VLC with sibs - what about small nieces and nephews?

[carrots]

I've gone VLC with all the adults in FOO, which includes sibs and their spouses. Remaining in much form of contact would mean I'd end up JADEing of which I've done quite enough over the years. I reached my breaking point last year. However, my nieces and nephews - all under the age of 10 - are not the problem. Contact with them has never been huge - I live in a different country, but I did used to talk to them on the phone sometimes and of course send cards and little presents for birthdays etc.

One niece is also my god-daughter, me more in a 'special aunt' kind of way than really religious upbringing. Nevertheless I took on this duty and role and I do take it seriously. I don't want to just discard her. But last year at breaking point I decided that I'd put my own state of health in first place. i.e. I'm not putting up with her parents' treatment of me so as not to lose contact with her. Too bad her parents never considered that, but I'm sure as others have suggested on some thread here recently, such people think you'll never stand up for yourself and just keep dumping whatever all they dump on us.

I feel however very strongly that my niece and in fact my nephews are not their parents, they are people in their own right. Niece's F even sees it that way too, at least he said so when she was born, so here's the test if that's really true I think he's got more fleas than really PD but his W - I think PD. Anyway exceedingly nasty to me, and B is part of whole family dysfunction which treats me as SG. I didn't notice till "breaking point" that he treats me as SG too, because he'd never done it openly. But now I know. Conversely my little god-daughter was really sweet and caring at "breaking point". Since "breaking point" I've sent my god-daughter little letters and postcards as well as Xmas and birthday presents. Sometimes I'm included in email send-outs with photos of my niece. Probably as an acknowledgement of receipt of presents. Up till now I've sent a short thank-you email for the pics.

I feel very sad that I can't really do much in my role as godmother because I need to protect myself. I am godmother to a non-FOO child, it's not that I 'need' my god-daughter, but for all I know my sib and spouse are intimating I don't care about her. Which isn't true. But that impression would be heightened if I dropped contact altogether.
So far here I've read more the reversal of the situation: that you all are protecting your children from PDs. So I'm wondering if anybody has been in my situation and could post about that a bit.

[DJR]

My H and I are also VLC with his GCBro and NSIL. They also have a child that we no longer see because of that.

We have come to terms with no longer having a family relationship with their child. Because the child is little, we have the view that she is under the care of her parents, and so any contact we wish to have with her by necessity has to involve her parents. Subsequently we don't see her. It is a shame, because you are right she is not them, but we have just accepted it as the way it has to be while she is a minor.

I'd be extremely upset if GCBro and NSIL attempted to see my son, as I don't trust them at all (after she raged in front of children, which was the start of NC and then VLC!) so I guess it goes both ways.

I hope you find a solution that works for your situation.

[Latchkey]

I wish I had better answers. I know once they get older and get into social media you may be able to make a connection. Cousin to cousin contact can be good as well. I'm struggling with this now as I have a niece and nephew that have been alienated by my PDsis. Maybe if the r/s with their mother changes and all the kids get older you can get back into your god daughters and others lives. Sometimes kids grow up and realize what has been going on. I do hope you find a solution but for now take comfort in that you are doing what you need to do to protect your children who are vulnerable at this young age.

[carrots]

Thanks for the replies. It helped me to write about the situation rather than just churning over in my head.

Now I think it's one of these situations that will take time, maybe a number of years. There's just no quick solution in FOO, which I have to accept and come to realize that the fact that others have problems (fleas, uPDs, uCPTSD etc.) and aren't getting any treatment affects everything. It's back to the 3 Cs. I didn't cause the family dysfunction and I can't cure it or control it. My god-daughter and my relationship with her is likely to become a casualty of the family dysfunction. I made my decision to finally put myself first. I don't regret this decision - it really was necessary and will remain so for the foreseeable future. Probably forever.
It's sad, but I have to save myself.

I don't think in my case that B and SIL are protecting their DD from me. I even looked after her when she was an infant and they had no issue with that. No, B and FOO in general are still protecting uPDM and stopping the family boat from capsizing. As SG, I and my general well-being are being sacrificed so as not to 'hurt' M. So I've finally put myself first. As many other posters on here have found out before me, I can't remain in 'normal' contact and simultaneously relinquish the role of SG.

[silvia_ago]

carrots- I can totally relate to your situation. I've become (my husband and I) semi-estranged from my whole FOO -which is weird, given that they live 20 minutes away from me- and this includes my brother and SIL and my only niece. It has not been easy at all to accept that I can't be a more active part in her life -as you said, she's not her parents, and whenever we met with her, she's always very sweet and caring... adding to my sense of guilt because I am her only aunt and I can feel that, maybe, she misses this kind of relationship with me. But on the other hand, we never had a really close bound to begin with (the estrangement began when she was born), so I did't "cut her out" after I was in her life. Like you, I hope to be able to make a connection with her once she's older, even if I am afraid my FOO will try to use her as a flying monkey -already tried to guilt me into seeing them using her as an excuse. I just hope I will be able to explain her that none of this is her fault, hope that she doesn't somehow feel rejected (or that someone makes her believe that).
There's no other way from me, as my brother's family and my disfunctional parents and FOO are forever enmeshed in a non- healthy bundle of tidings and obligations I simply do not want to take part in. My parents were her babysitters, she is very close to them, there's simply no way for me to be close to her without being enmeshed again, and like you, I finally decided to put myself first.
Let's just hope these niece and nephews will grow into people seeing right through family dysfunction, or at least, they will be able to reach out to us when they realize something is not quite right with their parents. that's something I would have liked growing up.
hughs!

[all4peace]

I'm on both sides of this painful issue.

When the PDs in our lives are crappy to us as the parents, they are not welcome to have a private intimate relationship iwth our children. It's a matter of trust and normalization.

Of course, I feel like as an aunt I could have a relationship with the nieces and nephews and NOT drag the dysfunction into that relationship, but it also feels like hypocrisy and a double standard if I expect to be allowed access to their children, but they not have access to mine.

For now, we use our times in public to really engage with the nieces and nephews and enjoy our very short time with them. I was the auntie who did all the babysitting while their parents all went out with the ILs, so we had a really solid foundation of experience and enjoyment. I hope that can hold until adulthood. I do think, though, that there are a lot of generational casualties in a PD-warring family. It is heartbreaking.

For our part, to try to stop the bleeding, we encourage our kids to fully engage with their cousins when they have the chance to. It would be wonderful if the disease could not spread to the next generation.

Not sure any of this helped. I guess the baseline is do what you can, appropriately, when you can, to try to keep some small bond alive. Of course, a relationship between a parent and child (even if that parent is PD) imo is sacrosanct and shouldn't be harmed in any way whatsoever. When we engage with our nieces and nephews, of course there is NEVER talk about the family and its issues. Our engagement is purely about what fun things are going on at school, how sports are going, what neat things they got for their most recent birthday, etc.

[silvia_ago]

all4peace, exactly; my niece is young (6 years old) and very attached to my parents, with whom I have the biggest issues; so obviously, I am avoiding like plague to see her together with my parents, as children are really quick to pick up on such kind of tension. with my brother and SIL, there was no real fight, just a not so close kind of bond even before my niece was born -my brother and I, we were not very close during or teen and adult years, apart from a short time when I got together with my husband, as he was very eager to help me strenghten my bond with them; needless to say, he was more disappointed than me when he realized what kind of persons they really are. but as I was saying, there was no real fight; I just finally let go of something that was never real in the first place. I really would have liked to have a closer sibling relationship but I've come to terms that this is just not going to happen with my brother; and it's not me, as I have more real "sibling"  bond with some friends of mine, than with him. He never wanted to consider me a friend and a confidant, and I just stopped to try and get his attention (with no little amount of suffering on my part, he's my big brother and also the GC so I grew up to believe gaining his attention was the best thing in the world).
I cannot say he doen't care for me, in fact whenever we met our interaction are cordial, no more than they would be with a distant cousin you see once in three months. my SIL never ever tried to make friends with me (and that's cool, she has her own friends), but then, when my niece was born, she seemed set to "make my niece get to know her only aunt". Why she was so convinced that my niece should spend time with me, when she didn't want to do that herself, I never understood; however, I am not opposed to spend time with them as long as they don't try and bring my parents in it. needless to say, they try quite often, and are always turned down.
also tried some tricks like, when my mother interrogate my by message and I don't answer, later "totally  by chance" my SIL or my brother drops a message as well, inquiring "what we are up to"... that's why even if I am not opposite to spend time with them as it gives me the chanche to interact with my niece, I am not really comfortable, ever, because I feel like I have to screen what I am saying, as it will be undoubtely relayed to my parents.
on top of that, now I am pregnant as well, and I really am not so impatient to see how this situation will unravel... we'll see.

[Peace Lily]

I totally sympathise with your situation Carrots.  I have been cut off by my BPD niece and have decided to go no contact for my own protection. I have no children of my own, so I am only protecting myself. My niece has 2 young children, my great niece and nephew who I will no longer see and not only are they not responsible for their mother's behaviour I worry for the harm that my waif BPD and overprotective codependent husband may do.  I have seen my GN's happy cheerful demeanour change completely when my niece is having a melt down (and I have been blamed for causing him going into himself and setting back all the good work niece has done).  There is a lot of victim playing and my GNephew and GNiece's ailments have also been used in a very attention seeking way. I really feel for them as I think they will be affected by their parents co-dependent relationship as my sister and I have been by our parents.  I would also like to maintain some connection as a support for them. I hope that they get Out of the FOG before the age of 54 which is how long it has taken me!  Sorry I am not more help to you, but I hope you find comfort in knowing you are not alone

[carrots]

Thank you so much sunrise and Peace Lily for the description of your cases. It really does help to know I'm not alone!

Thank you too all4peace. I was hoping you might have something to say since you deal so much with ILs and sibs and own parents and protecting your children from them...

idk any more what my sibs even think. I won't discuss with them anymore there was such massive betrayal of me last time I saw them all. I would just end up JADEing. As with my parents, I've said enough over the years. Nobody in FOO wants to know. Last time was the Final Straw.

I wouldn't dream of criticizing B and SIL to little niece, nor when she's a lot older either. There was quite enough of that going on when I was growing up - adults using children to deal with issues the adults weren't brave enough to pursue with the other adults in question. In my FOO the dysfunction has sadly already moved into the next generation.

[carrots]

An update:
Externally no change. But internally - I'm feeling better able to let little niece go and with that also let my own pain go. Or maybe I've expressed enough of it for the moment. I'm also noticing more and more that it's difficult for me to instigate any contact like cards to nieces or nephews while there's this gigantic elephant-in-the-room problem between me and their parents. That their parents possibly don't even know about. Yes, such is my SG status and such is the amount of denial on the part of FOO that they might not even realize that this is real. Even though I've been various forms of LC and NC before.  at the denial in FOO.

Anyway the change in me (aka some degree of emotional healing) has partially come about through my post on here and the replies I got. So thanks for being there, reading and responding!

[carrots]

I know as I posted further up probably that many on here who are Out of the FOG say: no way am I allowing my kids to have access to PD relations. My position being the other side of the coin so to speak makes this feel difficult. 

Now I realise why. My uPDM tried her best to undercut relationships I had with people she didn't approve of and enF went right along with it. That meant uPDM tried her level best to get between me and my GrM (enF's mother). She managed too, in a way. I treated GrM pretty badly as a child, trying to get M's love. It didn't work because that's not what M was offering. She just didn't want anybody supporting me in any way whatsoever. That would have made it difficult for my continuing role as SG.

I don't think paternal GrM was perfect. For one thing enF got his enabling somewhere and he also has long-term depression, but without her influence I think I would have been even more unhappy as a child/teen and even worse off as an adult in general. She's a member of FOO I can think back to and know: she saw the amount of emotional pain I was in, she tried to help me. She undoubtedly tried first with enF, but didn't get anywhere, so then she tried with my M and all hell broke loose. But M couldn't actually really get back at her, so she blamed me and made my life miserable for years on account of this alone. She made my life miserable anyway, but this was an added reason for her. "Everything wrong in the family is your fault. The ILs don't like me because of you."      She's possibly still blaming me, or maybe she's switched back to blaming GrM for causing the family rift of me being VVVLC. GrM is long since deceased so not touched by any of that. uPDM also tried her best to keep me away from my uncle, who is my godfather, meanwhile bemoaning the fact that my other uncle seemed to have no interest in B1 to whom he was godfather.

So when some of you on here say: "PDs don't get access to our kids", I understand but it's just not the same as my position! If my sibs were moving Out of the FOG, they'd be severely restricting access between their kids and my parents, but they're not. I mean, there was actual abuse from M to all us kids in my generation. Even though my sibs dispute the sexual part and possibly don't really understand the emotional part, they do know the physical part. Well, no, maybe B2 doesn't actually. New idea. He just pretended all those years he did? B1 does understand, including the emotional part. He suffered lots too as a kid.

I'm not the PD here, but I'm getting punished for setting boundaries to protect myself in FOO. You are destined to repeat what you don't look at. That is what my sibs are doing, especially B2 whose daughter is my god-daughter.  His wife even has parallels with M, a thing B1 finds amusing about M, without realizing what that means about B2 and SIL2 and their relationship. B2 is enabling...

I know I can't cure the FOO dysfunction, but it's still hard to have these realizations.

P.S. I don't have kids of my own.

[sandpiper]

Been there, and I understand how distressing this is. I think it also triggers our issues because back when we were kids, there were people that our PD carers cut out of our lives so we understand all too well how much that hurts. And then there's the guilt of wanting to do something that conflicts with the knowledge that we have to take care of ourselves.
My T summed it up thus 'take care of yourself and be a good role model.'
There's a line in Understanding the Borderline Mother that says that only Time can release the Witch's Prisoners.
One day they will turn 18 and physically they will be free.
Psychologically, given the Stockholm syndrome that PD families generate, and the tendency for the cycle to continue unbroken...hmm.
My experience was that the PD parents became spectacularly worse about wanting to smear & scapegoat me as the children entered adolescence. I think it was a reaction to the children wanting to differentiate & develop autonomy & become individuals.
PD parents respond by becoming insecure & either tightening the chains or throwing a few extra padlocks on the door & adding extra bottom-feeders to the moat around their inaccessible castle in the air.
I'm incredibly impressed with the increase in awareness of PD behaviour in the arts/film/television and how there's more portrayals of that, even from Disney onwards. You just didn't see that when I was a child.
I think there's a lot of creative people who've been influenced by sites like these and they've set out to make a difference. So try to take some comfort in that.
I know I do.
Curiously the children that I've spent the most time with seem to be the least influenced by me and the one who has made the most progress with understanding PD FOO is the one who was the most heavily brainwashed as a child. She has really turned around and OMG she gets it. That is one helluva switched on 20yro.
I think it does come back to the three Cs & you kind of just have to be yourself and do what you need to do, and just hope that you are the spark that lights the fire in one of them. Ultimately it comes down to how receptive the personality is to change.
Some children of PDs will trauma-bond with their PD parents and they will simply shut their eyes to the behaviour, insist it's normal, undermine siblings who try to deal with it, and they'll step up to the dais to take the crown & sceptre from the biggest of the bullying PDs when the time comes to hand that on.
I've had the grief of watching that happen & it's been the child that I poured my own soul into, in hopes that this would not happen.
Ultimately she chose to mimic the behaviour of the PD.
It's trauma-bonding, and Stockholm syndrome, and the sad reality that sometimes it is just too hard for them to face the demons under the rug - there is a powerful psychological need to believe that the PD parent belongs on a pedestal and his/her love is real.
I have a cousin pushing 60 who still tells stories about how wonderful his mother was, even though those that knew her, know the truth.
God that sounds depressing.
I don't want to discourage anyone from putting time into the children of PDs, but I think you have to let go of the idea that you can somehow influence the outcome of how that will turn out.
So I think it comes down to what my trauma counsellor said.
Live your life, be who you need to be, set effective boundaries and above all - be a good role model.
Sometimes it is just immensely powerful for children to see that you are quietly getting on with things and enjoying life and being loving and productive and setting effective boundaries, rather than getting caught up in the BS of it all.
I came to the realisation that by staying, I was simply teaching nephews and nieces that it was OK to treat me the same way that their parents did.
When it came time to set some boundaries with that, they didn't accept them. They were as horrified and affronted by my boundaries as their parents were.
If I had my time over, and I knew then what I know now, I would probably put less time into some of those relationships, just so that I could spare the resources to build and nurture the relationships that nourish me.

[carrots]

Sandpiper, thank you for your long, detailed response. I've come back to read it a few times. Thanks also for saying you understand, though I'm sorry you've been there too.

Among other things, your response is helping me in my realization that B and SIL are PD. Those rose-colored glasses I was taught by FOO to see FOO with are getting clearer. Yes, SIL2 has similarities with M. If SIL2 isn't actually uBPD, then she has a fair portion of Queen/Witch fleas. And B2 is an enabler, like enF.

Oh, I get trauma-bonding. I was trauma-bonded and am still not completely unbonded from my parents and B. It's only now with your post that I see that my goddaughter might well get trauma-bonded too. Up until recently I've been believing the FOO myth that SIL2 and B2 are really capable parents. Never thinking they might pass the dysfunction on. Well, their children behave and my goddaughter seemed well-adjusted last time I saw her. A child behaving is a major criteria in FOO for successful parenting.

So through your post and reflecting I'm beginning to accept that it's unlikely I can play a role in my goddaughter's life while she's still under 18. Putting time in there is like the wasted time I've put into so many other PDs in my FOO, before I realized they were PD. When I was still believing deeply within my soul that I was the only one in FOO with a problem.
Now I know that's not true and so it's important for me to put focus on my own life.

Role-model is difficult because I live overseas and never see my goddaughter briefly in a way you might if you lived closer. I suppose it comes down to trying to be the best person I can be for me and not revolving around FOO, not even in my thoughts at how to maintain some relationship with my little goddaughter, but instead moving on with my life.

[Elsbeth]

My kids have had relationships with various uPDs ... which I have gone VLC or NC. And I remind myself that my kids relationships are THEIR relationships. But I stand firm with my VLC and NC and sometimes I have to remind my kids of WHY I do that - rehashing the events that led me to finally say enough is enough. But also I included that those events were between ME and the uPD.

The point being, if you can have a healthy relationship with your young niece and nephew and not drift into commentary regarding your relationship with uPDs; then continue to be the example of a healthy adult with the niece and nephew. Perhaps learn tools to build a boundary with the uPDs so that you do not feel sucked into the uPD world.

[sandpiper]

 
Hugs to all of you going through this.
It had to be one of the most difficult issues for me to navigate.
I'm with Elsbeth - if you can set effective and healthy boundaries with the PD parents & you don't get caught up in their games, go for it.
Unfortunately so much of the PD behaviour is about head games and gaslighting and manipulating you in order to get their own needs met, with zero regard for yours, that this is an enormous challenge.
Don't let them make you jump through hoops to have a relationship with their children.
That has to be one of the biggest mistakes that I made, along the way.
The real hurt came when the eldest of my niece's grew up and she threw that bit of behaviour at me, too.
She'd learned that children are hostages and time with them can be traded for favours, and time away from them could be used as a punishment.
That has to be one of the most shocking moments in my time with that child, as she had suffered more than any of the others when her father tried that strategy on me.
To see her do it to her own daughter...nup.
It's just really, really hard, because they grow up in such a toxic soup of unhealthy behaviours that they have no idea which way is up, unless there is some sort of massive moment of reckoning that leads to some sort of personal epiphany.
So much of the behaviour is just learned straight from the parent that it is really difficult to create constructive change.
Sometimes I wonder what I would do if I had my time over, knowing what I know now.
I'd still put the time in, but I think I'd save a lot of energy for myself, and for building healthy relationships that nurture me.
it's just so hard, when the parents have no insight into their behaviour and they don't see the need to change, or to seek help.
I do think that having positive role models - even if they live at a distance - can have a huge impact on young people.
But yes. Very difficult, this one.

[yesyoucanfindit]

I'm VLC with my cluster b sisters, and am waiting till their kids hit 19 before reaching out directly. Its how I connected with the extended family when I graduated college, and the relationships worked out fine. Im having my 19 year old nephew stay for a week this summer and Im not dealing with his mom's abusive bs.

[carrots]

My kids have had relationships with various uPDs ... which I have gone VLC or NC. And I remind myself that my kids relationships are THEIR relationships. But I stand firm with my VLC and NC and sometimes I have to remind my kids of WHY I do that - rehashing the events that led me to finally say enough is enough. But also I included that those events were between ME and the uPD.

With all due respect, I'm not the one with the kids though. My sibs and their spouses are. They're the ones who could do with noting that the issues are between me and them, not between me and their kids but they won't unless they come Out of the FOG some day.

I don't see how I can have a healthy relationship with my nieces and nephews at this geographical distance and considering the emotional distance between their parents and me. I don't even feel comfortable phoning my sibs or being phoned by them. Last time I went into freeze mode and couldn't protect myself emotionally/verbally at all. Just a big emotional flashback. I don't have that with my little nieces and nephews. They weren't around in my childhood, abusing and enabling, so contact with them isn't triggering.

Anyway, that's my answer. Ever dwindling relationship with nieces and nephews until it's zero. It's just not possible. FOO contact is too destructive to me emotionally.

[Malini]

Carrots! So nice to see you back on the boards and thank you for chiming in on my post about SiL.

SIL has decided I'm too much like NM for her to want to see me. I learned this just as my nieces had returned home and was in a quandary about seeing them with so much negative feeling in the air.

Over the years of coming Out of the FOG, I've tirelessly sent gifts for bdays, Xmas, graduations and bits and pieces from travels. There were years without any direct contact (5) and then years of tentative contact up until recently. Nieces are now 18, 21 and 22.

Despite having a fairly good but 'work in progress' relationship with my B, I had felt, up until now, that I needed to have at least a civil relationship with SiL, but have realised this week that not only does she not want this, that she also ticks a lot of the N trait boxes.

Dilemma about meeting up with nieces, so I called DS2 for a 'young persons' take on the situation (he is good friends with niece1).  He told me 'actions speak louder than words'. He reassured me that I have only shown love, care, generosity and kindness to them and that they were old enough now to make their own choices based on their experiences with me and DH.

I suggested a few dates and possibilities and all three chose to come for lunch. I was wary, because I don't know how much they've overheard at home about me, but thought I'd play it by ear as the last thing I would want is for them to feel uncomfortable or torn in loyalties. Within the hour, they asked if I'd take them to the beach for a day next week!

I don't know if you've already decided to cut off with your goddaughter or nieces/nephews, if not, based on my experience, I'd say persevere. Do you think your gifts are being passed on? If yes, then continue to show you care.

These children will grow up and may need an auntie or godmother to turn to at some point in their lives.

My own nieces have gone through a lot because of my Narents and SGB's mental health issues as well as SiL limitations as a parent and I'm happy that I am able to provide a safe space for them, no strings attached. If they had never reciprocated as older teenagers or adults, I'd probably have thrown in the towel (as I did with one goddaughter)

We now have a whatsapp group and exchange mainly lighthearted and silly stuff which allows us to stay connected and for me to show them that I care and and am interested about them and their lives.

Just my 2 cents, based on recent events. Take care 

[carrots]

I don't know if you've already decided to cut off with your goddaughter or nieces/nephews, if not, based on my experience, I'd say persevere. Do you think your gifts are being passed on? If yes, then continue to show you care.

Yes, my gifts do get passed on, or at least they have been up till recently.

It's not so much my "cutting them off" as just not re-contacting. The initiative comes from me to begin with. The biggest problem for me is that I'm not nearly healed from cptsd and just thinking about FOO of my generation or older sends me spinning into emotional flashbacks. So far I haven't managed to send gifts / cards to nieces/nephews without thinking about their parents' disapproval. Though actually my gifts are perfectly harmless. I'm not sending anything their parents object to or have rules about. For some reason, writing this is making me cry. I hardly ever cry so it's probably a good thing to let the pain and sadness out.

It's hard but it seems to me I need to care more about myself and my healing than about my nieces and nephews who might need me later but at what cost to me? Very high cost.

But I haven't made a definitive decision yet. I'm dealing with other issues atm e.g. friendships, which are a bit easier, and I can only deal with so much at one time.

[Muggins]

My situation is different because I was sending cash on birthdays and Christmas to my great nephews, not my nephew. I gave up on him long ago but I like his wife and she would always thank me. The oldest great nephew thanked me personally for the first time last year at the age of 13. At first I was pleased but gradually I began to feel bad about it. This year he didn't thank me and I finally realized the reason it felt bad is because I don't have a relationship with any of them. Why was I sending them all this cash? They probably felt wrong about it too. I told my nephew's wife I was stopping and felt better immediately. No longer do I obsess over it.