Saying "NO" to a visit

[HeadAboveWater]

SiL wants to visit my home for a long weekend. The answer is no. The question is how to deliver this answer and stick to our boundaries.

I've written about SiL before here: http://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=72606.0. In short, her visits require my FOC to chauffeur, clean, grocery shop, cook, plan the day, play tour guide, run the schedule, all without any breaks. Husband and I have to take time off of work to do the picking up and dropping off at the airport, and we end up spending a great deal of money on food and transportation during these visits. There's also usually some sort of minor emergency created during these weekends -- flooding the bathroom with the shower; stepping on the cat; forgetting to bring critical medication; trying to get through airport security with a bag full of liquid makeup, etc. Refusing to cater to SiL in the manner in which she expects results in the uPD parents in-law calling the house to guilt trip and rage that we are not caring for their adult child. So, why spend time, money, and energy making ourselves miserable in order to appease the uPD parents in-law and give SiL a nearly free vacation? Even the dog ends up unhappy when she's here.

SiL wrote to my husband a couple of months ago to ask if she could visit. Husband, who handles all communication with his family, declined to host but said it was because we "had a lot going on at the moment." One of the things he cited was travel. Sure enough, he's been home fewer than 24 hours from his last scheduled trip, and she's now texting asking when she can book a ticket to come visit. She seems to think she's entitled to semi-annual visits, but after three of these adventures we don't want to host ever again.

A typical person would not invite herself for a visit in the first place. A typical person would also accept hints or statements like "We'll let you know when it's a good time" without pushing back. The brutally honest response is "We don't enjoy our visits together, so we don't want to have them," but I don't think that's appropriate. While I might some day feel comfortable saying that to the parents in-law, I'm not sure of SiL's capabilities and the level to which she can be held accountable for her behavior because her disability is a confounding factor.

So what is a good way to turn down the visit? Do we just need to say "No, we can't host you" without explanation? When the parents in-law call to try to wear us down, do we just repeat "No, we can't host her"? I'm mindful that we want to give a firm answer that holds our boundary on not hosting. I'm also mindful that we don't want to get involved in JADE-ing or a circular conversation. And I really don't want husband's no to become a yes under pressure from his family, thus delivering the intermittent reinforcement they seem to thrive on. 

[StayWithMe]

This SIL is your husband's sister?

You don't need a certified excuse to deny someone ldoging or vacation in your home.  The closer that I am to that person the more detailed I am.  But since this siter seems to be a problem guest, "we have a lot on," is by scoiety standards adequate.

Why do you worry that she might allowed back your home?  And if even she were, you could give her the remote to your TV and go about business.  Is someone paying you to be her tour guide?

If she does manage to wrench an invite from your husband, then load up on stuff that you need to do while she's there.  And if your husbad asks why are you not giving his sister enough attention, act as if nothing coule be further from the truth.

Sometimes people only get the message through nonverbal communication.  If yu are able to make her next so unpleasant, you probably won't have this porblem again.

As far as how your in laws might feel about it, act as if you have no idea what they are talking about.  They'll stop talking about it.

[HeadAboveWater]

Yes, this is my husband's sister.

Her approach and her parents' approach is to persist in asking. Last spring we kept putting her visit off. This led to a month's worth of text messages to my husband until he finally buckled and just scheduled the visit. We're in the middle of this cycle right now. The first round of communication was "No, you may not visit right now," so now my husband is receiving the barrage of texts asking when in the future the visit could be scheduled. He and I have agreed that we are not obligated to host and that there is no way that we can host without feeling really unhappy about it, so we have decided together to put an end to the visits. The question is just how to say so to SiL.

I worry because my husband has not been able to say "no" to his family in the past. It's gone so far that they have repeatedly shown up in our city, uninvited, for Christmas. (We won't see them on Christmas day, and we make a point to have a separate celebration in their city at another time.) We plan on ending this "tradition" this year by leaving the country because my husband can't imagine a way of confronting them, but he doesn't want to continue in this way either. While he doesn't appreciate the way his family has treated him over the years, he does still want their approval. Though an adult in his 40's, they still periodically punish him with the silent treatment, and it really gets under his skin every time. He's not ready to drop the rope. 

Your point about non-verbal communication is well taken. In the past, I was very much a people pleaser -- both by disposition and conditioning -- so I took it upon myself to make PD family members comfortable. Through a combination of instinct and the learning I've been doing recently, I'm starting to reverse that.   

[StayWithMe]

Your point about non-verbal communication is well taken. In the past, I was very much a people pleaser -- both by disposition and conditioning -- so I took it upon myself to make PD family members comfortable. Through a combination of instinct and the learning I've been doing recently, I'm starting to reverse that.   

I used to be that way too.  I always wanted to gain agreement before I did anything.  I know now that that opens you up to ridicule.

I have also learned that simply telling someone "no" can also be dangerous.  I have learned "to shut things down" as soon as possible.

[FromTheSwamp]

I hate it when people don't accept the normal polite ways of putting someone off.  But that's a personality disorder for you. 

Maybe if you get all friendly about it?  Along the lines of, we'd really love to have you here soon, but we are just so over-scheduled right now, there's no way we'd be able to have a proper visit.  We just wouldn't feel right about leaving you alone all day, day after day. 

Keep repeating some version of "We can't at the moment." 

[Thru the Rain]

I feel for you! I have a very hard time saying No to my family when they want to visit.

We eventually repurposed our spare bedroom and now there's no where for anyone to stay.

The last time my parents came to visit, we had no room for them. We paid for a hotel room for them. My brother paid for a rental car for them.

From their reaction, you would think we had served up dog poop on a plate.

And they are difficult guests too.
- M stays up all night and sleeps all day. Dad gets up at the very first ray of sunrise.
- Dad wants to go do things (i.e. be chauffered around and entertained) but he gets tired after 30 minutes and we have to go home. Then he's boooooooooored.
- Mom is pretty anti-social and doesn't want to go anywhere at all ever.
- They refuse to eat at meal times, then want food to magically appear at odd times. They are both picky, picky eaters - but not the same picky. They won't eat the same food.
- I live in a dry climate and its absolutely required to drink lots of water. Neither of them will drink enough water. My Dad tries and fails. My Mom flat out refuses - mostly because she won't be told what to do. As a result, they get sick after a few days. We've had multiple trips to the emergency room to get my Mom re-hydrated. Maddening!

Sorry to go on a rant - and I could keep going on and on - but I understand just how awful and exhausting house-guests like these can be.

They complain that they can't come visit any more because I don't have a guest room. I tell them they CHOOSE not to visit - they could stay at any number of nearby hotels. They don't like to hear that either.

So I don't have great advice - other than stop having room for guests. 

Or I like the suggestion of just handing her the remote and going about your day. My SIL does this to my parents. In fact she'll say "good you're here - you can watch the kids" and then she will literally LEAVE THE STATE and not come back until my parents are about to go home. 

[biggerfish]

I've been following this thread because I have an upcoming visit from BIL. I already hinted once to him that I'm not up for it, and now he has explicitly invited himself. I hedged, and didn't commit to anything. But he's not a bad guest (just a slightly annoying personality) and I get reminded of this fact by reading everything here about truly bad guests.

Instead, this thread has made me realize that it's about one particular issue with him that I have not addressed because he gets upset so easily. I need to talk to him on the phone, and then see how I feel, before agreeing to him coming. I can't talk about the issue here because it would give away too much identifying information.

But back to this thread: What I find noteworthy is how exhausting people are, and how important it is for us to reflect before agreeing to anything. We need to know what is most important to us. Is it to please? Is it to seem like a nice person? Is it to have peace? I know for me, I worry about seeming selfish, or being accused of misleading him. I remind myself today of these things:

• I'm allowed to change my mind
• I'm allowed to talk about my needs even if it upsets someone
• I'm allowed to consider my own needs first
• I'm allowed to say no
• I'm allowed to use my own style of saying "no" which is to be polite about
• I'm allowed to keep my reasons to myself

[HeadAboveWater]

• I'm allowed to change my mind
• I'm allowed to talk about my needs even if it upsets someone
• I'm allowed to consider my own needs first
• I'm allowed to say no
• I'm allowed to use my own style of saying "no" which is to be polite about
• I'm allowed to keep my reasons to myself

I really like this list, and I also like the phrase "I'm allowed to." Thank you for sharing it, Biggerfish. Sometimes it's something really simple, but I can frequently stand reminding about what non-disordered interaction looks like.

I'm afraid I have a bit of bad news. My husband and I were not on the same page as I had thought we were. In discussing the most recent text messages, he felt that his only choices were to agree to a visit this spring or delay the visit until the fall, when SiL typically attempts to visit town for a second time in the year. I suggested a different path, which is to give the message "We'll tell you when it's a good time," putting us in greater control of whether and when there is a visit. We at least laid some ground rules in the event that a visit does occur. We will not take hours of our time to pick up and drop off SiL from the airport. If she truly feels incapable of navigating to our home by taxi, airport shuttle, or train, then it's not appropriate for her to be traveling on her own. We're ok having that fight (again) with my husband's parents who once threw a two-day snit and threatened to cancel the trip or to chaperone it if we wouldn't serve as airport chauffeurs. We will not be making reservations at any expensive restaurants because we just don't enjoy them with her, and she doesn't seem to get much out of the plain, baked chicken or fish that she inevitably ends up ordering. We have also decided that we won't plan her activities. When she defaults to "I don't know. What do you want to do?" we won't so much as hand her the newspaper or make suggestions. We will say "Let us know when you've decided what you would like to do." If we awake on Saturday morning and she has not made a decision, I will simply set forth with my usual errands and chores, even if they require the use of the only household vehicle. I won't deviate from my schedule unless and until she has a plan for something that we can reasonably do as a family. Instead of waiting for her to clean up her messes (dishes, flooded bathroom) and then bailing her out when she doesn't, I'll hand her the cleaning supplies and walk away. But I'm still keeping my fingers crossed that it doesn't come down to having to enforce all of these new rules. Maybe, just maybe we can do things differently this time.     

[WomanInterrupted]

Rather than enforce all those rules/boundaries, I'd have a talk with DH about changing his mind - and being ALLOWED to change it.   

"Sis...you know...after further thought, it's just not a good time for us.  We'll let you know, but visiting right now, it's off the table.  We'll revisit it at another time."

WHAT is so damned important that she can't visit?

You're really busy - you know how life is.  Things and stuff.  Stuff with things.  Things with stuff.  Never a dull moment - anyway, we'll talk about it later.   

Or you're just swamped at work, never a dull moment at the funny farm, you know how life is, shit happens and stuff comes up and he doesn't want to bore her with the details...

ANY Medium Chill phrase that neutralizes the threat is on the table.   

In a few months - he can say the same thing.  It's still not a good time.  You've just got too much going on.

You never SAY what's going on, or she'll poke holes in your reasons or even more imperiously, tell you that you can deal with that LATER, AFTER her visit - or before - but she IS visiting.   

Nope.  It doesn't work like that.   It's presumptive and rude.

If she insists that she IS coming, DH can ask if she's picked a *hotel* and if she hasn't, he can send her a list of hotels she might like.

If she says she's staying at yours?

"I'm afraid that's just not possible - you can stay at a hotel or you can stay home.  Those are your options.  You're going to be responsible for your own transportation, lodging, food,  and entertainment.  We're barely going to see you - I told you, it's not a good time."   

Once he gets the idea across that she's going to have to pay her own way, she'll probably drop it.

But unfortunately, it'll probably keep happening - but it's easier to say, "NO" by phone than trying to adopt a whole bunch of rules and boundaries while she's in your home.

YOU can adhere to them, but I promise, if you hand her a bucket and a mop, she's probably going to blow a gasket because GUESTS aren't treated like this, anywhere!   

You can tell her she's not a guest, she's FAMILY - so start cleaning up her mess or she can leave.

She'll leave and be INSULTED and there will be lots and lots of unnecessary drama.   

Or she'll become a victim of your meanness, who is just too OVERCOME to do a thing but pretend to cry and create a lot of drama, while bringing up things that happened 20 years ago and may or may
not involve your DH - petty, stupid things.   

Or she'll simply smirk and put the bucket and mop down, then go park her butt on the couch and watch TV.

I don't know about you, but getting to the point where I want to order somebody out of my house *really* doesn't sit well with me.  I don't like the constant button-pushing - and she WILL push buttons if you try to have boundaries.

So...the best offense is defense.   

"It just doesn't work for us right now.  We'll discuss your visit later."

Your DH does NOT owe her any explanation beyond that.

You can't change HER - but you can change *yourselves.*

The first time you - or he - does this, it will seem like the hardest thing on earth that you've ever had to do.  *It's terrifying* - but if DH sticks to the Medium Chill script, IT WORKS!   

By the 2nd attempt - you'll probably find yourselves getting annoyed.

By the 3rd attempt - you'll really *see* what's going on and not only get annoyed, but wonder who the hell she thinks she is.   

You've GOT this, HeadAboveWater - and with a little luck, your DH will have it, too.

If not - YOU can always intervene and say, "I'm afraid that's just not possible.  This is no longer a discussion.  Don't bring it up again."

I'd rather be smeared as a bad guy than have my life turned upside-down by somebody who already doesn't like me and never will.

If I can't win - I just won't play the game.   

[Frankie14]

How bizarre a grown woman, I am presuming in her late 30's or early 40's if your DH is in his 40's is this obsessed with visiting you guys twice a year.  Makes no sense, what does she want?  Who visits someone uninvited and invites themselves and if the answer is no or not right now, Mommy and Daddy scold or ST their adult well grown son...

Sheesh..

Leave it to the PD's...they never.ever.ever. stop agitating, annoying, disregarding boundaries.

If I were you, I would leave when the sister came, not doing it again.  Bye.  But, that's me.  I am done and done with pleasing any PD's and whatever arguments arise from my No's, I am prepared to shut down. 

I am not the bigger person, I am not the nicer person, I am not a people pleaser, so let's begin the arguing, the silent treatment, whatever you got...eventually I went NC b/c even I got tired of fighting for MY right to be treated with any dignity or privacy my FOO.

It took me years to get to this point and I might not be 'cured' but this is where I am staying to keep PD's from hassling me and my FOC anymore.  I am in my late 40's now and if I don't want someone in my house, they are NOT coming in, no matter what tactics the PD's try to make me change my mind.

[HeadAboveWater]

Thanks, Frances, for your input. As I've mentioned before, it's easy to become acclimated to the abnormal behavior and stop questioning it.

I'm starting to come around on the idea of not being the "good guy." I'm realizing that even when I killed myself to please PDI's, they'd often be unhappy and gossip about me anyway. I've had numerous fallings out with my family on a grand scale, and it's not been the end of the world. My husband just isn't there yet, though. He's still in the precontemplative stage of change with regard to processing and acting on many of his feelings about his family. I haven't absented myself from visits yet because I've been trying to support him. Yet, the more I process my own "stuff" and see their behavior as not just annoying but abusive, the less patience I have for it. He's complained that he feels "in the middle" between me and his FOO, which has made me feel responsible for resolving the conflict by being present and being pleasant. More and more I see, though, that my responsibility is to myself, not to him and definitely not to his FOO.     

[HeadAboveWater]

Well, I have an update.

Husband and I settled on the messaging "We'll tell you when it's a good time." We agreed to a strategy of no further explanations or excuses around that statement. He then traveled to his hometown to see his FOO not too long ago, and his sister expectently dangled "Well, I guess you'll tell me when it's a good time." Husband reports grey rocking in response. (I'm so excited that, though he'd rather not use this site, he's talking to me about it and learning about the tools.)

Now, as of this morning, SiL is back to texting my husband asking if it's a good time yet. When he forwarded the message to me I just shrugged and sent back a "lol" to him. After some time away from my in-laws and some time spent working to heal from PD abuse, I'm not nearly as worked up as I was last spring. Don't get me wrong, I don't want this visit, nor do I plan to be an active participant if it does occur. I'm just ready to let my husband figure it out for himself and do what I need to do to stay happy and healthy.

[moglow]

Idea for SIL (): We'll *ask* you to come visit, when it's a good time. If we're not asking, it ain't a good time and it ain't gonna happen.

Geez. No manners, that one.

[WomanInterrupted]

I like Moglow's response, but I'd tart it up a bit:

"We will ask you to visit when we're able to host.  Until then, the topic is no longer open for discussion.  Please don't bring it up again."

And that's IT.  That's all I'd write, and if she does bring it up in texts or email, ignore her.   

If she asks while she's on the phone with him, I'd personally take a more hard-line approach:  "Sis, since you're badgering about it, and you're not able to respect the simple boundary I gave you, the answer is NO, you can't come.  Get the idea out of your head, because it's not going to happen."

Sometimes you just have to rip off the band aid and be incredibly blunt.   

[qcdlvl]

I'm starting to come around on the idea of not being the "good guy." I'm realizing that even when I killed myself to please PDI's, they'd often be unhappy and gossip about me anyway. I've had numerous fallings out with my family on a grand scale, and it's not been the end of the world. My husband just isn't there yet, though. He's still in the precontemplative stage of change with regard to processing and acting on many of his feelings about his family. I haven't absented myself from visits yet because I've been trying to support him. 

But this ensures that the path of least resistance for him is to invite your SIL over. They way I see it, if after all that's happened he still invites her over, it's his mess, his cleanup. Absenting yourself means he has to deal with her demands and/or tantrums - you're not cleaning up his mess. The path of least resistance might then be to not do it again. 

[Summer Sun]

We had some company the last two years we could not wait until they left.  I could write a book but much has been covered. 

there is no getting out of the relationship so this year, we are sooooo busy, it just doesn't work to host.  We flew to their state instead, visited on their turf, although we stayed in a hotel. 

A different house guest, another book, the GF of a relative, has been banned.  Yup.  Me and DH, we bad.  Relative is welcome, GF is not.  Deal with it.  We are not going to normalize rude, abusive behaviors.  The good news is they subsequently split up so maybe we set a good example with our boundary.

I feel for you.

Summer Sun

[Medowynd]

I have turned into the person that visitors don't want to cross.  I don't make a lot of statements, but my face is quite expressive.  I have learned to say no and not offer explanations.  It took a lot of practice and realizing that my boundaries and needs are just as important as the person pushing to visit or ask for other favors.

[Alwaystoblame]

Rather than enforce all those rules/boundaries, I'd have a talk with DH about changing his mind - and being ALLOWED to change it.   

"Sis...you know...after further thought, it's just not a good time for us.  We'll let you know, but visiting right now, it's off the table.  We'll revisit it at another time."

WHAT is so damned important that she can't visit?

You're really busy - you know how life is.  Things and stuff.  Stuff with things.  Things with stuff.  Never a dull moment - anyway, we'll talk about it later.   

Or you're just swamped at work, never a dull moment at the funny farm, you know how life is, shit happens and stuff comes up and he doesn't want to bore her with the details...

ANY Medium Chill phrase that neutralizes the threat is on the table.   

In a few months - he can say the same thing.  It's still not a good time.  You've just got too much going on.

You never SAY what's going on, or she'll poke holes in your reasons or even more imperiously, tell you that you can deal with that LATER, AFTER her visit - or before - but she IS visiting.   

Nope.  It doesn't work like that.   It's presumptive and rude.

If she insists that she IS coming, DH can ask if she's picked a *hotel* and if she hasn't, he can send her a list of hotels she might like.

If she says she's staying at yours?

"I'm afraid that's just not possible - you can stay at a hotel or you can stay home.  Those are your options.  You're going to be responsible for your own transportation, lodging, food,  and entertainment.  We're barely going to see you - I told you, it's not a good time."   

Once he gets the idea across that she's going to have to pay her own way, she'll probably drop it.

But unfortunately, it'll probably keep happening - but it's easier to say, "NO" by phone than trying to adopt a whole bunch of rules and boundaries while she's in your home.

YOU can adhere to them, but I promise, if you hand her a bucket and a mop, she's probably going to blow a gasket because GUESTS aren't treated like this, anywhere!   

You can tell her she's not a guest, she's FAMILY - so start cleaning up her mess or she can leave.

She'll leave and be INSULTED and there will be lots and lots of unnecessary drama.   

Or she'll become a victim of your meanness, who is just too OVERCOME to do a thing but pretend to cry and create a lot of drama, while bringing up things that happened 20 years ago and may or may
not involve your DH - petty, stupid things.   

Or she'll simply smirk and put the bucket and mop down, then go park her butt on the couch and watch TV.

I don't know about you, but getting to the point where I want to order somebody out of my house *really* doesn't sit well with me.  I don't like the constant button-pushing - and she WILL push buttons if you try to have boundaries.

So...the best offense is defense.   

"It just doesn't work for us right now.  We'll discuss your visit later."

Your DH does NOT owe her any explanation beyond that.

You can't change HER - but you can change *yourselves.*

The first time you - or he - does this, it will seem like the hardest thing on earth that you've ever had to do.  *It's terrifying* - but if DH sticks to the Medium Chill script, IT WORKS!   

By the 2nd attempt - you'll probably find yourselves getting annoyed.

By the 3rd attempt - you'll really *see* what's going on and not only get annoyed, but wonder who the hell she thinks she is.   

You've GOT this, HeadAboveWater - and with a little luck, your DH will have it, too.

If not - YOU can always intervene and say, "I'm afraid that's just not possible.  This is no longer a discussion.  Don't bring it up again."

I'd rather be smeared as a bad guy than have my life turned upside-down by somebody who already doesn't like me and never will.

If I can't win - I just won't play the game.   

[HeadAboveWater]

Well, my husband successfully put off the visit for a year by using the phrase "We'll tell you when it's a good time." Then his SiL mimicked their mother's tried and true technique of asking and re-asking until she got the answer she wanted. He's just home from dropping SiL at the airport, and we are Burnt Out.

Right now, my husband and I are in agreement that this arrangement is never happening again. But so many times I have typed "We agree..." on this forum only to find out later that sticking to our agreements is hard for him. So let me bind myself to an agreement that only I can break. If he can't stand up for us, I will find some way to dodge a visit with SiL, be it vacating the house or calling his family to deal with it head-on myself.

By way of reminding myself of what a disaster this weekend was, I'm going to journal the highlights here:

SiL will not take public transit on her own. Nor will she ride in taxis or rideshare vehicles. (She believes it's too dangerous, though she is nearly 40 and our city is safe.) But when told after her arrival that my husband was 40 minutes away from the airport due to a public transit delay, she was suddenly sanguine about the idea of riding in a taxi on her own.

SiL, a daily coffee drinker, has never made coffee for herself because her mother makes it for her every day. My husband was determined to teach her this very simple skill this weekend. While he taught it quite competently, she made it without the basket in the drip coffee maker. The weak brew flowed all over the kitchen counter, and my husband had to spend this evening cleaning grinds out of his machine. Again, she's almost 40. Though she does have a significant developmental delay with associated learning disability, she is very intelligent and capable of driving herself and working outside of the home, so she seems at least as mature as a teenager. It seems like some of her behaviors are from PDMiL infantilizing her into incompetence.

Though it costs us a lot of time, money, and patience to put on these visits, we're never sure if SiL actually enjoys them because she doesn't look very happy. She spends time every evening chatting with her mother/my MiL by phone . Last night I did not make an effort to distance myself from the door, and I heard her true thoughts about the visit. She hated a barbecue that we took her to and didn't know why we went. (We explained why we were going and why we adore the hosts.) To her way of thinking, the only good thing about it was that the hosts had a cat. After that I heard enough and backed away. To be fair, if I had spent the whole time scowling  and not following up on other guests' polite attempts at conversation, I probably wouldn't have enjoyed myself either.

Today, she bashed our car door into a light post because she opened it without looking. It's well dented and missing paint in several places. So in addition to giving up my weekend to host SiL, now I can give up part of my week to get the car repaired. I'm billing this back to the in-laws, and I'm not submitting a claim to my insurer.

SiL's flight home was delayed this evening. She booked the last flight of the day on a discount carrier without a codeshare agreement, and she didn't know whether she had a refundable fare. She wanted to rebook her flight, but when she was put on hold, she kept hanging up and losing her place in the queue  . My husband was trying to walk away and make her solve her own problems, but she kept using magical thinking: "There will be a way for me to get the fare and time I want while getting a good night's sleep and working a fully day tomorrow." I kept watching her hang up the phone in a huff and complain about weather and staffing flight crews, so I calmly explained her alternatives and steered her toward accepting a ride to the airport Right Now . My goal was to get her out of my house and to the airport as quickly as possible, so she could huff and puff somewhere else. My plan worked, but it took a little while to cut through the drama, and it was past midnight before my husband could get to bed.

I'm not about this life. I don't know what SiL gets out of a visit like this. I definitely know what I get out of it: resentful, sad, and tired.

[WomanInterrupted]

Good grief!   

She can't even make coffee without flooding the counter?  I just can't with this!   

Here's an idea - the next time she brings up a visit, say, "No."   

Whyyyyyyy?   

Be honest:  "We don't enjoy your visits, and you don't seem to enjoy them, either."   

She may sputter.  She may squawk.  She may be incandescent with rage.  Or she may insist she LOVES visiting you and doesn't understand WHAT she did wrong.

Again, be honest:  You're not welcome to visit, now or in the future.   

*Don't* JADE and give her reasons - just restate your BOUNDARIES.  She is not welcome - cased closed.  There is no WHY - there is just NO.   

All her tries to get a WHYYYYYY? out of either of you should go back to a *boundary* -  "Because we don't want you to visit."  "Because we said no."   

Yes, it's like talking to a toddler, but if that's what you're left with - so be it.

Anybody who wants to argue with, "Because we said no" is a candidate for having their number blocked, IMO.

And I *really* think you should be as hard-line as you need to be *now* - eventually, your DH's parents are going to age, probably go into a nursing home (or stalwartly REFUSE and insist your DH take care of them - THAT is a conversation for another day - and I'll be more than happy to contribute!), which leaves your SIL on her own.   

She can't be on her own - where will she go?  What will she do?

She will have to figure out her OWN mess, or have a social worker do it for her, but you and your DH are NOT a solution.   

By having clear boundaries now about visiting - NO - you won't wind up with her as a *permanent fixture  at your house.*   

Did that just scare the crap out of you? 

I really hope it did - she probably thinks, or your IL's have probably told her that you and DH will take her in when they're gone.   

You'd be MORE than smart to nip that in the bud now, with hard-line, "NO" across the board to anything she says regarding visiting - and blocking her, if necessary.

I really suggest you get a handle on this now, before something happens to one of her parents, and they're trying to fob her off on you for an "extended visit" which becomes permanent residency at yours.