If you give a mouse a cookie (or a PD parent a "reason")

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Zebrastriped

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Re: If you give a mouse a cookie (or a PD parent a "reason")
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2017, 10:00:20 AM »
Now, all those cats at Womaninterrupted's make sense.  No mice there.

Seriously, though, my Dad recently mentioned that my uBPDmom spoke of a scenario to explain my abrupt and permanent departure from their home a few decades ago.  It was very far from my recollections of events.  I told dad if it helped her sleep at night, she was welcome to her version.  I had no interest in digging up the past.  Seeing all the angst here you all are having trying to address the past with your parents makes me more confident of my choice to leave the dead elephant in the room well buried.

And just so I never have to discuss it, I have installed a button on my phone to hit so my ringtone will go off and I can pretend to answer and have a conversation.  Which I thought was a little over the top, but having a flight plan does not look so extreme after reading all your posts.  I don't want my conversations with the parents to go past "how many potatoes?".  I commend everyone's bravery in facing this pain and sharing with others.

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bopper

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Re: If you give a mouse a cookie (or a PD parent a "reason")
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2017, 12:41:24 PM »
Imagine you are talking to a paralyzed person...

"I didn't like how you won't walk with me".
"I am walking".
" No you are not...to walk you have to move your legs and stand on them."
"I don't know what you want, I move around"

The PDer is incapable of changing and incapable of understanding.

Instead of getting him to change, you have change how you deal with him.  He can't treat you decently? Then instead of trying to get him to change, stay away from people who don't treat you decently.   You have to protect you.
You can decide if this is all the time, or can you stand holiday visits, or occasional visits. But you have the choice.
Just because they are incapable of loving you, doesn't mean that you are unlovable.
Anything makes the false self appear real is supply.

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carrots

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Re: If you give a mouse a cookie (or a PD parent a "reason")
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2017, 11:22:37 PM »
Thanks for posting this all4peace. The answers you got are helpful for me, since I've been wondering what to do with an email from enF in the past little while too.
Just today my T said that F has an emotional blockage and I can explain all I want but F will never understand. M and F have always - this started in my childhood! - attempted to show that they weren't understanding me because my explanation was lacking. I grew up thinking I was stupid and had a bad way with words. It's actually had a really bad effect on me because I second-guess myself all the time and obsess over my written and spoken communication trying to perfect it to make sure there isn't the slightest room for misunderstanding. So T said that the problem is F and M - they don't want to understand and they've been blaming me since I was a child. It's a really nasty version of DARVO. M is actually lying low atm.

all4peace, I'm sorry for what you went through as a child and all the denial you're dealing with now too. You've been going through so much recently, but I suspect that is because you are ready to atm and that you are really moving forward in your healing from foggy FOO.  :applause:

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all4peace

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Re: If you give a mouse a cookie (or a PD parent a "reason")
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2017, 12:13:19 PM »
all4peace - just weighing in some thoughts from my own experiences with similar circumstances... to me this is possibly strategic and targeted behaviors by your parents to regain the one up position in the relationship with you where you are required time and again to explain and reexplain and justify your position/boundaries/healthy responses to abusive behaviors.  Making you do that weakens your position and dilutes the clarity of your true and honest messages to your father and mother.
I am nervous about why there is such a frantic vibe to it all at this time.

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My T gave me the best advice with something like this saying... say what you need to say, one time, and then move on. There is no need whatsoever to repeat yourself. :yes: You have graciously told your father what the issues are from your perspective. He can act on that information or not and adjust his behaviors and make amends accordingly. His choice.
I agree. I'm not into repeating myself. I may actually let him see how horribly upsetting that scenario was, one last chance to actually acknowledge I have feelings, or I may simply tell him that actually, upon further reflection, I cannot explain it more clearly.

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From this exchange you can move forward with your life and live out  - as Spring Butterfly so wisely suggests - the person you are right now, today in relationship with them. You do not need to tell your father that if he ever raises his voice to you and verbally abuses you again you will do.... whatever it is you will do. You do not need to even respond to your mother's invalidating and insulting text... let's all just be careful and kind to each other...  :barfy: you are already and kind and considerate person and you know that about yourself so there is no need to respond unless you want to. The next time your mom opens her mouth and a big fat lie comes out you may choose to call her on it... and the next time... and the next time.. and you know what? She can either stop lying or deal with it if that is what you need/choose to do. You get to be 100% you in the relationship and you do not have to give a single solitary inch of yourself over to people who have treated your loving and tender soul with such selfish and callous regard!
I think I have some things I will say to my M. I know they will not be heard or understood. I am changing the rules of the game, and it may be necessary for the adult me to stand up and say what I need to say. Being silenced and shut down was a huge part of my childhood, and then my married life next to ILs. I will talk it over with T, but it feels possibly vital for me to say some very basic things to M and let her know that I'm no longer a flinching child.

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The problem may be... they don't get to define the problem any longer or impose the solution and stack it on your back as they once did. Here all4peace... carry our crap around for us so that a we are not uncomfortable. Unnn Uh! No thank you! They don't get to smash into your heart and soul and life and do and say as they please and plead confusion and convenient amnesia.
So insightful! This would be the basis of my response--handing it all back to them to carry, where it belongs.

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A father screams at his adult daughter to the point of her pleading with him to stop and then gives her the ST and when later confronted with this abusive behavior his response is audacious and shameless as he tells her she should've gotten over it more quickly.  :aaauuugh:

He misses your "friendship"? He is not your friend he is your father. If he doesn't know how to act like a father... and clearly he does not... then he needs to do what other people do... get some help asap and figure himself and his character issues that are harming his loved ones out.
It's amazing how deep these messages go. The first time I read it, I felt a glow of warmth that he missed our "friendship." And then I read it again, and again, and it started to look quite different.

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It is only because you have chosen to forgive terrible abuse, that continues in unrepentant ways I might add, that you have a relationship with them of any kind and that my dear is a privilege. They can show some regard and appreciation and respect or not and you get to decide what level of relationship you have with them based upon how they choose to conduct themselves.

You have broken free all4peace. They have no hold on you and they have a relationship with you and your family because you graciously allow that. You do not owe them any further attention or explanation. Not one tiny bit! :hug:
This would also be the basis of my response: Here's the very basic human behavior I expect from you, and if you are able to do that I will also. My priorities in life are things other than being a dutiful daughter, and that is where my energy will be focused. If you want help, please get it. I will not be "getting help" with you since everything I have said to you my entire life has been ignored, so I see no purpose in repeating that dynamic in front of a paid observer.

I would respond NOT to try to JADE one more time. I would respond to let them know there are new rules for engagement, their crap is their crap, my focus in life is elsewhere, and they should certainly get help if that's what they feel they need. If they want to engage nicely, then I'm still willing (barely).

Bloomie, can I just thank you for the anger I feel coming from your post? I think you know how much I have long appreciated your generous, kind and gentle guidance on this forum, for me and so many others. And so it means a lot to me to feel anger on my behalf. I have very rarely experienced that, and even now I'm protecting my parents FROM DH's anger towards them. Thank you for caring enough to feel anger. I know there are so many PD parents I read about on here that make me want to cry tears of rage for the ways they have treated their children.

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all4peace

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Re: If you give a mouse a cookie (or a PD parent a "reason")
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2017, 12:19:50 PM »
A4P: so often I think you're my sister-compatriot.  Your experiences are so similar to mine: that bland parental denial, then their seeming incomprehension, followed by callous disregard and expressed displeasure, coupled with visible impatience and obvious anger that their self-entitled "right to say and do whatever" without repercussion or whisper of accountability.  I've faced this same scenario, that same "we need to talk; but we won't talk for real" dynamic, that concludes with a stern lecture of "you don't have the right to have issues" and "I'm sick of your garbage (read: "issues"); you're crazy, and you better stop this right NOW".  I tell you, this type of situation, where "the cat's out of the bag", my issues politely expressed and so completely swept-away as to render me "person-less", this is what compelled me to finally chose to be NC rather than endure more Alice in Wonderland fantasy that this dysfunctional family dynamic, me as constant SG dutiful daughter servile non-person, was somehow to be defended as obligatory family duty to remain abused, rather than disabused (literally) and free.

At this point, how can you have a conversation with your parents beyond, "pass the potatoes" and "nice day today"?
Your parents make me sooooo angry. And I believe yours are way more overt than mine. Mine are still trying to speak politely. It's one reason I opted for written communication--it keeps it all calm, because I know there is a lot of rage bubbling beneath the surface and I don't feel able to deal with their rage right now.

Really, my enF has put up with SO much abuse that I'm guessing he thinks I'm being a big baby to feel upset for more than a couple hours, and to not totally accept a near ST for 1+ years. But, I keep reminding myself that he gets to choose his level of abuse tolerance in his life, and I get to choose it in mine. He doesn't have to agree with mine, nor me with his. Besides, it seems my body is making the decisions for me these days since my mind was WAY too tolerant.

One difference in our situation is that you have a horrid S, and I have siblings I truly love. What efforts I make, I make mainly for them, but even that may become intolerable. This is out of the norm for her, but S suggested I do therapy with our M!!  :aaauuugh:  She wants the family to be able to get together comfortably when she comes for her annual visit. We had a somewhat upsetting conversation about that, and it makes me realize she's still more in the FOG than I realized, or just struggling to accept things right now. I plan to drop the topic with her and just do what I need to do for myself and my FOC.

I would be happy to be your sister-compatriot! It's a sad sisterhood but an empowered one. I appreciate the incredible amount of help you give on this forum without seeking help for yourself. :bighug:

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all4peace

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Re: If you give a mouse a cookie (or a PD parent a "reason")
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2017, 12:30:37 PM »
WI--thanks for the great visual picture :) No matter what we call it--cutting ties, snipping energetic bonds, severing unhealthy soul connections, or not feeding the mice--it's all related, isn't it?

If I respond, and I think I probably will, I will not enter an endless back-and-forth debate. I will say what I have to say. If they want to shove their garbage down my throat or try to force me into their view of themselves or their view of me, I won't engage. I've raised kids. I'm very good at bland disengagement when someone isn't being reasonable.

zebrastriped, that sounds like such a healthy attitude! I used to be SO TIED to people admitting the "truth" and so upset when they didn't. I'm developing what I hope is a healthy detachment to how other people see their relationship with me. As you say, if it helps them sleep at night...

Can you explain more about your ringtone? I can't quite understand how it functions but it sounds hilarious and ingenious!

bopper, I definitely will not try to explain WHY things are the way they are. All I have to say at this point is "Here's your load, you can have it back now, get help carrying it if you want, I've got other more important loads to carry."

And thank you for the reminder. My time with my parents is extremely limited at this point due to exactly what you say. I no longer can spend time with people who make me feel terrible or sick with dread.

carrots, I'm glad this is helping you! I'm so sorry that you took the blame for "not explaining well enough" as a child. I went through this with PD ILs, feeling if I could just say it one more time, or one more different way, THEN they would understand. I finally came to understand that this was never going to happen, that sometimes people don't understand because they cannot or will not, and maybe it's time for me to stop trying and just accept that.

I can assure you, carrots, that you speak very clearly and are quite easy to understand :)

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carrots

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Re: If you give a mouse a cookie (or a PD parent a "reason")
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2017, 07:32:05 PM »
I can assure you, carrots, that you speak very clearly and are quite easy to understand :)

Thank you all4peace! I'm still at a stage where being reassured on this type of thing is helpful.

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daughter

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Re: If you give a mouse a cookie (or a PD parent a "reason")
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2017, 08:16:44 PM »
A4P: I still need plenty of help myself, LOL.  Our oldest DS is spending today with his grandparents, so expecting a difficult evening tonight when he gets home.