Help fellow Christians with perspective...

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LSK1999

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Help fellow Christians with perspective...
« on: September 30, 2018, 02:09:47 AM »
Hi all, I first and foremost want to say that as of late I have been finally getting in touch with my anger and rage that has been repressed for a long time. I have done this with the help of Pete Walker's book on C-PTSD and his ideas that my fight response had been disabled. He encourages clients to anger to help flashbacks and to begin to fight with a ferocity for ourselves and our inner child. I cannot believe how alienated from my own feelings of anger...anger at abuse....anger at sin...and anger at injustice. I have further learned by what I believe is my Lord telling me and showing me truth I needed to see, that evil is real and it lives in the heart of my family members.

I do not know how as Christians how we can separate the behavior of our PD parents and family members from evil. I mean I know many seem to do this and I understand why....no one wants to believe their mother or father or child harbors evil in their heart. Yet if we are Christian we are called to believe what the bible tells us and not what psychology, other religions, or science tells us. I say this fully believing in the bible and for me never seeing a science that can refute what the bible teaches me about my lord and savior Jesus Christ. I mean many people can refute his miracles by saying they aren't scientifically possible....but then they wouldn't be miracles would they? As Christians we are called to believe in all of the bible, not to pick and choose what fits us. So for me I have to say the more I pray and grow closer, the more I believe in evil, satan, and his actions working fully in this world. The bible teaches us that we are engaging in spiritual warfare all of the time and that we will have enemies. For me the total denial of this possible truth that my NM had evil in her heart and it was directed at me led me to be harmed greatly.

We are living in a time that it becomes increasingly more difficult to believe what the bible teaches us, in other words it's hard to be a Christian. In an age of science, psychology, and everyone choosing their own way and what works for them only leads us further from the truth of Jesus Christ. What I find when I look for answers to my NM's actions against me and her NPD I find more confusion. Is it possible that all my confusion was the confusion caused by the secular world and all it's media and psychology hype? Is it possible that reality just isn't really all that confusing and it's just as simple as the bible tells us it is. There is good and there is evil...there are those that will follow Christ and those that will not. The road is narrow folks....won't those that refuse or choose not to follow him be more susceptible to evil and it's lies. If we are true bible following Christians we cannot discount satan or his rule over this earth, we then choose to deny a fundamental truth of the word of God. I am starting to feel like I'm one of the only people left on earth that believes the bible still, perhaps a sign I need to find a church  :) I am truly interested in perspectives on this from other Christians....

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Associate of Daniel

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Re: Help fellow Christians with perspective...
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2018, 01:50:05 PM »
LSK, I'm with you on this.

But it's nearly 2am here so I'll try to write tomorrow.

AOD

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LSK1999

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Re: Help fellow Christians with perspective...
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2018, 01:55:23 PM »
LSK, I'm with you on this.

But it's nearly 2am here so I'll try to write tomorrow.

AOD

Great I will look forward to hearing from you, and thanks for posting this I feel less alone  :)

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Associate of Daniel

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Re: Help fellow Christians with perspective...
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2018, 07:12:43 AM »
I wonder if there is God's sinless purity, then sin that is forgiveable by God upon repentance, then evil that is unfathomable by man and unforgiveable by God.

The Bible does say that narrow is the gate to salvation and broad is the way to destruction.

So we shouldn't be surprised that we feel part of a small number.

It is important to fellowship with other christians so I do encourage you to find a church to attend.

AOD

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LSK1999

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Re: Help fellow Christians with perspective...
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2018, 10:47:39 AM »
I wonder if there is God's sinless purity, then sin that is forgiveable by God upon repentance, then evil that is unfathomable by man and unforgiveable by God.

The Bible does say that narrow is the gate to salvation and broad is the way to destruction.

So we shouldn't be surprised that we feel part of a small number.

It is important to fellowship with other christians so I do encourage you to find a church to attend.

AOD

Thanks for that...and your right I need fellowship and I think I have found a place and I'm excited about this, it's actually a small worship service that is ran by the man that was the minister of a church my dad took me to when I was a child. Your right too I shouldn't find myself surprised by being in small number, yet it is still is surprising to me  :stars: I used to hope the idea that the road was narrow wasn't very literal.....at this point in my life and 43 years of dealing with people I am truly beginning to understand it as truth. I think it's even harder for me after being so ostracized by my family so much of life to find myself alone in the truth yet again. This is why I def need fellowship. Thanks so much for being brave enough to answer this post. I am also learning speaking biblical truth does not lead to winning popularity contests  :)

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Adria

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Re: Help fellow Christians with perspective...
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2018, 11:46:06 AM »
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I have further learned by what I believe is my Lord telling me and showing me truth I needed to see, that evil is real and it lives in the heart of my family members.

I read an article on this somewhere about how we really can't serve the Lord thinking the world is a kind and loving place to live. That through these trials with our families, we are to learn that yes evil is alive and well, and that we are to wake up and be brave enough to see what is truly out in this world. What a very difficult reality to face. Especially because our families groomed us to believe they were such wonderful people.

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There is good and there is evil.

Yes, I believe it is quite simple, as you said. Unfortunately most everything comes down to good and evil.

The Bible also says, Psalm 27:10, "When my father and my mother forsake me, then the Lord will take me up. ."  It doesn't say "if", it says "when". I've always found that very interesting. 




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SonofThunder

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Re: Help fellow Christians with perspective...
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2018, 12:27:48 PM »
Hi LSK,

You wrote;  “I do not know how as Christians how we can separate the behavior of our PD parents and family members from evil. I mean I know many seem to do this and I understand why....no one wants to believe their mother or father or child harbors evil in their heart.” 

If you were to try to mentally separate the behavior from ‘evil’, then as a Christian, what would you attribute the behavior too?   

I look at sin as a deviation from Gods original design, and being a human, it is not something I choose for myself, but rather i was born into it; i was pre-stained with sin.  I consider the human body, which includes the mind, as a suitcase for my soul.  In my travels down the paths of life, my suitcase is getting banged up, dragged through the rain, dirt and handled and bruised by travel and time.  My suitcase is also riding the conveyor belt of life with all the other suitcases and we all bang around together, some coming apart very quickly and others weathering the storms of life's travel better and longer than others.   But regardless, the creator of the suitcase and soul has guaranteed that no matter how well or poorly, long or short the suitcase holds up, the inner soul he created, will be ultimately protected and upon the suitcase’s final ride down the conveyor, when all the hinges and buckles fall apart, the inner-soul’s final destination is not in this life, but in an eternal life with (or separated from), its creator.

With that said, i personally dont look at my uPDw as evil, but rather that she suffers from a disorder that plagues her mind and dictates what words come out of her mouth and what actions or reactions i see from her.  I like to love the sinner but hate the sin.  When i am protecting myself with the toolbox, i am protecting myself from the outward expression of sin, which happens to be coming from my uPDw’s suitcase, therefore protection from my uPDw is necessary.   But, imo, if my uPDw were able to separate herself from the PD and choose to keep or lose the PD, i think she would surely choose to lose it, recognizing that the PD plagues her so much and that what i see is the outward actions and reactions that she has developed since childhood to mask the inner torture.  But, she is currently unable to see through the fog like i can, as her PD is so deeply ingrained in her suitcase; who her mentally tortuous parents helped develop (really under-develop) by their terrible PD’d upbringing, and probably their parents as well. 

Do i believe Christ has the power to heal/rid my uPDw of her PD?  Yes 100%.  But who am i to question why he doesn't?   Thats not my job to question him; its my job to keep my suitcase focused on a steady relationship with him while i ride the conveyor belts of life, and by doing so, its assured that the last plane i ride will discard my suitcase in the baggage claim where Christ is waiting and he will take my soul home with him, and discard that ragged earthly suitcase.   For those who dont choose the free (free to us, earned by him) gift offered by Christ on the cross and travel relationship with him in this life, their suitcase also empties with ours into baggage claim. Since those travelers chose routes along life apart from Christ’s direction, they dont go home with him, but to a place where he is not.   

My travels happens to now be with Christ, (and i made that travel change decision around 23 years old in the midst of hardship) but now for 27+ years closely riding with my uPDw’s suitcase, my suitcase shows the scars of that rough travel, but my soul is still well protected.  I pray for my wife to be able to be healed in this life from PD, but she may never, and statistically the odds are low, but my true prayer is that somewhere in that tortured suitcase, she has chosen or will choose the free gift and relationship, so that when her suitcase comes down the chute for the last time, her soul will be claimed by Christ and her tortured suitcase discarded.  Then, in heaven, i will begin to get to know the real soul of my wife, unhindered by PD. 

But for now, this suitcase will protect itself as best possible from the evil that comes forth from sin (my sin and others) and from the bruising that results from my close ride with mu uPDw and other travelers (some other PD’d) suitcases piled on top of mine.  Some travelers suitcases have a much smoother journey it seems, but this is the journey i’m on and i will make the most of it, trying to find as much peace and joy as possible along the way.

In fellowship alongside you right here on the forum, 

SoT



« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 12:34:50 PM by SonofThunder »
Proverbs 17:1
A meal of bread and water in contented peace is better than a banquet spiced with quarrels.

2 Timothy 1:7
For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline.

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LSK1999

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Re: Help fellow Christians with perspective...
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2018, 02:02:18 PM »
Thank you Adria and Son of Thunder for your comments. I would love to read that article, I know these are things that the lord is waking me up to. Son of Thunder.....all I can say is I hope you are right. I pray that for my NM this is just an affliction of mental disorder and that she can be freed by Christ when the time comes. You sound amazingly strong in your ability to deal with the PD. I cannot however at this point view my mother's affliction as just a simple mental disorder. My mother is NPD and no matter what definition you go to for NPD  whether it's from psychology, psychoanalysis, etc. it does not scratch the surface of the problematic behavior N's engage in. My NM abused me horrendously in my life as a small child, and adolescent, and as an adult. She was only happy once she had destroyed me and I was totally under her thumb and control. She has spent a lifetime trying to sabotage my happiness, and gets pleasure from my pain. She lies, manipulates, and harms in the cruelest ways and then tells you and the rest of the world it's your fault. My father then married another PD that abused his children in the same way. These women are Wolves in Sheep's clothing that are responsible for horrendous abuse of children. So mental disorder or not their actions represent evil in every way, and their sins against God's most innocent will not go unpunished. It's a loving and kind approach that you take with your PD wife and I will never pass judgement on others for being strong enough to withstand it. I however never was I was born into it and let me tell you it was evil, sick, and wrong.

It's my belief that PD is putting a label on just really bad behavior and excusing it. just gives these people full excuse to continue to harm and maim other human beings and their lives in the process. I too want to hate the sin and not the sinner, and I do I hate whatever it is that lives in my mother that made her capable of such cruelty against her small children and all those weak and broken people she has victimized in her life. Because she preys on the weak and the vulnerable......hmmmmm......who else does that?????? Yep....Satan. I will also say this. I have a  daughter that is PD as well. She has behaviors very similar to my NM's but her behavior is not nearly as malevolent or cruel. Yet she does still behave in a way that is harmful to others. So while I don't necessarily believe all PD's are evil, I believe that their actions are very much so and this behavior attracts dark forces. For me now it's all about changing my daughter's behavior and making her see that her actions against others are harmful. I will no longer just accept her behavior and say it's okay, because it's not. At this point in my life no one will ever convince me that there isn't something very dark working in my NM, and for the sake of my mental and spiritual health I choose to stay away. God Bless you all

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Adria

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Re: Help fellow Christians with perspective...
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2018, 06:29:53 PM »
LSK1999

My son has a mental disorder called schizophrenia.  When he is not in a good place mentally, he is a completely different person than his normal self. Normally, he is a very kind, generous and loving soul who would never intentionally hurt anyone. When he is not doing well, he is mouthy, unreasonable and belligerent. This can be changed through vitamins, hormonal therapy and/or medication, so is a true disease because the brain malfunctioning can be manipulated by supplements into doing what it is supposed to vs him being purposely mean and hateful.  I feel he was born that way as to the way he was when he was a child.
 
My father, however, has a mental disorder called narcissistic personality disorder.  Maybe something happened to him as a child that made him become what he is or maybe born toward that bent.  But, at some point, I think he has chosen and continues to choose to be what he is and has carefully and cunningly crafted this art as to manipulate, control and destroy people. I certainly don't have all the answers. I've seen him nice when he was on paxil. I couldn't handle it because he didn't seem like my mean nasty father that I was used to. I wasn't around him much on the drug, so don't know how deep the effects went or how effective a drug can be in this situation.

What I do know is this; he knows how to pick and choose his victims. He treated his boss respectfully. He treats my sisters with kid gloves. He treated my ex husband, who abused me with his consent, respectfully. He has decidedly, all my life, to treat me me like dog dirt stuck to his shoe. That said, it may be a legit mental disorder or disease. (My Chinese doctor says it's a liver problem. If his liver was fixed, he wouldn't be that way.)

But . . . when they pick and choose who they are going to destroy, and map out how they are going to do it; all the while lawyering up in case something goes awry, that, to me, is where the element of evil comes in. A normal person, on their worst behavior, wouldn't have a clue how to do what these people do, nor would they expend that kind of energy to hurt someone. What they do is well planned, sly and cunning. My sister kept crib notes on people on where, when, how and why she was going to punish them. I watched my sister practice after my father, and she has far succeeded him as far as destroying lives and families. She is proud of her practice, brags about it, and is one of the best I've ever seen. Very, very scary stuff indeed.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 06:31:59 PM by Adria »

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LSK1999

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Re: Help fellow Christians with perspective...
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2018, 10:04:03 PM »
Hi Adria, thanks so very much for your response. It feels so good to know I am not alone in this belief. It is truly scary stuff and I don't think we can fathom how evil the mindset really is. I have recently been remembering things in childhood and I am stopped cold in my tracks and utterly stunned with the realizations of just how manipulative and calculating my mothers behavior was and the sheer detest she seems to have for everyone but herself.....even her own children. A few times memories of what she had done feel like they make my blood run cold. The brainwashing is the the thing I have the most difficult time with....to look starkly at the horrible truth now I am stunned that I actually sat in therapy about 4 years ago and assured my T that my childhood wasn't very traumatic???? I have zero idea how I ever could have believed that...my T kept saying usually people that suffered anxiety and panic at a rate I did suffered significant trauma.....I suppose it never helped when I reached out to other family members they made excuses, said she couldn't help it, she was damaged.....UMMMMM so I am and I make a choice to not harm others. I could not agree with you more that a choice is being made here. I help myself by remembering these things 1. My NM knows what she does is wrong or she would feel no need to hide it. 2. She is fully aware of the bible and the 10 commandments and she chooses to follow none of them. 3. She is fully aware of people that are kind empathetic and compassionate and she fully capitalizes on this to garner time and attention for herself and and worse of all lies to the world about who she is. Not only will she never admit wrong she will rage at me in the most cruel and heinous way if I even suggest she harms me.

I am so sorry to hear about your son....and schizophrenia is such a truly sad condition at least it is on that is manageable and I agree it's not the same at all as PD. There is much more at work in PD, I totally agree. I even find myself wondering is PD just some scientific name we have given to account for those whose actions are deeply troubling? In this day and age so many think science can explain anything, yet any good scientist will tell you that is far from true and that there is a vast amount about our Universe science can even't begin to contend with. For me this has all been a journey that began when I asked Christ into my life and asked him to show me the truth. Several times I have wished I could unsee this truth...once you know there is no going back. Also it was like the hits kept on coming....my whole life is being reconstructed and I realize now it was one in which all I ever knew was abuse and abuse at the hands of NPDs. It's been horrendous but I know when you ask Jesus for truth he reveals it to you, even when it's really not pleasant. I feel the lord has been trying to show me that evil exists and it's real....I am forever a doubting Thomas and seeking outside validation....I think the lord forgives me that as he knows it's my past that causes this. So thank you so so much for your validating post, I am continuing to pray for stronger faith and the ability to find peace after all of th pain. God bless you and big hugs to you  :bighug:

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Julian R

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Re: Help fellow Christians with perspective...
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2018, 10:53:35 AM »
Hello LSK ... and everyone

I hope to join this conversation more fully sometime but just want to say - with others, that you are not alone.  I also have a high view of the Bible and the truth that God revels to us.  I agree it is challenging often to reconcile what the Bible clearly teaches with what the medical sciences and psychology would have us believe and I admit to not finding it easy to know what to make of my own situation on the light of things learned on this site and all that I have learnt from being a christian of long standing.

Ultimately what God says is true is true - but at the same time there is plenty we can learn from other (non-Biblical sources because there are vestiges of God's goodness all around and so much we are discovering of the world he made but we do need to approach everything with discernment and care and evaluate it all in the light of His truth specially revealed in the Bible.  This is a journey we are all on - if I can help in any way I will.

Your posts above express something of the horror of what you have endured - and what I go through pales into insignificance - I feel for you ....

To label it as evil seems appropriate.  Science may provide explanations of why and what has gone on in some way, but surely any explanation cannot be used to excuse or justify such cruel and destructive behaviour that seems to be delighted in and never regretted.  So sorry you have had to go through this.

I often compare our lives to ruined houses that God has bought and is in the process of renovating to make them beautiful and functional once again. Some people bring ruin upon themselves by their own choices, others are ruined by other peoples "evil" behaviour.  Most often there is a complex mixture of the two at play.  The process of "renovation" is often difficult and painful and you are experiencing that, but we have the reassurance that we belong to God, he has redeemed us in Christ and he is making something new in the midst of evil.

Maybe I will say more another day ... you are not alone.  :wave:

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SonofThunder

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Re: Help fellow Christians with perspective...
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2018, 11:23:31 AM »
Thank you Adria and Son of Thunder for your comments. I would love to read that article, I know these are things that the lord is waking me up to. Son of Thunder.....all I can say is I hope you are right. I pray that for my NM this is just an affliction of mental disorder and that she can be freed by Christ when the time comes. You sound amazingly strong in your ability to deal with the PD. I cannot however at this point view my mother's affliction as just a simple mental disorder. My mother is NPD and no matter what definition you go to for NPD  whether it's from psychology, psychoanalysis, etc. it does not scratch the surface of the problematic behavior N's engage in. My NM abused me horrendously in my life as a small child, and adolescent, and as an adult. She was only happy once she had destroyed me and I was totally under her thumb and control. She has spent a lifetime trying to sabotage my happiness, and gets pleasure from my pain. She lies, manipulates, and harms in the cruelest ways and then tells you and the rest of the world it's your fault. My father then married another PD that abused his children in the same way. These women are Wolves in Sheep's clothing that are responsible for horrendous abuse of children. So mental disorder or not their actions represent evil in every way, and their sins against God's most innocent will not go unpunished. It's a loving and kind approach that you take with your PD wife and I will never pass judgement on others for being strong enough to withstand it. I however never was I was born into it and let me tell you it was evil, sick, and wrong.

It's my belief that PD is putting a label on just really bad behavior and excusing it. just gives these people full excuse to continue to harm and maim other human beings and their lives in the process. I too want to hate the sin and not the sinner, and I do I hate whatever it is that lives in my mother that made her capable of such cruelty against her small children and all those weak and broken people she has victimized in her life. Because she preys on the weak and the vulnerable......hmmmmm......who else does that?????? Yep....Satan. I will also say this. I have a  daughter that is PD as well. She has behaviors very similar to my NM's but her behavior is not nearly as malevolent or cruel. Yet she does still behave in a way that is harmful to others. So while I don't necessarily believe all PD's are evil, I believe that their actions are very much so and this behavior attracts dark forces. For me now it's all about changing my daughter's behavior and making her see that her actions against others are harmful. I will no longer just accept her behavior and say it's okay, because it's not. At this point in my life no one will ever convince me that there isn't something very dark working in my NM, and for the sake of my mental and spiritual health I choose to stay away. God Bless you all

Hello LSK1999,

I am so sorry that you have had such a tortuous upbringing with you NPDm and now recognize PD traits in your daughter.  I am familiar with NPD as my father is a uNPD, but cleary displays all the traits of NPD, even to physical violence.  I dont know the details of your tortuous abuse, but this sentence you wrote is very true of my father;  “she has spent a lifetime trying to sabotage my happiness, and gets pleasure from my pain. She lies, manipulates, and harms in the cruelest ways and then tells you and the rest of the world it's your fault.” 

This went on throughout my childhood as he was never pleased in me and through dominance, rules and punishment, steered me and my brother’s childhood through the hoops of his desires so that we would perform in a way that made him look good. When he determined his reputation wasnt looking good, because at the moment we werent performing in excellence or making choices he disagreed with (in our fairly small rural community), we were punished.  He verbally abused my mother and she became very obedient and docile in nature which exacerbated the issue. 

Jump forward to 2018, and my uNPDf is 79.  Just this past spring, he physically attacked my 56 year old brother and before my brother could get him pinned to the side of a truck, my father had clawed deep scratches all over my brothers face and attempted to knee him in the groin.  All over my fathers perception that my brother had embarrassed him in front of my brothers employees.  The situational reality was that  my father had (unannounced) entered onto my brothers work property and started to verbally assault my brothers employees and my brother was called.  Upon arrival on the job site, my brother asked my father to leave the jobsite or he woukd make him leave (my brother is a tall and strong man-much larger than my father) and my father (in self pride) refused and kept up the verbal attack.  When my brother attempted to escort him off property, is when the physical attack happened.  Because of the small community, my brother did not press charges. 

For weeks after, my father purposefully went throughout the community and spread rumors about the incident and lies about my brother, so that community members (who only know my father as a generous thoughtful man, because he portrays that to all outside his inner circle) started to circulate what they were told and it reached my brother. 

I say this because i can surely relate to NPD and the inner-circle viscous acts that occur.  What you describe in your NPDm and my experience in my uNPDf is truly evil, and i believe evil is what Christ says it is, from Satan and the true expression of darkness.  But I also know my father well.  He suffers from deep depression that comes in cycles and in the deep lows, he reveals his true inner feelings about himself, which is worthlessness.   When he is not low and in the high energy traits of NPD, that worthlessness is kept deep under cover and masked by the complete opposite, which is false pride and he will deploy evil against others to keep his inner worthlessness under cover from others and from himself. 

I do believe that the evil you talk of is true; is real in the PD’s in our lives and i believe these individuals do make conscious choices for evil, as they carefully choose their victims and methods.  But i also believe that among that evil lives a disorder they didnt ask for, but live with, and in order for me to exist around them, and protect myself, i must personally acknowledge the fact of the dual existence.   

That dual existence is why i can choose to love (desire what is best for) the sinner/PD and hate the evil sin. I do not excuse the PD’s in my life, nor do I ignore their actions and traits, but rather now, using my PD education and the toolbox, plan for and carry out boundaries and other protective (love) actions for myself, and those under my care.  PD traits are not ok and never will be, but imo, only Christ has the ability to heal these disorders, whether here on Earth or eventually in the life thereafter when the PD suitcase is discarded. 

Again, so sorry about your and Adria’s tortuous upbringing and yes, so nice to not be alone in our experiences.   

SoT. 
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 11:26:40 AM by SonofThunder »
Proverbs 17:1
A meal of bread and water in contented peace is better than a banquet spiced with quarrels.

2 Timothy 1:7
For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline.

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Adria

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Re: Help fellow Christians with perspective...
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2018, 01:02:57 PM »
LSK,

I can relate to everything you have posted except with me, it was my father and sister who did the most damage.  I am so sorry for what you have suffered at the hands of your mother. Yes, when we ask Jesus to shed light on a situation, it can be more than we are prepared to face in some cases. But, nevertheless, we need to come to terms with it even if it takes seemingly forever to do so. I believe it is only then that we can begin to heal.

Sonofthunder makes excellent points. Only God truly knows someone's heart whether it is a disorder or evil intent. I struggle with that with my family as well because it is hard to think of a family member as true evil, but it is biblical and it does exist. The Bible is full of family horror stories.

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I do believe that the evil you talk of is true; is real in the PD’s in our lives and i believe these individuals do make conscious choices for evil, as they carefully choose their victims and methods.  But i also believe that among that evil lives a disorder they didnt ask for, but live with, and in order for me to exist around them, and protect myself, i must personally acknowledge the fact of the dual existence.

I think maybe my father has a disorder underneath it all as he breaks down and cries every time he tries to talk. And yes, I do believe Christ can heal these disorders. I have made a conscious decision to pray for my family every day in an effort to forgive from a distance and not grow bitter.  However, my sister's antics are vile and of an evil to the likes I've never seen before.  With her, I wonder if she is into something darker and more sinister than I even want to think. As messed up as both of my family members are, there is a distinct difference between the two of them.

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Adria

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Re: Help fellow Christians with perspective...
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2018, 03:26:53 PM »
LSK,

Have you ever read the book by C. S.  Lewis, "The Screw Tape Letters"?   

Here is a quote from the book: "Indeed the safest road to hell is the gradual one – the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts,… Your affectionate uncle, Screwtape.”  C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters

According to C. S. Lewis, the habits we form become the person we are.

Case in point:  I was the scapegoat in my family. I could not do anything right according to my parents and my sisters. The sister I spoke of above is the one I will speak of here.  I was chastised for the smallest offenses.  It was very hard to grow up that way. However, my sister never got in trouble, and she did awful things. It was as though she had a free pass by my parents.  She started out doing small evils as a little girl and soon realized that nobody was going to call her out on it or stop her. Little by little over the weeks, months, years, she grew to find pleasure in the pain and control she could exert over people. After all, she could get away with it, so why not? She practiced this and became very skillful at destroying marriages, having people placed in mental institutions, etc. To her, this was an art, something to become skillful at and inside of herself, be proud of.  In many unspoken ways, she was applauded by my father initially to keep me down and under control.

Eventually, this became a way of life for her. A little at a time, day after day, year after year, until she was so far down the road, she lost all perspective on good and evil and could not see the kind of malicious evil-minded person she had become. In her twisted  mind, she grew to believe she was smarter, superior and more sophisticated than her kind stupid unsuspecting victims.  Can this turn into a disorder?  When you start believing your own lies, when you justify the pain you cause others, eventually it is going to make your mind twisted and sick. I'm sure Geoffrey Dahmer didn't just wake up one day and wonder what people taste like. It is a slow slippery slope ignoring the chiding of God.  At first God tries to get you back on track. He pricks your conscious. He lets you reap natural consequences of your actions. But if you willfully ignore his chiding, He will eventually turn you over to a reprobate mind and you will be left to your own devices. This is why the Bible says the road to Heaven is narrow. If left unchecked or ignore God's warnings, you will slowly but surely find yourself on the path to destruction. We are given free will, and sooner or later we have to make the choice to be who we want to be whether it be good or evil.

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LSK1999

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Re: Help fellow Christians with perspective...
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2018, 08:09:25 PM »
Thank you so much all of you for sharing your wisdom with me.

Son of Thunder: I am so sorry to hear about your father. The situation your poor brother has gone through with him is heartbreaking. I too have been physically attacked on more than one occasion and it was humiliating. I am much larger than my NM and the fear of her was never physical. I did nothing to defend myself I lay on the bed on one occasion in the fetal position while she hit and kicked me in my back and head. There is nothing in me that would allow me to put my hands on her, even though physically we are no match. I could cause her great harm physically if I wished to do so and I have my days where I wished I would have at least had the guts to act physically aggressive without actually following through to show her she does not have the power or right to do that to me. I am glad your brother was physically defending himself with your father, we have the right to protect our physical bodies from attack. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your posts and the time and attention you have offered to me with your own experience. It means so much to me.

Julian- Good to see you here, I hope all is well with you. Thank you for your kind words and response as well. I think discernment is such an important part of life as a Christian. I do think God is growing that ability in me and it's also kind of depressing because I am learning that some of spiritual teachers I have listened too in the past are not really who they say they are. I also had issues in therapy because my therapist told me on more than one occasion I needed to choose a different religious belief  :stars: I understand now why as a therapist she would say that as at that time I had very wrong beliefs about how God was looking at me. You see I never really doubted God much as a young person....but I very much believed he despised me as much as my family did. Growing up in my life it was impossible to live by the standards I was taught in Church on Sunday and I found nothing but contempt from all around me, I began to project this contempt onto God and spent the majority of my life until I was in my mid 30's believing God hated me. You can imagine my utter shock and surprise then in my late 30's after asking Christ to show me the truth I had an experience that showed me otherwise. I have never told anyone this with the exception of my fiance but I heard the voice of God loudly and clearly tell me that he had "ALWAYS" loved me. I actually said out loud "Are you serious, all this time I thought you couldn't" The feelings of love and joy I felt immediately after confirmed it for me.....I had never felt that way in my entire life. Sadly those feelings are still few and far between as I work through the misery of my past. I try to remember the way I felt that night and I can't seem to feel that way again, this is what I am working towards. That joy and love was so beautiful and I know it is where my soul wants to be.Sorry that was a lot..... :)

Adria: I have heard many good things about the work of C.S. Lewis and it sounds like his ideas on this make a whole lot of sense. I am definitely interested in reading his work and this will be on my list of top priorities. I have noticed this too with my NM, when she was young she was actually very good at least coming off as pleasant and kind (she fooled many), it seems the older she gets the nastier she gets and any even pretense at kindness is just gone. It seems to me her game is slipping as well and I have noticed over the last few years her actually telling on herself without realizing it. My favorite example of this is when she one day said as it was as a simple of a matter as it raining outside...." I never get while people care so much about how other people feel, I don't care how anybody feels but me". Yep she said that right out in the open. Me in awe of this statement and what seemed to finally be the truth coming out of her mouth, wanted to engage with this truth....so I commended her for her honesty by saying "Well mom that is one of the most honest things I think you ever said." I then got attacked with "Why in the hell would you say something like that to me?"  :stars: Ummm....what did I say that was horrible? I wasn't the one who just admitted to caring zero for the feelings of others  :doh: :doh: She also openly admitted to being envious of me even "when I was little" because people liked me more than her. When I tried to point out that envy is an abnormal response to one's own child, she looked like I slapped her in the face and quickly changed the subject. This is when my blood runs cold....when I imagine little helpless innocent me in the arms of a woman that is not gazing on the face of her precious innocent one with the unconditional love but envy and contempt. Picture this situation in real life, or better yet picture it playing out on a big screen in front of us like at a movie, it's a thing horror movies could be made of. Yet for many of us it was our reality....it's no wonder we suffer from horrendous and crippling anxiety, nightmares that wake us up in terror, and the constant sense of dread that seems to haunt our every waking moment. Writing this now I realize it isn't any wonder I am beginning to equate this to evil. God Bless you all and thank you sooooooooo much for all of the love and guidance. I feel surrounded by love in this thread and in the love of Christ right now, it means the world to know you are all out there  :)

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Julian R

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Re: Help fellow Christians with perspective...
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2018, 06:22:24 AM »
LSK  :)

Thank you for your kind reply.  And thank you for sharing your special experience with God, it is encouraging to hear and a very precious moment and memory for you.  God perhaps rarely reveals himself in these special extraordinary ways but when he does so it is because he is aware of particular need and I an sure you were very needful of such a revelation and it has been very beneficial to you.  In the more usual course of life he asks us simply to trust Him and walk by faith, trusting what he says to us through his Word and this also can be precious times.

Thank you for asking how I am - struggling a bit is the short answer ...

I think a big danger for many is that we can project onto God some of the behaviours and attitudes of our parents or others close to us.  We can, as you mention, assume that God treats us as they treat us and a big part of our spiritual growth comes from realising that this is not the case - and even when we have come to understand this it can still be an ongoing struggle to believe.  Thinking about this reminds me again that I struggle in a similar way.  Growing up, my parents were not proactively cruel or abusive but because of circumstances and perhaps their own brokenness they were neglectful of me, as least emotionally.  My mother was often unwell and suffered from a stream of various ailments, some serious - this limited her ability to care for me - but perhaps I am excusing her more than I should - anyway I never really felt an emotional proximity to my mother.  Then, as she was unwell, my father was very focused on her needs and again probably neglected my own emotional needs.  All care was centred on my mother and I felt that no-one cared for me - and I still feel that way.  My uDPw is very self centred, has rather a victim mentality - expects attention focused on her - but she shows little interest in me or care for me - I feel no real relational connection with her or affection.  And from time to time I realise that I project this kind of feeling onto God.   I kind of assume that he focuses his care and love on those who have suffered more than me, I maybe assume he is a bit distant or indifferent to me because his attention is focused elsewhere.  It can be a struggle to remember and even more so to feel, that his love for me is the same as for anyone else.  :(

Yes, C.S Lewis is a helpful writer, especially "The Screwtape Letters"

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Starboard Song

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Re: Help fellow Christians with perspective...
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2018, 08:59:20 AM »
I have a response from law.

Criminal law must provide an actus rea: the criminal act. It doesn't always, but may provide the mens rea: the criminal intent, or state of mind.

I believe this corresponds perfectly to a real-world distinction between acts which are fairly described is evil regardless of the intent, and an evil intent, which is a separate thing.

Once you separate the two it is far easier to acknowledge the act as evil and harmful, while beginning to introduce Concepts of reduced culpability for those who are deeply confused or troubled or immature.

But further, I would propose this not for us to go about our world labeling things as evil or not. It is for us to go about our world being ourselves good and doing good things, and among those is protecting ourselves and those we love in a very pragmatic way.

I really do not care if a saber tooth tiger wanting to eat me is evil or just a saber-tooth tiger wanted to eat me. My job is to protect myself. When the discussion is about humans, my job has not changed. It is for someone else on this Earth to make judgments about evil and good.

Those are my two cents, and they are not to be trusted. But there are ones that I live by.
Radical Acceptance, by Brach   |   Self-Compassion, by Neff    |   Mindfulness, by Williams   |   The Book of Joy, by the Dalai Lama and Tutu
Healing From Family Rifts, by Sichel   |  Stop Walking on Egshells, by Mason    |    Emotional Blackmail, by Susan Forward

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SonofThunder

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Re: Help fellow Christians with perspective...
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2018, 11:38:46 AM »
Hello again LSK1999,

Thank you for your kind words, and yes, i am thankful my brother was willing to protect himself.  I am aware of the Bibles instruction to children (of any age) regarding our perspective toward father and mother and for me it is both (A): an understanding of their earthly and God-allowed titles in which i had no power to change and in which God expects them to behave properly in those roles, but also (B): as dictated by biology, as i cannot remove them from my DNA. 

With regard to (A,) i believe that Gods Biblical direction for fathers and mothers is equally important, and if parents are not going to act in a proper manner as parents, then as children, (A) has no bearing, because if parents are not going to act like parents, then the God allowed title (A) is invalidated by the parents and only (B) exists.  In that situation, i believe that invalidated parents also rescinds us children from the honoring (A) and only retain simply the understanding of (B).   That is why imo, that children who are adopted out of abusive or abandoned situations, should transfer the (A) earned/validated titles and respect of mother and father to the new parents who behave as such, but those children can never rid themselves of (B). 

In the case of my abusive father, and especially the physical abuse he has directed at my brother, my brother should recognize (B) but not be mentally weighed down by (A) because my father invalidates that title by his actions.   Therefore my brothers self-defense is totally right and needed against his (B) father by DNA. 

Im very sorry to hear about your physical abuse and imo, parent(s) invalidate themselves as (A) in doing that and also invalidate that title if they are aware the other parent is abusing and they dont put a stop to it/protect their abused child.   

I was also very excited to read about your experience with God in that way and his validation to you that he ALWAYS loves you.  In the midst of the abuse and turmoil, it feels as if God is not there and we see that in Christ when taking upon his shoulders the sins of the entire world and his crying out about the experience of being forsaken.  But it was not his being forsaken at all but the fog of being so burdened by the sins of others, that his connection to God the father seemed so far away, yet God the father was right there with him and never left.  That darned fog of being in the midst of such heavy sin!   If Christ himself, as the very son of God, can experience the heavy fog of forsakenness, then i surely also will experience it and must remember Christ’s experience and know that no matter how bad it gets, God is, as you said ALWAYS there and ALWAYS loves (wants what is best as he determines best) us.

SoT
« Last Edit: October 03, 2018, 11:43:55 AM by SonofThunder »
Proverbs 17:1
A meal of bread and water in contented peace is better than a banquet spiced with quarrels.

2 Timothy 1:7
For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline.

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bgirl12

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Re: Help fellow Christians with perspective...
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2018, 12:31:09 AM »
LSK1999,

I am very happy you are healing and finding deliverance. Know that the battle is won. Christ defeated the kingdom of darkness and Satan and his demons are like rats feeding on garbage in believers who don't know who they are. We are seated right now in the heavenliness with Christ in eternity forever. it cannot be undone. We have to fight the good fight for others and not accidentally or on purpose open the door to the enemy to allow him to cause problems. So good job remembering who you are and you are out of Lucifer's hands.
For all people, it is very hard to determine motive. Are they heartless? Not entirely. They are still created in God's image and likeness, they are just in darkness and are blind. I sometimes can't make sense of "why." I can tell what acts are not in line with God's word and are not fruit of the spirit. I can tell what is not from God. It hurts to see loved ones acting that way and even worse towards me. I wonder if people really intend to harm or this is just the way they know how to be and only God can change them. We all are capable of sin, evil thoughts and deeds. Bad habits, grudges, blame, pride, we all have it and have to keep short accounts.
After surviving PSTD and/or abuse, you must be an incredible fighter and survivor. You care a great deal, I imagine. What I can tell you is God will use everything in your life. Even your pain. He will fulfill HIS plans. Continue to cry out to him and give it to him. He will get you to a place you are not defeated, even when struck down. I pray and pray for my loved ones who are not saved. I pray for my loved ones who are saved and have a lot of problems they seem to struggle with. I know Christ has not yet returned and it is another day to share his love with my family and friends. it is another day to tell someone what he did for me. It is another day I can pray that God will bind the enemy long enough to get to the hearts of my family and prepare them for the gospel. You are not alone my friend. Life is messy but the end is good and it is beyond your wildest dreams. God will restore it all. He will wipe all the tears from our eyes. And I believe he is using you to be a light. Check out Freedom in Christ Ministries, or similar ones, and see if they have any connections and church groups near you so you can get support in spiritual warfare. It's more of a private issue in the church, but a lot of pastors and prayer groups have resources and will walk with you. Who knows- there could be someone at a church praying about what they went through and you could be there for them. God bless you. Fight the good fight!!

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Mary

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Re: Help fellow Christians with perspective...
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2018, 02:07:08 AM »
I recently read an article at nogreaterjoy.org that argued that if God is still being patient with the person, so can I. This has given me a lot of energy. I can't change uPDh, but I can choose my own responses of love, kindness, and goodwill (even when holding to a boundary/ medium chill, etc.). If my good will is not reciprocated, that is not mine to change. A day of reckoning will come. God says that vengeance belongs to Him and He will repay. So I let the reproach fall to Him, and He in His wisdom will sort out who is accountable for what and to what level.

In the mean time, He protects me and is the lifter of my head. Thank you LSK for the sweet, sweet reminder that Christ ALWAYS loves me. He is my truest friend, knows my heart, and will never leave.  Thank you Jesus.
For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. (Isaiah 54:5)