Something clicked in my head today. NO MORE ABUSE!

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Frothed out

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Re: Something clicked in my head today. NO MORE ABUSE!
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2017, 09:32:09 AM »
"I just have this sliver of hope that she could see the problem for what it is, my kids don't get to choose their mom.....

You also need to let that go. Your main and full responsibility, now that you have children, is to the kids (more than to your spouse) and is to raise them in a way/environment that developes them into being responsible (for themselves and others and not a drain on society), self-supporting, non-PD adults and hopefully end this potential PD cycle (which may continue by keeping them in this current abusive environment).  If that means removing them from verbal and physical abuse (of you and/or them), by ending the marriage and restricting/eliminating their contact with their PD mom, to achieve those goals, do it immediately.

So I did write a good letter (even though I had plenty of warnings not to) It was well written, explaining my part in accepting the abuse for a long time, re-inforcing her negative behaviour.  It then showed how she is beginning to do/show this to the children.  It also explained how she has many good traits.  It ended with knowing her upbringing being abusive, and me not wanting the cycle to continue for generations.

Her immediate response was "There is nothing tangible in this letter." She asked if I wanted to re-write it so the therapist had something to work with.  I said no, that is the letter. She did bring it with her to the councilor though, and that night came home and bitterly said "Thanks for the letter"  then disappeared to bed. I assume the therapist has been able to at least read my letter, and prompted my ucovertNPDw to thank me.  It reminded me of how a child says sorry with a frown when they are forced into it.

Now I have hopes that the therapist can reach her.  Not for me, but for my kids.  I am focused now on what's best for them. 



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kazzak

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Re: Something clicked in my head today. NO MORE ABUSE!
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2017, 10:55:44 AM »
Did you mention in the letter that your wife physically abused you in front of the children so that the counselor is clear about the domestic violence in your home?

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SonofThunder

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Re: Something clicked in my head today. NO MORE ABUSE!
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2017, 11:16:07 AM »
"I just have this sliver of hope that she could see the problem for what it is, my kids don't get to choose their mom.....

You also need to let that go. Your main and full responsibility, now that you have children, is to the kids (more than to your spouse) and is to raise them in a way/environment that developes them into being responsible (for themselves and others and not a drain on society), self-supporting, non-PD adults and hopefully end this potential PD cycle (which may continue by keeping them in this current abusive environment).  If that means removing them from verbal and physical abuse (of you and/or them), by ending the marriage and restricting/eliminating their contact with their PD mom, to achieve those goals, do it immediately.

So I did write a good letter (even though I had plenty of warnings not to) It was well written, explaining my part in accepting the abuse for a long time, re-inforcing her negative behaviour.  It then showed how she is beginning to do/show this to the children.  It also explained how she has many good traits.  It ended with knowing her upbringing being abusive, and me not wanting the cycle to continue for generations.

Her immediate response was "There is nothing tangible in this letter." She asked if I wanted to re-write it so the therapist had something to work with.  I said no, that is the letter. She did bring it with her to the councilor though, and that night came home and bitterly said "Thanks for the letter"  then disappeared to bed. I assume the therapist has been able to at least read my letter, and prompted my ucovertNPDw to thank me.  It reminded me of how a child says sorry with a frown when they are forced into it.

Now I have hopes that the therapist can reach her.  Not for me, but for my kids.  I am focused now on what's best for them.

I could imagine that the same response you recieved from your PDw would be the exact response my PDw would deliver if i gave her a letter like that. My PDw doesnt/nor wont see a therapist as she feels I am her problem and therefore she would assume im the one who needs a T to fix me. 

So im assuming your PDw took your letter into the T to show the T how ridiculous she thinks you are for conjuring up all this BS about her and abuse she gives you and the kids.  I also assume that the T accepted the letter into the counseling records but did not condemn your accusations, but rather used it simply as added input.   Therefore, im also assuming that your PDw is now angry that the T didnt condemn you as she expected and therefore the sarcastic and cloaked  'thanks' (for being a pain in my ass) ' you received upon her return.

I cannot imagine my  PDw EVER following a T's instructions to thank me for a letter that details everything wrong with her, so therefore my opinion that your PDw's 'thank you' was really a cloaked middle finger. 

If it was my PDw, this would all be followed by a lengthy silent treatment, broken only by her attempts to yell insults at me, mumble loud enough for me to hear her disgust in having to be married to me, and retreating back into her hole for more silent treatment and continuing her 'journal of wrongdoing' of her husband, that she mentions on occasion, in a 'military parade' of assets she could use against me in a legal proceeding. 

It would be a modern-day miracle imho with my experience with my PDw, if your letter had a positive effect on your PDw.  It is always my opinion, for myself and others to follow this code of conduct I've had for myself for the last 30 years;

"Plan for the very worst.  Plan also (and hope and pray), for the very best.  But, expect that in reality, things will happen somewhere between the two".

With that kind of thorough planning, you will have a plan/be prepred for anything.  With regard to your current situation, the application of that code of conduct would be to have a well thought-through plan for you and the kids to leave on a dime and all the things/places lined up to make that quick decision and make it easy.  On the opposite (best) side, you are hoping and praying your current attempts at improving your sutuation (talk and letters) will have some traction, although in my (upcoming) 26 years (next week anniversary) of marriage to my uPDw, i would be a betting man on the odds of reality falling somewhere on the very lower half of the span of that worst-to-best.   Again, in your specific case, with the very FIRST physical abuse, she would have already been choking down the dust of me and the kids rolling off into the horizon.

Not trying to be a pessimist, but encourage you to be a realist.  Cheers.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 11:23:16 AM by SonofThunder »
Proverbs 17:1
A meal of bread and water in peace is better than a banquet spiced with quarrels.

2 Timothy 1:7
For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline.

Proverbs 29:11
A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back.

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kazzak

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Re: Something clicked in my head today. NO MORE ABUSE!
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2017, 11:44:27 AM »
I could imagine that the same response you recieved from your PDw would be the exact response my PDw would deliver if i gave her a letter like that.

I can't even imagine my ex in therapy, let alone providing a letter from me to her therapist. My imagination goes something like this ... the letter was never provided in therapy, and will be used in court against me to gain control over the children. It seems there is a lot of trust in a PD in this thread. My ex would use it against me, no doubt. Not to help improve our relationship. The only one taking responsibility in this case is the nonPD. And they are taking responsibility for their role in the abuse.

I'm trying to intervene for my son also. Trying to stop multiple generations of abuse. I don't do it by allowing the abuse to continue. I do it by showing my son differently. The damage is already done otherwise. My experiences are professionals need to be on board to intervene, ones that don't allow abuse to continue in front of children. Frothed out and the PD are ok with abuse in front of children. That's not ok.

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SonofThunder

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Re: Something clicked in my head today. NO MORE ABUSE!
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2017, 03:06:07 AM »
My experiences are professionals need to be on board to intervene, ones that don't allow abuse to continue in front of children. Frothed out and the PD are ok with abuse in front of children. That's not ok.
:yeahthat:
Proverbs 17:1
A meal of bread and water in peace is better than a banquet spiced with quarrels.

2 Timothy 1:7
For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline.

Proverbs 29:11
A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back.

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Frothed out

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Re: Something clicked in my head today. NO MORE ABUSE!
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2017, 09:44:16 AM »
Did you mention in the letter that your wife physically abused you in front of the children so that the counselor is clear about the domestic violence in your home?

My councilor, and I assume hers also, read this:

 " I have been hit and shoved by you in front of the children when you donít like the response to the decisions you asked me to make. "

My councilor said that she was close to calling child services, and if it had been the reverse (me hitting/shoving her) she would have already called them. She then explained that if my uNPDw was 'ok' with shoving me, what will it take for her to be 'ok' with shoving them? I was quite ignorant of this until that point. I was never interested in defending myself, but now I understand I have to do it, for the kids.  They need to see me drawing the line, so they know where the line is.

So now I am in a spot where she may(small chance) improve and deal with her own inner problems now that she has a councilor with the full story(from my letter). I am in a spot where I will no longer take any of this abuse(title of this thread).  My interests are focused on improving me(to improve my kid's chances through whatever is coming), and helping the kids cope with the daily grind until some significant event happens.

For me everything is getting better.  The fog is lifting bit by bit.  My marriage may not survive this, but I have to give it a shot.  I am so glad to have all the feedback here and tools in the toolbox, otherwise I would be stumbling around with my lizard brain at the controls.



Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most.

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SonofThunder

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Re: Something clicked in my head today. NO MORE ABUSE!
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2017, 09:59:44 AM »

 a: " I have been hit and shoved by you in front of the children when you donít like the response to the decisions you asked me to make. "

b: She then explained that if my uNPDw was 'ok' with shoving me, what will it take for her to be 'ok' with shoving them?
[/quote]

A-The very first time my spouse ever got physical...I'm out.
B-AMEN.  I'm out.

Frothed, my personal opinion is that your kids have ALREADY witnessed physical abuse and they need to learn 100% that it is unacceptable and that YOU are their protector of them and of yourself.  Imho, your comments about your wife getting better are pointless.  Your children are in a potentially physically harmful situation to them or even to YOU and YOU are their protector.  The children's mental and physical well being is most important and should guide (have already guided) your decision. 
Proverbs 17:1
A meal of bread and water in peace is better than a banquet spiced with quarrels.

2 Timothy 1:7
For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline.

Proverbs 29:11
A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back.

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kazzak

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Re: Something clicked in my head today. NO MORE ABUSE!
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2017, 10:08:04 AM »
My view is there is gender bias, in particular with the counselor not reporting, and an inability to put the child's needs first.

These are real issues if you choose to address the physical abuse in front of the children. Real big issues that make it almost impossible to get support to put an end to it. It's not easy to stop abuse. Tolerating it only makes it harder down the road and undermines your position that abuse is not ok. Based on my experiences, it really sucks when you try to stop it ... and find that you have no support and have to do it on your own. Good luck with that. It's an uphill battle, coming from the perspective of a dad who left an abusive relationship. And yes, my son was abused. It wasn't just me. The children in this thread are being neglected already, I'd be surprised if they aren't being abused also... or will be someday. I don't expect they'll know how to respond appropriately. It's normal in this case. Minimized, normalized. All the wrong messages to a precious young child.

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Frothed out

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Re: Something clicked in my head today. NO MORE ABUSE!
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2017, 10:21:50 AM »

 a: " I have been hit and shoved by you in front of the children when you donít like the response to the decisions you asked me to make. "

b: She then explained that if my uNPDw was 'ok' with shoving me, what will it take for her to be 'ok' with shoving them?


A-The very first time my spouse ever got physical...I'm out.
B-AMEN.  I'm out.

Frothed, my personal opinion is that your kids have ALREADY witnessed physical abuse and they need to learn 100% that it is unacceptable and that YOU are their protector of them and of yourself.  Imho, your comments about your wife getting better are pointless.  Your children are in a potentially physically harmful situation to them or even to YOU and YOU are their protector.  The children's mental and physical well being is most important and should guide (have already guided) your decision.

I agree Sonofthunder, but I can't push the toothpaste back in the tube. Had I been Out of the FOG I would have reacted more appropriately. I will not make that mistake again. I'm not interested in calling the police right now and saying that several weeks ago my wife pushed me.  I don't have faith in the way I would be perceived in half-remembering what happened. I need to know that I have exhausted all possibility of uNPDw getting help.  She knows I am not putting up with it now, so the ball is in her court.

I appreciate the insight from yourself and others here, as I have not been through this before, but I still must play it out.  I need to go through some of the steps, not just fast forward to the end, assuming I know everything.  If I knew everything, I wouldn't have gotten this far in a relationship with a PD.

I've had to go from 'it's all my fault', to 'it's not ALL my fault'  to 'this might be her problem' to 'she is no longer allowed to do this anymore'.  Sounds quick in one sentence, but it has taken me months to get to this point.

Frothed out.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 10:33:32 AM by Frothed out »
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kazzak

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Re: Something clicked in my head today. NO MORE ABUSE!
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2017, 10:51:51 AM »
The cops aren't going to stop the abuse. No one else can, besides you.

You've made it clear that you are putting up with the abuse. You've made it clear your ex is allowed to physically abuse you. It is your fault. No one else is responsible but you.

Words may sound good, but when they are not backed by corresponding action then they are meaningless. Those kids are watching it all, and learning.

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Frothed out

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Re: Something clicked in my head today. NO MORE ABUSE!
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2017, 11:06:04 AM »
The cops aren't going to stop the abuse. No one else can, besides you.

You've made it clear that you are putting up with the abuse. You've made it clear your ex is allowed to physically abuse you. It is your fault. No one else is responsible but you.

Words may sound good, but when they are not backed by corresponding action then they are meaningless. Those kids are watching it all, and learning.

The title of this post is clear enough, my actions will back this.  Before this original post yes I was putting up with it. Yes I was not setting boundaries.  Now I am.  I have the guidance of a councilor and direction from posters here. There will be no more abuse. Now lets see what happens.

Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most.

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kazzak

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Re: Something clicked in my head today. NO MORE ABUSE!
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2017, 11:09:36 AM »
Based on my experiences, you can't change it. That means there will be more abuse and it hasn't stopped. I wish you (and your kids) the best, that's my only intention. Before I sign off, here is another thing I learned the hard way. Abuse always escalates, it doesn't deescalate. That's the scary part.

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carrots

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Re: Something clicked in my head today. NO MORE ABUSE!
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2017, 11:52:29 AM »

...but I still must play it out.  I need to go through some of the steps, not just fast forward to the end, assuming I know everything.  If I knew everything, I wouldn't have gotten this far in a relationship with a PD.

I've had to go from 'it's all my fault', to 'it's not ALL my fault'  to 'this might be her problem' to 'she is no longer allowed to do this anymore'.  Sounds quick in one sentence, but it has taken me months to get to this point.

Just want to validate the progress you've been making. You're right, going from believing something is all your own fault to deciding to not tolerate it any more with all the necessary steps in between takes time. Even if you know it has to be done because you want to protect your children. At least for me making this kind of progress has taken a lot of time. Years in fact! I don't have children so it's just adult me suffering with my FOO. Or if I had a partner, I'd be playing it out there too. 

So I wonder with other posters on here seemingly not understanding or not applauding you at least for the realizations, could it be that 'normal' psychologically healthy people would get this very quickly and not take months? I'm not suggesting that you are PD, don't worry. This process you mention is something we typically go through and can relate to over at Out of the Storm, for people with CPTSD. If I try to push steps and progress that I'm not emotionally ready for, it usually all backfires. So I have to take my time. So the question is: Could there be something in your past which makes you liable to put up with this type of behaviour? Maybe your counsellor can help you shed some light on that? Though staying in the here and now so that you can get yourself and your kids out is probably better than delving into the past. A good counsellor can help you balance that too.

I do agree with other posters here that it's important that your children learn different strategies for dealing with conflict and certainly learn that abuse is not acceptable. It's a lot harder to re-learn as an adult. There was low-level physical abuse in the family I grew up in and an awful lot of emotional/verbal, mostly my M towards my F and towards us kids. We kids are all a bit scarred one way and another. I seem to be the worst off with full-blown CPTSD but one sib has 'anger issues', which he took out on me as we were growing up and which he seems to be passing onto the next generation (though I hope I misunderstood his remark) and the other isn't good at setting limits towards our M, prefers to enable her and push me about. F hardly ever protected us from M. There was the odd occasion, that I even can remember, but mostly he retreated into his depression and couldn't be bothered.

So having grown up in that kind of situation I'd say, please try your best to get your children out of it before more damage is done. But also I applaud you for making the progress you are making. I agree with others on here that it's unlikely that an abuser will 'see the light of day' and stop abusing. Even if your w saw a need to change her behaviour, it would probably take a fair bit of practice to be able to do so. Possibly years. It's unfortunately not uncommon to need years to heal from CPTSD and BPD, and that's with realizing there's a problem and wanting to get help!  I'm presuming it's similar with NPD.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 11:59:19 AM by carrots »

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Frothed out

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Re: Something clicked in my head today. NO MORE ABUSE!
« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2017, 01:08:06 PM »

...but I still must play it out.  I need to go through some of the steps, not just fast forward to the end, assuming I know everything.  If I knew everything, I wouldn't have gotten this far in a relationship with a PD.

I've had to go from 'it's all my fault', to 'it's not ALL my fault'  to 'this might be her problem' to 'she is no longer allowed to do this anymore'.  Sounds quick in one sentence, but it has taken me months to get to this point.

Just want to validate the progress you've been making. You're right, going from believing something is all your own fault to deciding to not tolerate it any more with all the necessary steps in between takes time. Even if you know it has to be done because you want to protect your children. At least for me making this kind of progress has taken a lot of time. Years in fact! I don't have children so it's just adult me suffering with my FOO. Or if I had a partner, I'd be playing it out there too. 

So I wonder with other posters on here seemingly not understanding or not applauding you at least for the realizations, could it be that 'normal' psychologically healthy people would get this very quickly and not take months? I'm not suggesting that you are PD, don't worry. This process you mention is something we typically go through and can relate to over at Out of the Storm, for people with CPTSD. If I try to push steps and progress that I'm not emotionally ready for, it usually all backfires. So I have to take my time. So the question is: Could there be something in your past which makes you liable to put up with this type of behaviour? Maybe your counsellor can help you shed some light on that? Though staying in the here and now so that you can get yourself and your kids out is probably better than delving into the past. A good counsellor can help you balance that too.

I do agree with other posters here that it's important that your children learn different strategies for dealing with conflict and certainly learn that abuse is not acceptable. It's a lot harder to re-learn as an adult. There was low-level physical abuse in the family I grew up in and an awful lot of emotional/verbal, mostly my M towards my F and towards us kids. We kids are all a bit scarred one way and another. I seem to be the worst off with full-blown CPTSD but one sib has 'anger issues', which he took out on me as we were growing up and which he seems to be passing onto the next generation (though I hope I misunderstood his remark) and the other isn't good at setting limits towards our M, prefers to enable her and push me about. F hardly ever protected us from M. There was the odd occasion, that I even can remember, but mostly he retreated into his depression and couldn't be bothered.

So having grown up in that kind of situation I'd say, please try your best to get your children out of it before more damage is done. But also I applaud you for making the progress you are making. I agree with others on here that it's unlikely that an abuser will 'see the light of day' and stop abusing. Even if your w saw a need to change her behaviour, it would probably take a fair bit of practice to be able to do so. Possibly years. It's unfortunately not uncommon to need years to heal from CPTSD and BPD, and that's with realizing there's a problem and wanting to get help!  I'm presuming it's similar with NPD.

Thanks for the kind words carrot.  There is no way I could have gotten this far deep without some issues of my own.  The councilor shocked me again with the idea that getting a strap on the hand was abuse. I am likely the mildest case of CPTSD, so I partially 'fit' the role of the abused.  I have been stepping in from the beginning to take the verbal abuse rather than watch it happen to the kids.  At the time I must have figured that redirecting the abuse toward me was good enough.  As the fog keeps lifting for me and I recognize things for what hey actually are, I need to stop the world from spinning before I make a plunge. Having a ucovertNPDw means I deal with all this myself, nobody to lean on, nobody to understand. I rely on the advice from my councilor, and the experience here to help me find the horizon again. Regular folks can't seem to see into the same fog I can't see out of.

Thanks again.
Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most.

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Frothed out

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Re: Something clicked in my head today. NO MORE ABUSE!
« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2017, 03:07:31 PM »

 The councilor shocked me again with the idea that getting a strap on the hand was abuse.

It was when she asked me if I would do this to my kids......  No of course not, that's when I made a connection that my dad conditioned me to take abuse. I thought it was a normal thing.  There used to be a paddle at the school, so why not the belt at home.  I only now understand my role in 'accepting' the abuse.  This is another light bulb moment for me.  NO MORE ABUSE!

 
Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most.

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carrots

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Re: Something clicked in my head today. NO MORE ABUSE!
« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2017, 04:18:39 PM »
Hey, you're doing well! Good realization: NO MORE ABUSE! I've had to learn to see that lots of what I endured growing up was not acceptable in order to be able to change my own behaviour now, and in order to have realizations, like "that's why I put up with xyz". You seem well on the way. Keep it up. Things do get better.

FWIW your remark "I am likely the mildest case of CPTSD, so I partially 'fit' the role of the abused."  is a common belief among people with CPTSD. People join OOTS writing "I'm sure I didn't have it as bad as the rest of you" and in therapy groups I've been in it's common for people to ask about their own past "Was it really that bad?" Or: "That wasn't really abuse, was it?" Me too, I've asked all those questions and had a lot of self-doubt. I still do in fact. Growing up, we are conditioned to believe that it was either "nothing" or we were at fault or we were too sensitive or all of it combined. I'm on OOTS more than here because I need the validation and support I get there for the seemingly small steps I take to progress.

It saddens me to read "I must have figured that redirecting the abuse toward me was good enough.", saddens me for you. You were trying to protect your kids as best you could. As a kid I'd have sure liked it if F or M had taken it on instead of things that had nothing to do with me (e.g. M being angry at F or the ILs or B being angry at M) being dumped on me. Even if it hadn't taught me good ways of dealing with conflict, at least it would have spared me emotional and physical pain and fear.

Anyway as I said, you're working on it, you're making progress, and I wish you all the best with that.




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kazzak

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Re: Something clicked in my head today. NO MORE ABUSE!
« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2017, 04:33:45 PM »
Sometimes when there is domestic violence, including physical abuse and child neglect, then there is not time to learn about it and figure it all out first. Someone told me I didn't have that luxury. They told me I had to do it immediately, and I could learn about it later. That was best, for my child, and put their needs first.

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Frothed out

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Re: Something clicked in my head today. NO MORE ABUSE!
« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2017, 09:47:29 AM »
Last night she said that she would be going to see the therapist today.  She asked what my plans are.  I asked what did she mean by 'plans'?  She said that i wrote the letter(mentioned earlier in this post) so i must have a plan.  I said that the letter was clear enough and I didn't have a plan.  After considering it for the rest of the evening, I typed up a short paper stating my intentions:

My intentions are self-improvement and setting healthy boundaries.  The most important boundary is I will no longer accept violence or aggression toward myself or our kids from anyone anymore.


Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most.

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Frothed out

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Re: Something clicked in my head today. NO MORE ABUSE!
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2017, 09:50:04 AM »
Since I gave her this note, I have been filled with a great feeling.  I dunno if it's just confidence, or releasing something I have been holding on to for too long, but I feel really good about things this morning.  The paths are set.  Neither path will be back to the past suffering.

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carrots

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Re: Something clicked in my head today. NO MORE ABUSE!
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2017, 08:47:21 PM »
Good going!  :thumbup: I have no idea how things will progress from now, i.e. what your wife is going to do with the boundary you are setting. But you have set it. That's the most important bit.