
every excuse she could come up with to deny us access

my GD told me when she was 5 that "mommy says Ms. XXX (down stairs neighbor) is a better grandma than you"
GD even had mommys snear in her tone like mommy does
what do you say to a 5 year old
I told her that every little girl deserves lots of grandmas and papas and aunties and uncle to love them
I know this neighbor, she is a nice person, and is probably being used like every other nice person in the world is used by narcs
- so yes mommy is working on smear campaign even with granddaughter


you do not do baby shower that is for friends to do not family
you do set spending limit, she will guilt you into anything she can get out of you
you buy what you want to buy for baby, not what she manipulates you into doing

FYI - having another child
I have seen this in my extended family
child reaches a certain age (10-12yo) mommy is no longer idolized, narc needs another child
child keeps mommy at home
mommy cant take care of home or anything besides baby, not capable of anything more than self focus

ok that was far more of a ramble than I intended

I want to encourage you take care of yourself first
this will be a tough road
keep close with your support folks

Blessings and gentle thoughts coming your way


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freedomspeace

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Re: A Covert Narcissist DIL
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2017, 10:59:04 PM »
Mrs Ghostly - oops - looks like my entire post was lost

EXACTLY - So it won't matter what you do or say or don't do or don't say it won't be right or good enough or generous enough                                         
                   because as the Mothers you are I are the biggest threat and prime target and need to be banished.

 I am wondering if your son has any friends left even?
 - my son is in his last year in college and is doing an internship he has a few relationships there but none outside of work

my daughter in law called me selfish
that was one of my light bulb moments
my meyers briggs personality type is INFJ - generous and selfless to my own detriment


stating that I am untrustworth!!!
yep I saw that one right away she was talking about herself

I do NOT want to be biting back at her so  I politely excused myself.
- I do the same thing, bow out, there is nothing I can say that will make any difference
 - highly recommend GREY ROCK, it really works, I am of no value, I do not even feed a conversation

PD's are at war in there minds constantly, they do not let up

Females seem to be the major targets for my own DIL.  YOUR DIL has flashed her breasts also?? Did I understand that correctly?  UGH!!!  ya...they can play  the seductive siren to all the men around....

- YEP - additionally, my DH gets so ticked, they come to our house knowing they are going right back home, she has them handing out to the point of falling out
I still have a 21yo son at home
my husbands says its like having his daughter walking around inappropriately dressed

The very saddest part of your situation to me is the cut off from your granddaughter. Now only DIL supervised visits with her are permitted?

--- I should add it really is no different than what has been going on for the last 2+ years
we have done supervised park visits, with this we come and go and interact with out much hoovering
now i am being told visit in lil 2 bedroom apt, no son around,
I am project grandma, I am not big into gifting, I put money into projects and time
I have not allowed myself to be alone with her for the last 3 years
my husband is always with me
she gets snarky and demeaning but she doesnt go off on me when my husband is around
just goes to prove they do know what they are doing

this has been a blessing in disguise
My extended family - sisters, 1 BIL, mother, uncle, grandmother have  always been draining, mean, slanderous, you name it
my DIL come into town and the Cr*p flies out of control
they all end up tattling on themselves
I call them on the carpet and went NC
the last 2 years have been wonderful
except I can not give up my Son or Granddaughter

thank you for your understanding and support
I dont post my garbage here FEAR of being labeled B*tch MIL
and even on this posting I am criptic and not full disclosure
my DIL has stalked me on the internet - thats a whole nother story

good thoughts, blessings and good energy your way

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Eggshell Walker

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Re: A Covert Narcissist DIL
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2017, 12:03:01 AM »
freedomspeace,

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate input from others going through similar, if not exact situations as myself.

this ticket incident is so typical
BUT to be sure you will never be her first choice for anything

lesson learned here
- you do not offer to include her (them) in the future
your response "i would not want you to feel like you were our second choice"


I have learned my lesson - now.  A few months ago, my DH and I purchased round trip flights for our entire family to a popular vacation destination. We all agreed on the dates etc. A few days prior to leaving, DIL bails and refuses to let our DS  travel with the rest of the family.  The airlines would not refund their tickets - we were out over $900. 

I collect responses in my journal
I'm not good at this quick tart sharp tongue and cheek stuff


I like this idea. I am not one that has a sharp tongue so coming up with quick, poignant statements is tough. I will start to write down some responses.

And yes, I have been asked by DS to at least 'act' concerned about DIL's health etc.  She thrives on being the center of attention. Whatever!

I never dreamed DS would marry someone like this. Not looking forward to the added stress with a grandchild. sigh.
** Don't say you miss me when you're the reason I'm gone. **

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Mrs.Ghosty

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Re: A Covert Narcissist DIL
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2017, 09:46:20 PM »
Dear EW and Freedomspeace, I feel a bit of a whiner here as your DIL's sound so much more overt than my own. I have more of what they call the shy/covert variety....not QUITE so openly hostile as your DILS, though we see this as well. The quieter  princess/victim kind.....with much of her disdain and need to demean others expressed in body language, eye rolling, odd little over-dramatized sighs of disgust, yawns of boredom.  At a party will sit in a corner alone (IF she allows son to leave her side)  looking very obviously disdainful, disinterested  and  unapproachable, extends herself to no one  and then acts insulted and uppity...princessy/victim...  because people she does not know did not come to talk to her.     ...that sort of thing.... 

   My question to you both....with sons who are enabling their  spouse's PD behaviors/attitudes/distorted perceptions ....making excuses etc.  do you have trouble dealing with your anger towards your sons as I do?  I just find my son's blindness to all the destructiveness almost as intolerable as  DIL's own behaviors.  Any suggestions for ways to let go of this?  I feel short on compassion perhaps because I have lived with too much of this PD problem my whole life with other family members.   

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freedomspeace

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Re: A Covert Narcissist DIL
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2017, 11:10:20 PM »
Dear EW and Freedomspeace, I feel a bit of a whiner here as your DIL's sound so much more overt than my own. I have more of what they call the shy/covert variety....not QUITE so openly hostile as your DILS, though we see this as well. The quieter  princess/victim kind.....with much of her disdain and need to demean others expressed in body language, eye rolling, odd little over-dramatized sighs of disgust, yawns of boredom.  At a party will sit in a corner alone (IF she allows son to leave her side)  looking very obviously disdainful, disinterested  and  unapproachable, extends herself to no one  and then acts insulted and uppity...princessy/victim...  because people she does not know did not come to talk to her.     ...that sort of thing.... 

   My question to you both....with sons who are enabling their  spouse's PD behaviors/attitudes/distorted perceptions ....making excuses etc.  do you have trouble dealing with your anger towards your sons as I do?  I just find my son's blindness to all the destructiveness almost as intolerable as  DIL's own behaviors.  Any suggestions for ways to let go of this?  I feel short on compassion perhaps because I have lived with too much of this PD problem my whole life with other family members.

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Mrs Ghostly

I shared the extroverted incidents we have lived through
your first paragraph  described my DIL to a T
I felt as tho I wrote what you shared

AS for my son
I vacillate between anger, hurt, disappointment, disgust, being ashamed of who he has become
yes I am short on compassion also
I stuggle with and I need to remember that he is slowly dying in that situation, he is not loved, not being nurtured
he will collapse from all of this at some point
we are not supposed to acceptance and let go, these are not choices we have as mothers
we can yield and surrender to this is what it is (per my counselor) and live mindfully, take care of ourselves

it is his choice
to allow his wife to abuse his daughter - we can do NOTHING about this
to allow himself to be insulted, abused
my son is 6'2 250lb, 11 year medically retired army sgt, 3 tours - a really tough nut
and he puts up with 5'4" non-supportive, abusive wife, she doesnt work outside the house, and does not drive, does not take care of the home,

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Eggshell Walker

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Re: A Covert Narcissist DIL
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2017, 11:52:31 PM »
Mrs. G,

To answer your question regarding my enabling son -- I don't get angry at his enabling and excuse making. It's just very disheartening to see him 'cave' this way. He's a strong, independent man that is clearly afraid of upsetting his wife, for some unknown reason(s). I told him the other day that I feel sorry for him that he is made to feel like he can't do anything or go anywhere without her stuck to his side. She is very much the princess in her FOO - not in ours though! She loves drama and everything is always about her. Very self-centered. It's only been a few months ago that I started coming Out of the FOG of my own childhood being raised by an uNPDm and enabling father. My DIL has many of the NPD characteristics as does my uNPDm so my tolerance level is pretty low for any NPD behavior.

I try to speak with my son during the week when he's at work and is able to speak freely and openly. As I see it - if I want to continue to have any relationship with my son, I am going to have to dance to my DIL's tune. It's unfortunate, and certainly not what I imagined for his married life. My son and I have always had a very close relationship and I know DIL feels threatened by that. I told DIL early on that she and I are playing on the same team, just different positions. I can only hope she recalls that phrase often.  ;)

I often remind myself that this woman was my son's choice and even though he was warned by friends and family about her, he went ahead with the wedding and thus he needs to live with his choice(s)....good and bad. What really makes me sad is to see the liveliness and happiness sucked out of him while DIL is around. He is a whole different person in her presence.

I guess my best advice is to remain supportive of your son and be there to pick up the pieces when they fall....





** Don't say you miss me when you're the reason I'm gone. **