T says "They are unsafe and ineligible for reconciliation"

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all4peace

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T says "They are unsafe and ineligible for reconciliation"
« on: December 30, 2017, 10:48:13 PM »
I have known for so very long, on some level, that my childhood was abusive. Now that I have taken some time to spell it out to my T, as much as I can remember, he has told me that my parents were abusive in every category possible, both actively and passively. The more I share, the more comes back and the more connections I am making. It's strange, as these are things I have always known, but now they are leaping into my mind, saying "pay attention!" and "this matters!" and "do you see the connection?!" And so I've brought those to T also, laid them out, and asked him to validate what I have long known on a body level.

The one category of abuse that used to be vague, felt at a body level, has been verified by T.

And my uNBPDm sent her own "Let's all be nicer and get together soon" bs letter recently.

With this last bit of horror uncovered, my gentle T who almost never "tells" me anything or "suggests" anything but rather kindly lets me find my own path, simply said as I struggled with how to move forward with my parents: "They are not safe. They are ineligible for reconciliation or a relationship with you at this time and here is how you can tell them that." And then gave me incredibly clear-cut and forcible words that would let them know I am standing in my adult shoes and will tolerate no more.

It is exhilarating and terrifying, validating and doubt-inducing. It is so confusing. I feel like I am on the edge of a precipice. I've been growing, but this is a far bigger step than I have ever taken before, and I am scared.

I am used to my parents, but if I were watching a friend go through this, I would tell them the same thing, in no uncertain terms. I am thankful for many things today, including the incredible advice and support of you on this forum. Thank you! No matter what else is going on, I know I have a place I can come to find support and understanding.  :grouphug:

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overitall

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Re: T says "They are unsafe and ineligible for reconciliation"
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2017, 11:26:11 PM »
Allpeace, I'm so glad you have a great therapist....I also had a pretty horrific childhood and basically "stuffed" a lot of what went on in my family....after allowing my parents to continue their behaviors in my marriage and with my children, I started pulling back....when I got remarried to a wonderfully patient, astute, educated man, he gently pointed out that the behaviors in my FOO were definitely NOT healthy, NOT normal, and NOT my fault.....he listened, he didn't judge, he emphasized, and it made a TON of difference in my life....I still didn't have a name for what was wrong in my family.....

I began graduate school and in the course of my studies, I learned about PDs....I literally almost fainted....my mother has every single "marker" for BPD and my father for NPD....studying about PD's was literally a textbook version of my childhood.....through my studies, I learned that PD's rarely improve; rarely accept ANY responsibility for their actions/behaviors; and rarely respond to any attempts to attend therapy or family counseling.  My older sibling GC is not a PD, just a very difficult, bossy, know-it-all person....my other sibling is most likely BPD and has progressively deteriorated over the past 20 years and it starting to repeat the same behaviors of my uBPDm.

After an entire lifetime of abuse, I went NC....I knew there was no other way....I didn't want my children to grow up involved in storm of PD's...I was scared, too....BUT, I can tell you, it was, by far, the BEST decision I ever made in my life....it has been over 6 years now, and my life is so much happier, more freedom, less stress, less worry, less ruminating over and over and over....

It WILL get better....you will grow and bloom and flourish....you really will...i promise :yeahthat:

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MIB

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Re: T says "They are unsafe and ineligible for reconciliation"
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2017, 12:04:06 AM »
Overitall, thank you for your reply - I am new in my journey OOTF and your post was very comforting and inspiring. I really appreciate it.

All4peace, I am glad that your T gave you that kind of direction (I personally like a T that does), and I wish you all the best on moving forward with this. It's hard and a bit scary and know that in my mind I'm giving you a big, supportive hug. :bighug:

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practical

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Re: T says "They are unsafe and ineligible for reconciliation"
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2017, 09:28:29 AM »
It is exhilarating and terrifying, validating and doubt-inducing. It is so confusing. I feel like I am on the edge of a precipice. I've been growing, but this is a far bigger step than I have ever taken before, and I am scared.
You have the strength, I'm positive of it. You have worked so incredibly hard at your healing, at understanding what happened, at understanding yourself, all of this will help you take this step. While the single steps in the past might have been smaller, your persistence in light of what you faced shows your enormous strength, because you could also have chosen to put your head back in the sand at any point and you never did. You are an inspiration. :hug:
If Im not towards myself, who is towards myself? And when Im only towards myself, what am I? And if not now, when? (Rabbi Hillel)

"I can forgive, but I cannot afford to forget." (Moglow)

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zephyrblue

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Re: T says "They are unsafe and ineligible for reconciliation"
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2017, 10:05:33 AM »
 :bighug: to you, all4peace.  I've lurked here for a while and have read about some of your journey.  Your compassion and resilience is impressive.  You rock!

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Spring Butterfly

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Re: T says "They are unsafe and ineligible for reconciliation"
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2017, 10:10:52 AM »
How incredibly validating and freeing. You really have given this your absolute best shot from all angles and tried everything, you're very best, to make it work. Wishing you much peace and healing.
Every interaction w/ PD persons results in damage-plan accordingly, make time to heal
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all4peace

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Re: T says "They are unsafe and ineligible for reconciliation"
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2017, 09:40:20 PM »
overitall, I'm sorry for what you have suffered and am glad for you that you found your way out! The joy in your voice is obvious :)

MIB, I was so thankful for that clear-cut statement also. I'm guessing he would know my inclination to head right back into unsafe territory, so he was clearly spelling it out for me. Because he hasn't done that in the past, it felt like a huge gift.

practical, thank you so much! I am still scared. This is possibly going to blow the family apart, or at least it feels that way. There's a saying along the lines of "Mental health is a commitment to reality at all costs." This is my unspoken way of living in the world, because I don't know any other way, but sometimes it is incredibly costly. I worry about my relationship with my siblings, and how my parents might try to impact my kids.

zephyrblue, thank you for your kind words! I know I'll be fighting some battles as this unfolds, in trying to not get swallowed up in bitterness and hate.

spring butterfly, it is validating and freeing. And yet I will be the one living with the actual fall-out, not my T. It's amazing how long and hard we can try to work through all this, examining from 1000 different angles, trying for years to get around it, and KNOW there is no other way, and still feel scared before taking the next step. I haven't sent my communication yet but will tomorrow (don't want to impact our FOC's holiday time). Ugh.

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echo_

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Re: T says "They are unsafe and ineligible for reconciliation"
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2018, 12:10:28 AM »
It's encouraging to hear how empowered and confident your post is, also that you have a T who helped empower you in making this decision. It's clear that a weight has been lifted and although I don't know a lot about your backstory and I'm still pretty new to this forum too I am happy for you and also wishing you peace and happiness now and in the future. All the best  :yourock:

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practical

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Re: T says "They are unsafe and ineligible for reconciliation"
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2018, 08:46:46 AM »
"Mental health is a commitment to reality at all costs."
I like this, and it shows you value yourself, are taking care of yourself. Neither easy accomplishments when you come from an abusive background.

This is possibly going to blow the family apart, or at least it feels that way. There's a saying along the lines of "Mental health is a commitment to reality at all costs." This is my unspoken way of living in the world, because I don't know any other way, but sometimes it is incredibly costly. I worry about my relationship with my siblings, and how my parents might try to impact my kids.
It might unsettle the family for some time, and then they also might come back together. DH went NC with his M for a couple of years quite some time ago, and it was an issue for his siblings and created tensions. MIL kept coming up in conversations, when he reestablished contact the same was true, now somehow we are VLC and it is okay, he and his siblings don't even talk about her anymore most of the time, despite one of them taking care of her (another SG besides DH). So, what I'm trying to tell you, even if you severely rock the boat right now, and your siblings might be more than unhappy with you right now, this might change over time. DH's relationship with his siblings is actually better now, as it is about them, the connections they have as adults with each other, and not about their M and her latest crazy. As for your kids, hopefully they have learned enough about boundaries by seeing you. I hope it all works out with minimal turmoil for you and your family.
:grouphug:
If Im not towards myself, who is towards myself? And when Im only towards myself, what am I? And if not now, when? (Rabbi Hillel)

"I can forgive, but I cannot afford to forget." (Moglow)

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zephyrblue

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Re: T says "They are unsafe and ineligible for reconciliation"
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2018, 11:07:46 AM »
even if you severely rock the boat right now, and your siblings might be more than unhappy with you right now, this might change over time. DH's relationship with his siblings is actually better now, as it is about them, the connections they have as adults with each other, and not about their M and her latest crazy.

Thank you for this.  I'll briefly hijack this thread: I'm estranged from my remaining FOO. Things went off the rails after uPDfather died a few years ago. enPD?sis and enPD?mom have quite the manipulative, codependent dance going.  They're pissed that I dropped the rope and have stayed away.  A few months ago enSis asked via email why I'm so distant, saying they don't understand what they could have done for me to stay away.  Although I didn't take the bait, I did say that I'm open to email and speaking on the phone.  Haven't heard a peep since. 

It hurts.  Quiet is better than chaos, but it still hurts.  I'm mourning how broken my FOO is.

Thank you, practical, for offering some hope that things might improve in the future. I don't expect things to ever be normal and healthy.  But contact without pain might be possible.

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daughter

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Re: T says "They are unsafe and ineligible for reconciliation"
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2018, 12:11:26 PM »
Coming late to the discussion, but want to echo everyone's sentiments, and note that this is a wise therapist's advice.

I had a similar epiphany years ago, during the therapy-period immediately after our house-move which triggered my first-ever NC period of several months.  The therapist, having listened to my recollections of episodes concerning my parents, having responded with her calm "no, that's not normal" statements, finally addressed me with a profound revelation: your parents are narcissists, high-functioning sociopaths; they are harming towards you, it's okay to be estranged from them.  I was stunned, even while 95% OOTF, to be advised it was best to stay away from my parents, that I wasn't obligated to abide and obey and appease them to remain in their semi-good graces.  However, I did re-engage, despite that sound advice, for another decade of so-called Medium Chill and Lessened Contact (all holidays, birthdays, two dinners/month, three calls/week, etc), to discover, to my dismay, that the initial "honeymoon period" of reconciliation soon devolved into a darker more blatant mode of furtive malevolence, obvious disrespect, and blatant disdain that became more and more difficult to politely ignore, to blandly tolerate, until we (me and DH) reached that NC decision breaking-point.  Lesson learned: MC/LC isn't necessarily adequate, not necessarily wise, sometimes imprudent.  Have you reached that certain breaking-point yourself?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 12:13:31 PM by daughter »

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all4peace

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Re: T says "They are unsafe and ineligible for reconciliation"
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2018, 12:16:34 PM »
Coming late to the discussion, but want to echo everyone's sentiments, and note that this is a wise therapist's advice.

I had a similar epiphany years ago, during the therapy-period immediately after our house-move which triggered my first-ever NC period of several months.  The therapist, having listened to my recollections of episodes concerning my parents, having responded with her calm "no, that's not normal" statements, finally addressed me with a profound revelation: your parents are narcissists, high-functioning sociopaths; they are harming towards you, it's okay to be estranged from them.  I was stunned, even while 95% OOTF, to be advised it was best to stay away from my parents, that I wasn't obligated to abide and obey and appease them to remain in their semi-good graces.  However, I did re-engage, despite that sound advice, for another decade of so-called Medium Chill and Lessened Contact (all holidays, birthdays, two dinners/month, three calls/week, etc), to discover, to my dismay, that the initial "honeymoon period" of reconciliation soon devolved into a darker more blatant mode of furtive malevolence, obvious disrespect, and blatant disdain that became more and more difficult to politely ignore, to blandly tolerate, until we (me and DH) reached that NC decision breaking-point.  Lesson learned: MC/LC isn't necessarily adequate, not necessarily wise, sometimes imprudent. Have you reached that certain breaking-point yourself?
I'm preparing for war. I just need to get counsel before I decide my next step. I just posted about my uNBPDm's response in a thread called "And the mask comes off"

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all4peace

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Re: T says "They are unsafe and ineligible for reconciliation"
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2018, 03:14:59 PM »
Well, it seems enF doesn't need to be forgiven.
We already forgave him, and he was thankful for that.
He's sorry for childhood, but clearly my behavior shows I haven't forgiven him.
"Happy" relationships cannot come out of someone setting terms and parameters!!!
He has always been friendly to me, always (those "not speaking" episodes didn't happen, although in the past he didn't deny it when I said that) and my requesting he speak to me in public (as my "only" request) means that's all I want from him, not even a real relationship and have already decided against any real relationship.
Forgiveness=reconciliation=relationship returning to what it used to be.
Me trying to speak my truth as his daughter, really making myself vulnerable to try to reach some "fatherly" part of him were "unnecessary comments" that
proved my lack of forgiveness.
This is really just way too involved, and who could have imagined a conversation about relationships would be sooooo complicated?! (oops, guess forgive and forget was the easier route)

I am exhausted by this. My chest is tight and I just want it to stop. I don't know who my parents think I am, but for sure I am not someone with memory, feelings, pain, wishes, dreams. For the first time since receiving one of these responses, I don't feel angry. DH was furious!!! But I just feel tired and sad. I thought I had a better relationship with my dad than this, but clearly it didn't have a foundation that could withstand pretty much anything. In this case, it couldn't withstand me asking him to not discuss my personal business with the ILs. Something he didn't plan to do but mightily resented being asked to not to. Because apparently in his world that is a deal breaker.

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daughterofbpd

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Re: T says "They are unsafe and ineligible for reconciliation"
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2018, 04:43:03 PM »
"Happy" relationships cannot come out of someone setting terms and parameters!!!
(aka boundaries)
So basically, he lives in a world where they can treat you however they want and you'd better like it. I'm so sorry, all4peace. It sounds like time for NC, even if its not a permanent NC. Good luck and take care. You deserve better.
 :bighug:
How starved you must have been that my heart became a meal for your ego
~ Amanda Torroni

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louisebt

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Re: T says "They are unsafe and ineligible for reconciliation"
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2018, 04:44:08 PM »
Watch out for the tiredness all4peace. Getting worn down can weaken your resolve on boundaries and start pulling you back in the fog and crazy making. Remember PD's make something very straightforward (i'm limiting my relationship with you because you treat me like crap) into something very complex.



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carrots

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Re: T says "They are unsafe and ineligible for reconciliation"
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2018, 04:44:35 PM »
I see the progress you're making along with all those painful realizations. There's similar stuff going on in my head, but my brain blocks when I try to express it out loud or written. I empathise with you all4peace.

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Spring Butterfly

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Re: T says "They are unsafe and ineligible for reconciliation"
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2018, 07:10:52 PM »
:grouphug: no words . . .
Every interaction w/ PD persons results in damage-plan accordingly, make time to heal
Individuation is one key to emotional freedom
It's foolish to expect of others what they have no capacity to give
my Empowered Growth blog

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practical

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Re: T says "They are unsafe and ineligible for reconciliation"
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2018, 10:05:52 PM »
Forgiveness=reconciliation=relationship returning to what it used to be.
...
 I don't know who my parents think I am, but for sure I am not someone with memory, feelings, pain, wishes, dreams.
Those are two key realizations and very sad and painful ones.

For the first time since receiving one of these responses, I don't feel angry. DH was furious!!! But I just feel tired and sad.
The tired sadness was what preceded acceptance for me, acceptance that there was nothing to fight for, explain or make right, because for those things there had to be "something" and the so called relationship was a mirage, a Nothing.
:grouphug:
If Im not towards myself, who is towards myself? And when Im only towards myself, what am I? And if not now, when? (Rabbi Hillel)

"I can forgive, but I cannot afford to forget." (Moglow)

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zephyrblue

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Re: T says "They are unsafe and ineligible for reconciliation"
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2018, 11:14:15 PM »
all4peace, I'm so sorry.  You deserve so much better.   :bighug:

The tired sadness was what preceded acceptance for me

Yes, I felt this when I was finally done with my first long-term relationship (effectively a marriage) of 13 years.  I was done.  I didn't care enough to fight.  I just wanted out.

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sandpiper

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Re: T says "They are unsafe and ineligible for reconciliation"
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2018, 04:13:06 AM »
Sending you love, and hugs, AllForPeace.
I remember when I came to this point with my therapist. She wasn't one to interfere & would guide me to find my own inner wisdom. But one day, having seen me head back into my FOO for another dose of it, she said 'Piper, tell me...if you were not related to these people, how much time would you want to spend with them?'
Me, without hesitation: 'None. In fact I would cross the street to get away from them if I saw them coming.'
And there it was.
The reality that I was only staying in that relationship because of FOG.
She then said that she was stepping outside of what she would normally say to a client & revealed that her own family were so toxic that she had crossed the planet and started a new life to get away from them and she had no regrets about this.
That happened many years ago & while facing that reality was hard, and it hurt for a long time, dealing with that, I am so very, very grateful that she said it.
 :bighug: :bighug: :bighug: