LC process

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4mya

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LC process
« on: August 06, 2017, 10:39:53 AM »
I am now in the process of finding the amount of contact needed to let go, deal with my FLEAs in growing up in foo and raise my daughter differently. I am wanting suggestions on how you went LC with foo (after knowing what you were dealing-PD with in foo).

Did you do an email/or direct conversation to mom/foo explaining your LC boundaries...
OR did you just set boundaries each time you talked; without a firm explanation of LC...


I really want to be considerate and set the boundaries that are necessary. I do not want to cause drama but I also want to make sure I am clear. I have been the lost/invisible child and the SG during certain periods and also used  as the GC (had no idea it was happening just finally was getting attention and those periods were very short lived because I lost myself so quickly).

I have disappeared at times from foo but not in the way that I am now. Any personal experience of how you told them of LC helps. Some family members will respect my boundaries...(but it is difficult I have to stay very focused/repeat boundaries at every interaction).   

I know there is a lot of experience on this forum- thankful to be here. I am reading so many posts - it blows me away and confirms what I was waiting to see (but probably not ready) for a LONG time.

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Amadahy

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Re: LC process
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2017, 11:03:26 AM »
Hi 4mya!

I think it depends on *your* preferences.  I mean, in my case, I got a new job about the same time I went LC, so now I am "busy."  N mom will sometimes snark about me being a "career woman," which she knows I hate, but I have let that be the explanation. My other alternative was to talk to her about boundaries, etc and be dragged into circular conversations, gas lighted, raged against, hovered and any of the other N tricks.  Frankly, for me, it's easier to let work be the excuse and it saves face with mom who seems to need to tell the world how "close" she is to her daughter, but that darn job ....

Let me say, too, that after growing up with crazy making, I prefer honesty, so I struggled with this approach.  However, I know if I were honest with N mom, it would not work for the reasons listed above.  I don't like not being forthright, but in this case, it is for the higher cause of survival. 

Best wishes whatever you decide!

:hug: 



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daughter

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Re: LC process
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2017, 02:05:50 PM »
In regards to boundaries, "lead by example", that is politely enforce your boundaries, without JADE, without FOG, and consistently respect those boundaries you've set, by calmly excusing yourself from interactions were boundaries are violated, when bad behaviors are occurring or likely to soon occur.  Announcing your Less Contact decision, stating that you're implementing new boundaries (rather than just quietly respecting them during your interactions with your parents), is often like "waving a red flag in front of a charging bull", because we're dealing with the fundamental problem that our pd-disordered parent feels entitled to, and often actually states their self-serving entitlement: "I'm your parent; I can say and do whatever I want and you just need to take it!".  An unreasonable difficult parent doesn't suddenly change upon notice of their adult-child's new boundaries, or their decision to reduce contact; that parent is likely to be "super-upset", likely to be angry that any limits are now intentionally placed upon their behavior, their expectations and demands.  Instead, use boundaries and LC as tools for you to manage your interactions with your parents, to mitigate problems by reducing your direct participation in those problems, whether as target, or as enabler, or as mere audience.

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illogical

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Re: LC process
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2017, 03:13:19 PM »
In regards to boundaries, "lead by example", that is politely enforce your boundaries, without JADE, without FOG, and consistently respect those boundaries you've set, by calmly excusing yourself from interactions were boundaries are violated, when bad behaviors are occurring or likely to soon occur.  Announcing your Less Contact decision, stating that you're implementing new boundaries (rather than just quietly respecting them during your interactions with your parents), is often like "waving a red flag in front of a charging bull", because we're dealing with the fundamental problem that our pd-disordered parent feels entitled to, and often actually states their self-serving entitlement: "I'm your parent; I can say and do whatever I want and you just need to take it!". An unreasonable difficult parent doesn't suddenly change upon notice of their adult-child's new boundaries, or their decision to reduce contact; that parent is likely to be "super-upset", likely to be angry that any limits are now intentionally placed upon their behavior, their expectations and demands.  Instead, use boundaries and LC as tools for you to manage your interactions with your parents, to mitigate problems by reducing your direct participation in those problems, whether as target, or as enabler, or as mere audience.

 :yeahthat:  Absolutely that!

It has been my experience that you don't want to lay out in any detail what you are going to do and why you are going to do it.  Any criticism will be met with denial, gaslighting, raging, ST and other behavior aimed at making the "problem" you have brought to light (due to your need for boundaries) all about you and never about them. 

If your parents weren't disordered, you might be able to reason with them, to effectively communicate why their behavior was an issue with you.  But they are disordered, and they are going to take any boundary setting as a personal affront and argue back with you, most likely in circular fashion.

You don't have really good options here.  If you tell them even minimally why you are doing what you are doing, they won't hear you and will over-generalize your comments or even gaslight you.  "4mya says she doesn't want to get together on Sundays anymore.  We think she has a drug problem."   If you don't tell them why, they might say "We don't know why 4mya is behaving the way she's behaving.  She's acting so rude to us." 

So personally, I would take "rude" over the smear campaign or gaslight attempt.  Even if they don't make stuff up about you, they might say something like "Tell us what we can do to make things right with you."  This is nothing but a hoover to get you to give them more information they can twist and spin and make the problem all about you. 

My vote is the less said the better.  If and when they notice you are grey rock or MC, you make up an excuse like you are busy or are working on a project.  Don't waste your time trying to honestly and truthfully communicate.  When you are dealing with PDs, your best bet is to set your boundary and follow through with your consequences for them not respecting your boundary.  In other words, take action.  They will likely ignore or put a spin on talk, but there's little they can do when you take action.

"Applying logic to potentially illogical behaviour is to construct a house on shifting foundations.  The structure will inevitably collapse."

__Stewart Stafford

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Is This Normal

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Re: LC process
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2017, 04:19:43 PM »
Agree with what everyone else said.

In my case, my parents are from the "children initiate contact" school, so they don't typically call me, I call them. If I don't call them, we don't talk.

My unBPDm does text my brother. They have the same brand of devices. I have a totally different brand that is not compatible with her device, so she cannot text me. Plus, my brother stays in more contact with my parents, so he is now my mother's confidante.

I do get blowback and resentful remarks from time to time about my being more distant. But last I checked, the phone works both ways. If they want to talk more frequently, they can call.

Also, I don't do Christmas and Thanksgiving every year with them. Usually it's one or the other. I have work excuses to thank for that. I don't think my brother has ever missed a winter holiday with them. That's his choice.

-ITN-

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Spring Butterfly

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Re: LC process
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2017, 04:22:32 PM »
For me level of contact and boundaries were two separate things.

Level of contact - was enmeshed daily shopping and lunch excursions and little by little I got busy. Missed a lunch here. Couldn't make shopping now and then. Little by little dialed back contact because in all honesty I was getting busy thanks to shifting focus away from updm being the center if my uinverse. Tending to my own self care and mental welless took first place. After rediscovering interests and hobbies that had taken a back seat I was super busy.

Boundaries were spoken in the moment and as needed. Most amounted to standing up to the bullying and abuse. Other boundaries I just did without speaking such as limiting my visits or not responding to post visit communication - emails and texts that followed the rest of the day. Again. Busy.

Medium chill helped me manage my behavior and words to enforce boundaries and not JADE with the most emotionally detached way.

That's what worked for me. Hopefully you find something that works for you.
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illogical

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Re: LC process
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2017, 04:58:11 PM »
Spring Butterfly makes a good point about separating contact level and boundaries.

In my post, I was speaking of an overall game plan about deciding to cut back on contact-- that I wouldn't announce ahead of time.

But suppose you are being disrespected over the phone or in person, well in the moment, yes, I would say "If you continue to talk over me, I'm hanging up the phone" or "If you can't speak to me in a normal tone of voice, I'm ending this phone call". 

"Applying logic to potentially illogical behaviour is to construct a house on shifting foundations.  The structure will inevitably collapse."

__Stewart Stafford

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4mya

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Re: LC process
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2017, 06:27:01 PM »
thank you all so much.

I do not interact with my foo very much and have not for years but I did not know I was dealing with PD's/family system or the extent of the dysfunction until recently. I just ran for the hills emotionally/physically distanced myself due to knowing it was a toxic environment.

Since having my baby this year I am getting requests and I attempted increasing contact (and contacted my NPD brother for the first time in 3 years so they could "meet the baby".

All interactions made me realize I  want NC with brother and limited with uNPDM/others for now.

I started seeing M more than I wanted every one to two weeks or so for about 1-2 hours. Now I am needing to re-establish what I had prior to our baby being born which was once a month for around an hour give or take. I even started thinking she had changed and then went through hard realization that it is not only the same but worse as a few months passed by. I needed this experience though.

It is very helpful to have the info and experience and that it is so consistent from all. 
Notifying of  LC ect..will just create drama - ALOT OF DRAMA .  and the circular communication and "4mya- is the sick one" is not a new way of dealing with my low contact in the past. I am and have been seen as the dysfunctional crazy one for leaving for a long time.

 Maybe even my desire to define LC to them is coming from some place of still wanting/thinking they can understand and actually want what I need to be healthy. And I know this is not the case.

It is so hard to believe someone can really not love there child... as of lately I am having a lot of emotion I did not know I had around this being a new parent and experiencing so much love for my child.

Thanks again to all who responded.  :D

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illogical

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Re: LC process
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2017, 09:02:42 PM »
...Maybe even my desire to define LC to them is coming from some place of still wanting/thinking they can understand and actually want what I need to be healthy. And I know this is not the case.

It is so hard to believe someone can really not love there child... as of lately I am having a lot of emotion I did not know I had around this being a new parent and experiencing so much love for my child.

I think you have a good handle on your feelings and a good understanding of personality disorders.

That desire to define is normal, a wanting to relate to them on a truthful and honest level.  Unfortunately, it won't result in the desired outcome, as you have expressed.

Yes, it is hard to believe that someone cannot really love their child.  Many of us on OOTF have struggled mightily with that truth and it's a hard truth to swallow.  It must be especially hard for you, a new mother, filled with so much love for her child. 

What helped me understand this was getting educated on N.  They have no empathy for anyone-- doesn't matter if it's a casual acquaintance or their first born.  That's the way their brains are wired.  For me, though, knowing this answered so many questions about growing up in a N family-- why they did this and why they did that.  It really was like all the pieces of the puzzle fell into place, once I got to the place of understanding they were disordered.

I think you have a very good understanding of the family dynamic that's going on here.  I applaud you for taking steps to protect your new baby and yourself from the dysfunction.  Welcome to the forum!  :hug:

"Applying logic to potentially illogical behaviour is to construct a house on shifting foundations.  The structure will inevitably collapse."

__Stewart Stafford

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4mya

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Re: LC process
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2017, 10:03:57 PM »
Yes I am studying everything I can get my hands on right now.

The newest book I just received today is Malignant Self-love by Sam Vaknin.

I have read a lot of online material. Lots of Alice Miller books which really help me to look at what I have picked up from growing up in it.

I read Will I Ever Be Good Enough?: Healing the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers. This book was my first introduction/identifying I  had a PD parent and that I was not crazy.

Alice Miller books have been helpful as well but intense to read.

Any suggestions of material that have helped anyone I appreciate and am motivated to read/study.  :)