BPDm crying, wanting me to enmesh, what am I doing wrong? What do I do?

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VividImagination

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Re: BPDm crying, wanting me to enmesh, what am I doing wrong? What do I do?
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2017, 08:32:09 AM »
I wouldn't talk with her about anything...it will turn into an accusations festival that she has been preparing for.

"This is a personal problem that you are having. This is not a normal mother/daughter relationship. It's unhealthy, and it's taking way too much time from my family, which is my main priority. You need to see a therapist about how to stop obsessing about me and focus on more productive things in your life."

This may be easier to send electronically than say.

I have been wondering if your mother's hyperfocus on you is her way of "proving" to herself that she is a good mother and her abuse of you and your dad never happened.

This woman needs to get a damn hobby that is NOT you.
There are three solutions to every problem: accept it, change it, or leave it. If you cannot accept it, change it. I f you cannot change it, leave it.

Sometimes you're damned if you don't and damned if you do, so damn well do what's best for you.

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all4peace

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Re: BPDm crying, wanting me to enmesh, what am I doing wrong? What do I do?
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2017, 09:12:21 AM »
I wouldn't talk with her about anything...it will turn into an accusations festival that she has been preparing for.

"This is a personal problem that you are having. This is not a normal mother/daughter relationship. It's unhealthy, and it's taking way too much time from my family, which is my main priority. You need to see a therapist about how to stop obsessing about me and focus on more productive things in your life."

This may be easier to send electronically than say.

I have been wondering if your mother's hyperfocus on you is her way of "proving" to herself that she is a good mother and her abuse of you and your dad never happened.

This woman needs to get a damn hobby that is NOT you.
Everything Vivid just said, especially the suggested sentence. Don't let her make it about you. It's not about you. Please read this thread on manipulation, http://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=67273.msg592765#msg592765 , especially the list of manipulation techniques. It clears the FOG a bit so that the next time she starts using them on you, you may be better able to see them for the tactics they are rather than getting sucked into the emotion and drama. It also is freeing in not feeling so much guilt about ignoring the tactics and not being sucked in.

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Spring Butterfly

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Re: BPDm crying, wanting me to enmesh, what am I doing wrong? What do I do?
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2017, 09:38:32 AM »
You did great! Really and truly!

It may hurt her for you to individuate but it's doesn't harm her. The Boundaries book used the illustration of teeth and eating too much sugar, eating too much sugar felt really good but harmed the tooth and caused damage. Now the tooth has a cavity and needs to be fixed which is really going to hurt but is necessary to fix the damage and the harm. There's a difference between hurt and harm.

When pulling away from an unhealthy enmeshed relationship it's like cutting the supply off for a drug addict or alcoholic. You're her addiction, she has nothing else in her life by her own choice. This is not your problem - that she has chosen you to be the center of her universe. It doesn't matter that she's your mother, in fact all the more it was her job to raise you and let you go live your life.

That's all you're trying to do - to live your life.

She will live, she'll be ok, just like any other addiction she will either choose to get well or she will find another supply.

You're not alone, uPDm was terribly enmeshed, when I ran errands without her it was the catastrophic end of her world. When I went to dinner with friends uPDm and enF got themselves invited along behind my back getting in touch with the friends and hey lookee there they're coming too! How lovely. When I had to tend to my own medical needs and could not join them for lunch because of doctor appointments it started a nuclear war complete with screaming at me for not adjusting my schedule around their precious lunch. I could go on but you get the idea, you're not alone.

What Vivid suggested as to what to say and the approach is absolutely spot-on. Stay the course that this is her problem, you are busy with life and she's just going to have to get used to it. If she chooses not to it's still not your problem.
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VividImagination

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Re: BPDm crying, wanting me to enmesh, what am I doing wrong? What do I do?
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2017, 09:46:04 AM »
Spring's examples are great...they really illustrate the issue. Isn't your mother an alcoholic? Is it possible she replaced alcohol with a new addiction...you?

Smothering you emotionally is starting to sound like her proving that she's a good person, good mom, and not the drunk she used to be. Regardless, STILL not your problem.
There are three solutions to every problem: accept it, change it, or leave it. If you cannot accept it, change it. I f you cannot change it, leave it.

Sometimes you're damned if you don't and damned if you do, so damn well do what's best for you.

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practical

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Re: BPDm crying, wanting me to enmesh, what am I doing wrong? What do I do?
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2017, 10:16:30 AM »
I wouldn't talk with her about anything...it will turn into an accusations festival that she has been preparing for.

"This is a personal problem that you are having. This is not a normal mother/daughter relationship. It's unhealthy, and it's taking way too much time from my family, which is my main priority. You need to see a therapist about how to stop obsessing about me and focus on more productive things in your life."

This may be easier to send electronically than say.

I have been wondering if your mother's hyperfocus on you is her way of "proving" to herself that she is a good mother and her abuse of you and your dad never happened.

This woman needs to get a damn hobby that is NOT you.
I really cannot add anything to this other than also throw my head in the ring for sending this. Please, do not engage in another emotional abuse fest by her, and that is exactly what a talk with her would be.

What occurred to me last night is that you seem to be her doll. She used to be able to play with you in her make belief world of where she was the mommy and you her little doll, and you did everything together (shopping, sharing secrets etc.) and now you are broken in her mind. Like a child she is tantruming, she wants her doll back, she is trying tears, rage, manipulation, anything. As long as she had you to play with, she didn't have to face her own life, you were her doll and her safety blanket wrapped in one. You know how frantic, anxious Linus gets when his blanket gets washed, that is your M, only a real child - you - is neither a safety blanket nor a doll, a child is an individual. I agree with Springbutterfly and Vividimagination, you are her addiction, and part of addiction is to not have to face your own life. With you individuating, she is going through withdrawal and she doesn't like the feeling, that is her hurt and it is her problem to fix but she rather get her "bottle of Dinah sore" back. None of this is your responsibility.
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all4peace

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Re: BPDm crying, wanting me to enmesh, what am I doing wrong? What do I do?
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2017, 10:38:33 AM »
What occurred to me last night is that you seem to be her doll. She used to be able to play with you in her make belief world of where she was the mommy and you her little doll, and you did everything together (shopping, sharing secrets etc.) and now you are broken in her mind. Like a child she is tantruming, she wants her doll back, she is trying tears, rage, manipulation, anything. As long as she had you to play with, she didn't have to face her own life, you were her doll and her safety blanket wrapped in one.
This rings so true. When I finally set boundaries with uBPDmil, I had a similar image in my mind to explain her response. I was like a pet, that she abused and mistreated for so long that it finally died, and she was freaking out, shaking it and shaking it, demanding it come back to life again and be her pet again.

There's absolute objectification in that dynamic, one reason it may feel so horrible. It really is about them, and not us, and when this is a parent figure it is painful to come to that realization.

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DustyMemories

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Re: BPDm crying, wanting me to enmesh, what am I doing wrong? What do I do?
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2017, 11:12:45 AM »
Dinah-Sore,

One comment from me: Give yourself permission to not answer your mother's phone calls or texts. That is true whether it's once or many times in a row. Answer when you're good and ready. If you want. You do not exist to be eternally available for soothing her needy self.

My anxiety used to go through the roof when I saw my mother come up on caller ID, primarily because I felt obliged to answer and I didn't want to. Then I gave myself permission to ignore her calls. These days I let out a couple of exasperated swear words, then let it go to voicemail and go about my day. When I'm ready I'll listen to any message she leaves and decide if I want to call her back. I haven't responded at all to the last couple of phone calls.

Granted, your mother is a lot more persistent than mine. That's where that helpful mantra "I am not responsible for my mother's feelings" comes in. That's where you need to decide what your boundaries are and how you will defend them.

Stay strong!

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daughter

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Re: BPDm crying, wanting me to enmesh, what am I doing wrong? What do I do?
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2017, 11:15:20 AM »
Your mother needs a mental health evaluation by a qualified psychologist or psychiatrist.

As you know, your mother's expectations and demands are unreasonable, invasive, and reflect her consistent "mind-blindness" to your own needs.  What you've been describing is a hellish scenario.  She's overbearing and unpleasant, out-of-control, and seething with rage, while incessantly cajoling you for more "face-time".  Her irrationality, her inability to comprehend your needs and "separateness", these are signs of acute mental distress.  It's time to insist on a psychological evaluation.  I'd make that a condition for all further contact. 

And from hereon, I'd immediately terminate all conversations with her, whether phone-call or car-ride or visit, when her "venting" begins.  Stop tolerating her bad behavior in the instant that it begins. 

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SunnyMeadow

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Re: BPDm crying, wanting me to enmesh, what am I doing wrong? What do I do?
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2017, 02:18:25 PM »
I wouldn't talk with her about anything...it will turn into an accusations festival that she has been preparing for.
"This is a personal problem that you are having. This is not a normal mother/daughter relationship. It's unhealthy, and it's taking way too much time from my family, which is my main priority. You need to see a therapist about how to stop obsessing about me and focus on more productive things in your life."

An accusations festival is a good way to put it. Your mom sounds a lot like mine and my mom would be making notes of all the awful things I've done TO her in preparation for our upcoming phone call of "how I hurt her". It's awful, it feels terrible and we shouldn't have to put up with it but it's so hard to get Out of the FOG.  :(

Dinah-sore, please consider saying or typing something like VI wrote above, then block her communications for a week or so. It's caring and to the point. By saying "this is a personal problem you're having" it takes you out of the equation. You aren't the problem, it's truly her problem. It seems nothing will change with your mother. This goes on and on and she never sees her part in all this drama. In her mind, you are the only one causing these problems.

Isn't it sad that you're looking for a caring way to disengage and lessen her drama toward you but she isn't at all interested in being caring and loving to you? It's quite eye opening really.

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daughterofbpd

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Re: BPDm crying, wanting me to enmesh, what am I doing wrong? What do I do?
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2017, 03:16:19 PM »
I noticed there are a lot of always & never statements in your Mís half of the conversation http://outofthefog.website/top-100-trait-blog/2015/10/21/always-never-statements.
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moglow

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Re: BPDm crying, wanting me to enmesh, what am I doing wrong? What do I do?
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2017, 03:38:44 PM »
Dinah, can you at least "either / or" to eliminate at least some of the invasive contact - either call OR text, not both. I had to with mine, she was so invasive when she went on a rampage that I couldn't take both. She'd call and leave nasty messages then text repeatedly, then more messages. Thankfully she had both home and cell phone, so I could (and did) block her cell phone. Hell, let her decide which it will be, then go from there.

It did not go over well and still doesn't, but whatever. I use my cell phone at work and couldn't ignore a barrage of increasingly spiteful texts, so that worked best for me. My brother said he preferred texts so he didn't have to hear her voice or *that tone*. Mother still brings it up but I explained it one last time, after that changed the subject immediately and moved on.

You could also eliminate email and severely limit what she sees on fb, unfollow her so she drops from your newsfeed. I don't think I'd even try discussing it with her, that would just start another pity party.

Always remember - you're an adult. You have plenty of responsibility to yourself, your marriage and family, your job and friends. There is not one thing wrong with *not* having 24/7 365 contact via multiple means. Your mother needs to find other outlets for her angst and insecurities. If she refuses, they're still not your holes to fill.
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Dinah-sore

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Re: BPDm crying, wanting me to enmesh, what am I doing wrong? What do I do?
« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2017, 03:41:57 PM »
Thank you guys for all of your comments. I barely slept last night and I tried to sleep in a bit this morning. I donít feel good, and she has already called three times this morning. I have let them go to VM because I am tired, not ready for another round, and I havenít firmed up my exact plan of how to respond. I love what Vivid said. I will definitely include how this is not about me, but her. It is true, my mom wants a blame fest.

I am not in a great place, stress and anxiety wise. But she is being freaking persistent today. I feel like I need to call her back or it will hang over my head all day, and further ruin my day.

I am going to read the links you guys shared on manipulation and always never statements.

I am so angry that this is happening.

I am actually angry at myself too, because I wish I was able to just text her what Vivid wrote and then block her. I am not there yet, in bravery, not desire. I still see so much FOG in how I am handling this. Pardon my language, but I feel like sh!t, like Iím not being good enough for her or good enough for me. I will fail her no matter what (unless I fawn and enmesh), but I feel like I am failing me too (I want to be strong and set boundaries, and I want to be a nice person and live in peace). Iím rambling. So sorry. I need to reread the comments and figure out how to respond to her before I have 10 missed calls. ❤️

Crap. She just called again while I was rereading this comment. 4 missed calls. I canít breathe. I feel hunted. Maybe I sound dramatic. I am just so tired and I donít feel good.
"I had to accept the fact that, look, this is who I am. I have to be who I am, and all of us have a right to be who we are. And whenever we submit our will, because our will is a gift, our will is given to us, whenever we submit our will to someone else's opinion a part of us dies." --Lauryn Hill

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RapunzelNoMore

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Re: BPDm crying, wanting me to enmesh, what am I doing wrong? What do I do?
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2017, 04:25:19 PM »
Dinah, our parents know the buttons to push because they installed them. She is pulling every weapon out of her arsenal now.

It's been said before, our PD parents view us as appliances or tools that sit in a particular spot till they need us. Once we've filled that need, we go back on the shelf. She is now attempting to "kick the washer" because it's not working "right". In other words, she thinks that once she delivers the right "blow", you will be back "in working order".

You are not a washer, not a wrench. You are a person, a beautiful individual who is allowed to have a life apart from her.
And at last I see the light, and it's like the fog has lifted

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Blueskies

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Re: BPDm crying, wanting me to enmesh, what am I doing wrong? What do I do?
« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2017, 04:35:05 PM »
Thank you guys for all of your comments. I barely slept last night and I tried to sleep in a bit this morning. I donít feel good, and she has already called three times this morning. I have let them go to VM because I am tired, not ready for another round, and I havenít firmed up my exact plan of how to respond. I love what Vivid said. I will definitely include how this is not about me, but her. It is true, my mom wants a blame fest.

I am not in a great place, stress and anxiety wise. But she is being freaking persistent today. I feel like I need to call her back or it will hang over my head all day, and further ruin my day.

I am going to read the links you guys shared on manipulation and always never statements.

I am so angry that this is happening.

I am actually angry at myself too, because I wish I was able to just text her what Vivid wrote and then block her. I am not there yet, in bravery, not desire. I still see so much FOG in how I am handling this. Pardon my language, but I feel like sh!t, like Iím not being good enough for her or good enough for me. I will fail her no matter what (unless I fawn and enmesh), but I feel like I am failing me too (I want to be strong and set boundaries, and I want to be a nice person and live in peace). Iím rambling. So sorry. I need to reread the comments and figure out how to respond to her before I have 10 missed calls. ❤️

Crap. She just called again while I was rereading this comment. 4 missed calls. I canít breathe. I feel hunted. Maybe I sound dramatic. I am just so tired and I donít feel good.

You are being hunted. It's not ok...there's a level of severe harassment going on here. I find the mantras 'I am good enough', 'I was always good enough' helpful for the feelings you describe. Lisa Romano has some great visualisation/hynotism tracks with these affirmations (you have to use earphones as she uses biurnal beats to help the msg go into the subconcious). You cannot be what she wants you to be because you can't fix what is damaged and broken in her - you should not be her bandage nor her punching bag. You deserve to feel safe. You could always get advice from a mental health crisis team. She is really acting out of control now.

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practical

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Re: BPDm crying, wanting me to enmesh, what am I doing wrong? What do I do?
« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2017, 05:31:03 PM »
Quote
I am not in a great place, stress and anxiety wise. But she is being freaking persistent today. I feel like I need to call her back or it will hang over my head all day, and further ruin my day.
Please try to toughen it out, don't call her today, this is exactly what she wants, to wear you down. I understand wanting to get it over with, I know I have often done this, ending up reinforcing the pattern of if my parents push hard enough I'll give in and so they get the reward they desire. I enabled them with wanting to get it over with.

See her as the toddler she is behaving like and leave her in a Time Out, which is over when you say so. If you keep being unavailable she will give up eventually, just like a child left alone with a temper tantrum can be found playing by itself, having moved on. Can you set your phone so you don't even see her VM/texts? Or so only calls by your FOC get through and maybe work if you use it for that? If that doesn't work for you, send her a text "I will not talk to you today, only when I feel ready."

She is hunting and haunting you. You are not failing her, it is not your job to make her happy, to take care of her feelings, her abandonment issues. However you are is good enough, or would be good enough if she was able to love unconditionally. She is failing herself and you by not behaving like an adult.
:bighug:
ďIf Iím not towards myself, who is towards myself? And when Iím only towards myself, what am I? And if not now, when?Ē (Rabbi Hillel)

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moglow

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Re: BPDm crying, wanting me to enmesh, what am I doing wrong? What do I do?
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2017, 05:31:29 PM »
With true compassion - how have you not exploded all over her and demanded that she back off already?? I get it (sort of), she's caught in a loop. But it's HER loop of her own making. It's not yours - it's not of your making and not yours to fix. You can't on any level, and every phone call and text just reaffirms what you already know. Remember, it never was your stuff - she's just foisted it off on you.

If you can/will, take a step - just one - for yourself today. Turn the damned phone off until tomorrow, then decide what you want to do about it. Revel in the quiet and celebrate the freedom. She will survive. Question is - how much longer are you willing to do this to yourself and your family?
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bopper

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Re: BPDm crying, wanting me to enmesh, what am I doing wrong? What do I do?
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2017, 05:59:02 PM »
Quote
She said that she loves me so much and she thinks about me 24 hours a day, and I don't care about her. She says she wants to be as close as we used to be and asked me if I could try harder to call her.

"Well see, Mom, I think this is the problem. If you are thinking about me 24 hours a day then you are not thinking about anything else. You have no other aspects to your life...no friends, no hobbies, no work?   Also you are saying I must not love you if I don't do the same...but you know what? THat isn't healthy. I have a family of my own now, I work, I go to church, I do hobbies..I don't think of my children 24 hours a day.

Also we have gotten to the point where whenever I call, it is only to complain about how I am not calling more. Those days are over...I want to be with pleasant people, not continually crying people. So decide what you want: Everything the way you want it, which won't happen and I will back off more and more, or as much time as I can give with you making it a pleasant experience.

So yes, I don't love this guilt inducing crying you. I don't love the controlling you.

Also if you call me an leave me a message, stop at that point. I will not call back any faster if you leave more...in fact it scares me and I wait even longer.  If you cannot accept I am no longer a child and do not plan every minute of my life around you, then perhaps it is time to talk to a therapist. I am an adult now."
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 06:04:31 PM by bopper »
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SunnyMeadow

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Re: BPDm crying, wanting me to enmesh, what am I doing wrong? What do I do?
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2017, 06:08:11 PM »
4 missed calls. I canít breathe. I feel hunted. Maybe I sound dramatic. I am just so tired and I donít feel good.

You don't sound dramatic at all, you are being hunted.

I'm sorry you're going through this. I completely understand wanting to call her back just to get it over with. I fear it isn't going to do much good. If she doesn't get what she wants from you, she's simply going to keep doing what she's doing or ramp it up more. Don't call her today, in fact block her for today. Block email, text and phone just for today.

You need a mental health day that most certainly doesn't include hearing from her again and again....

If it makes you feel better, send her a text similar to what VI wrote and tell her you're taking time off from her texts and calls, and block her. I can feel how stressful this is, I've been in similar situations. It consumes your entire life and thoughts while it's happening. It's so wrong of them to do this to their own children.
Hugs to you!

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Dinah-sore

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Re: BPDm crying, wanting me to enmesh, what am I doing wrong? What do I do?
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2017, 06:48:20 PM »
After I wrote that comment earlier, I had a cup of tea, re-read all your comments, prayed and asked for strength, clarity, wisdom and words.... and I did end up calling her back. I told her I was busy and couldn't talk long. She was in a desperate, needy, super sweet, apologetic mood. She could tell I was still upset from last night, and I told her I was, that I don't like being treated like that and it needs to stop. I told her she has unrealistic expectations for me, and I cannot and will not be able to fulfill her needs, and it is unfair for her to hysterically cry and list all the various things that show her I don't love her enough.

She then switched tactics (? I say that as a maybe, I am not sure if it is conscious or subconscious, but I feel like it is a tactic). She went overboard telling me how I am NOT unable to meet her expectations, that I am the most perfect person she has ever met, that nobody has ever had a daughter as kind, honorable, and affectionate as I have been. That she would never (emphatic voice here) want to make me feel like I can't live up to her expectations. And that this is why lately she has been feeling so sad, because she just "misses" me. She then cried and started bringing up sweet moments from the past, when my kids were little and due to situations we were around each other a lot more. How she misses those times and feels lonely.

Then she says that she doesn't know if it is because she is overweight or because she has a less glamorous job than she used to or because she is not "cool" enough for me to want to be around, but maybe I am embarrassed of her. I said that is bull crap. That not only is her value not dependent on any of that, and I have never acted like that, but that she needs to get her worth by who she is on the inside. Then she started telling me that she needs my help. That she needs to hear that I value her, and to tell her what is good about her. All softly crying and apologizing (she keeps saying things like I think there is something wrong with me, I think I am crazy---but then she says she needs ME to help her). I refused to help her. I said, kindly, "Mom, I love you. But I can't help you with this. This is something you need to work on on your own." She disagreed and then said she just needs a little encouragement. I replied, "No, you need to make a list of all the things that you value about yourself, or you will never believe anything I say. And I can't just keep trying to fix this."

I reminded her that I will not call her more, because of obligation. I won't "like" her Facebook posts because of fear of her getting mad at me if I don't. And I won't feel bad if I need to cancel dinner. And I will no longer sit on the phone while she cries, if she is upset by something I did that wasn't hurtful. She said okay. I said, "I want a relationship with you, but not one that is needy and negative." She said that sounds good. I then told her I had to go.

In one sense, I am not hopeful. I feel like she is trying to get me to rescue her. But I also, am glad that I refused to rescue her, make her feel good about herself, call her more, etc. etc. etc. I do think she sees that she has a problem. But she wants me to fix it. I can't do that. I do feel better. It isn't hanging over my head. I probably should have not called her back. I came back and saw all the comments not to and was like "oops." LOL.

Honestly, I am sure she got her "supply" even if I stated my mind. She got off the phone feeling better. This is probably going to continue the cycle, because she will think she can throw a fit again, and the next day I will be calm and rational, and not angry. I am angry still, but I am tired. Maybe I need to go do my work and go about my day, and then come back to this tonight, read it again. And see what I think after some space and time.

Thank you all sooooooo much for the thought and care you put into the comments. It means so much to me.
"I had to accept the fact that, look, this is who I am. I have to be who I am, and all of us have a right to be who we are. And whenever we submit our will, because our will is a gift, our will is given to us, whenever we submit our will to someone else's opinion a part of us dies." --Lauryn Hill

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Spring Butterfly

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Re: BPDm crying, wanting me to enmesh, what am I doing wrong? What do I do?
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2017, 07:41:14 PM »
:hug: you did good.
∑ Every interaction w/ PD persons results in damage-plan accordingly, make time to heal
∑ Individuation is one key to emotional freedom
∑ It's foolish to expect of others what they have no capacity to give
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