PD traits in a younger child?

Started by Call Me Cordelia, December 30, 2018, 09:50:55 PM

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Call Me Cordelia

I'm concerned about my oldest son (8). I'll call him "Joey." He is often defiant, and the manipulative and outright disrespectful behaviors, lack of boundaries, and absolute refusal to take responsibility for his actions we see on almost a daily basis have me really freaked. He sounds so PD. All of his grandparents are PD, so if there's a genetic component his odds are pretty poor. But I know he's only a kid still and both DH and I struggle with having good boundaries since neither of us were allowed to have any growing up. And I know that kids are naturally self-centered and I don't want to overreact. He doesn't have behavior issues other places, just with DH and me. He's always been tough but the outright defiance has really ramped up in the last year or so. About when I started going through getting Out of the FOG with my parents and ILs. But I've also become a lot more consistent with my boundaries at home. So tell me, is this normal? Is he rebelling against his new, better, healthier mom? Is he a mini-NPD in the making and I am just seeing it now? What do I do? My T says I just need to keep on keeping on, but I still feel something is off.

NB: The thing with saying, "Okay, Mommy," or "Okay, Daddy," started with the usual kid selective deafness. If he responds we know he heard. We insist on both words because 1) I read it in a book and 2) it's hard for him to fake respect when saying more than just "'kay." 3) Saying a phrase calmly actually helps our kids calm down. At least our other kids. That part was in the book too. I've explained this to him and the other kids it's not a problem. He can't explain why he has a problem with it other than he hates it. I suspect it's due to #2.

A typical interaction with him:
"Can I have breakfast now?"
"Joey, what needs to be done before breakfast?" (Collect the trash from all the little trashcans and bring it to the kitchen trashcan and replace the plastic bags as needed. Get dressed. Same routine every day for the last year and a half.)
"But I'm STARVING!!!! I have to eat right now!!!" (Has been faffing around in pjs for half an hour.)
"If you continue to argue you earn another chore. Please do your regular morning things and then you may eat."
>:(
"I need to hear, 'Okay, Mommy,' and see you obey right away."
"I need some time before I'm ready. I hate to say that. It makes me feel weird."
"Then you've chosen to do another chore. Please go do (some minor task) and then your morning chore. Okay?"
"I'm always getting more chores!!! It's not fair!!!"
"You may also do (some other minor task) because you are still arguing. Would you like to continue to earn more consequences or do the ones you've earned quickly and have your breakfast?"
"Have breakfast."
"Okay, good choice. So I need to see (two minor tasks), your morning chore, and you dressed and ready. Can I hear an "Okay, Mommy?"
"Okaaaaay."
"'Okay, Mommy.' Respectfully."
"Okay, Mommy. (nicely) I really really hate saying that!!!!"
"Complaining right after you obey is not really respectful. We can talk about it later when you're feeling calmer. But for now, can I hear simply "Okay, Mommy" and nothing else so we can get on with our day?"
"Okay, Mommy."
"Thank you. Check back with me before you get breakfast."
"Okay."
(He should say, "Okay, Mommy" but I let it go, worn out.)

I move on with getting the little ones ready and the stuff I have to do. Joey is eating breakfast. "Joey, I see you're eating. I appreciate it when you check with me first, so now I have to ask: Did you do a, b, c, d?"
"Yes!"
"The laundry room trashcan too? And all the bags?"
"Yes! I did my chore!"
"Okay, great, thank you. I'll check it out in a minute."
"Um, actually I might have forgotten part of it... I'll go check now..." (Quickly goes and does the entire chore. Laundry room first.)
"Joey, you told me a lie just now that you did your chore. You know that's not okay..."
"I didn't tell a lie! I just remembered I forgot but I thought I had done it!!!"
"I expect you to tell the truth. We need to be able to trust each other. It's a big deal."
"I hate this!!!!
"Oh, dear. Looks like you're losing control..."
"I just want to eat!!! You're always making me do chores!!!"
(Getting mad and trying to hold it together.) "Please go to your room. We'll continue when you're calm."

This is getting exhausting writing it all out. But anyway, we finally get to the point where he needs to apologize for what he did. We have a clear expectation for this too: "I'm sorry for x, it was wrong because y, in the future I will z." They don't have to say it exactly like that, and it can be simple. ("I'm sorry for lying. You can't trust me when I lie. In the future I will tell the truth.") Most of the time he "can't remember" what he did wrong, or just sits there with a certain defiant face and waits for me to spoonfeed him what to say, or he'll start arguing again. Lately I just walk away until he can come up with something, or I move to assigning the apology in writing. At which time he sits there and stares at the wall for ages. And then writes some catch-all thing like "I'm sorry for x (not necessarily what he actually needs to apologize for). I won't do it anymore so we can have a better life." And then I have to spoonfeed it to him after all. And he looks completely bewildered as if I had just said, "Remember this morning you were doing the hula on the table and stepped in your brother's cereal? You need to apologize for that." (That has never happened, by the way. Absolutely not.) But apologizing is never simple with him. And it's like this every single day. For several months at least.

And then we finally get through the issue and go about our day. Until the next blowup an hour later. And once the next one is dealt with, I discover that he never really did finish his chore after all!  :fallingbricks:

Call Me Cordelia

Adding that this is not a verbatim conversation with him, but the sort of things both of us commonly say. And yes, I do talk like that. I've done a ton of work this last year. I used to be a lot more of a yeller.

momnthefog

Cordelia,

Has your T seen him?  How is he at school, other activities?

It could be that he is responding the changes in you .... and those are confusing for him and he's still learning a better way to respond to your improvement (you mentioned you used to be more of a yeller).  If that's the case would your T consider seeing you and son together?

Regarding apologies....IMHO when we demand an apology it becomes hollow.....words said to get past the situation, rather than a change of heart and behavior which is what you really want.  (I've watched my PD-like mother extract "apologies from my father for as long as I can remember.)  I'm not sure how to get around this.  It's a concept I struggle with myself in raising kids. 

My kids are much older....but for many years I homeschooled (7).  At that age when remembering was an issue.  I made index cards for kids.  It was a pain initially but it made it easier on me b/c I wasn't sounding like a broken record and it took some of the sting out of things.  If he made the cards with you....he might even take pride in being old enough to read or use the cards....he could draw a pic of the trash cans or use a reminder.

And as a single mom, as much as his dad can be involved having a father figure who a boy can bump up to is imperative.....dad can say, you don't speak to mom (or any woman like that).  Dobson has written great books about child raising.  And raising boys is not like raising girls......and as women (IME) it was at times more difficult b/c I wanted them to process and do things along my female bent.....it took me a while to get that.

http://thesestonewalls.com/gordon-macrae/in-the-absence-of-fathers-a-story-of-elephants-and-men/

This article from the animal kingdom is what I'm getting at.  It's extreme but it hit home for me.  And many times there's a father present....but child rearing is turned over to mother. 

These are just musings of a mom....hope there's some ideas that might help in the midst of all of this!

momnthefog
"She made broken look beautiful and strong look invincible.  She walked with the universe on her shoulders and made it look like a pair of wings."

Finding Grace

HI Cordelia ~
To throw my experience out there, this sounds exactly like one of my sons who was diagnosed with adhd in 4th grade. He was so frustrated that he couldn't concentrate on his assignment in class when the other kids were talking. His main limitations are 1) easily distracted, 2) impulse control (quick outbursts) and 3) very, very short working memory. He will agree to take something upstairs for me and literally 15 seconds later, will walk right by it, I've witnessed this numerous times. He feels bad and ashamed when this happens because it makes him feel stupid. He doesn't feel in control when his brain is not cooperating. He was happy to get medication (vyvanse works for him) to help.

In high school now, he gets straight a's and manages his schoolwork. But in the afternoon when the meds wear off, I am still tripping over whatever he left out when his brain took him somewhere else. It drove me nuts for a long time, but I have been reading up on symptoms for years and now its much easier to handle.

There are suggested links between adhd and NPD, I have both disorders diagnosed in my FOO so it really freaks me out. I focus on demonstrating empathy with the kids and not shaming them (to not develop excessive defense reactions) and we all follow a 2-minute rule for tasks/reminders. I had to re-calibrate my expectations, but I still have to watch where I walk.  :) Best of luck!

notrightinthehead

Cordelia, are you having fun with your 8 year old son? Are there times when you play together, enjoy each others' company? How does he behave then? I hope it is not all about chores and obedience.
Have you read the book 'Boundaries with kids' by Cloud and Townsend? I found this book to be very helpful.
I can't hate my way into loving myself.

Hikercymru

Cordelia.
My daughter is 23 now and she used to be very defiant and disobedient as a child and teen.
I now wish I had spent less time enforcing rules (Or trying to).
And tried a different more playful route. She ended up not talking to me for five years.
She became a mother 1 year ago and now we are talking again. She has softened. She is is still manipulative at times. But not defiant anymore.
I regret being coercive with a child who was strong willed and stubborn.
I have two other children who responded well to my parenting, but this daughter was different and I wish I had thought about it more at the time.

practical

#6
Is he the eldest? If so does he get that he might have "bigger" chores for that reason possibly? (And possibly has some privileges too like later bedtime.) Have you ever asked him why he hates it or what it is he hates about it? Some things are non-negotiable, you are the parent, at the same time changing things around, changing wording can help. What happens if he has breakfast first and chores second? Will he do them or will he ignore you because he has gotten what he wanted?

Depending on the age difference between your kids, he might need some special time with you, some fun stuff like Notrightinthehead suggests, and one size doesn't fit all necessarily as Hikercymru says. There are not only individual needs in the classroom, they might also happen at home. As somebody else asked, does he have issues in other social interactions like at school? Does he have friends? You might also talk to the school psychiatrist, if his school has one. It might be age or it might be something else, please don't panic, there is a lot between what you describe (and sounds utterly exhausting if you do this everyday or even several times a day) and having a PD.

Always remember, the key is to help him grow out of it. One of the problems with PDs is that they don't, that they get stuck at some emotional age in perpetual immaturity. This is why I see F as somebody stuck between 3 and 10 years old (3 on a bad day, 10 on a good day). For your son it will hopefully be a developmental stage and in a year you'll barely remember this problem.
If I'm not towards myself, who is towards myself? And when I'm only towards myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" (Rabbi Hillel)

"I can forgive, but I cannot afford to forget." (Moglow)

Heavenlymint

I totally hear what is going on with those conversations - they do start in the young child. My children did not respond well to extreme rules or limit setting and honestly neither did I since I had trouble enforcing them or the kids would burst out angrily and storm off or make a worse scene.  Regular parenting was not an option.

I have a friend who deals with her PD child with rules but they time themselves out such as: she has the WIFI shut off automatically for two hours after school and at bedtime (wish I had done this). Her children help with dinner because they are hungry and she says things like, well...come and help. If not supper is later, she may cook it later or leave it for them to start - yes even at 8 years they can unload dishwashers and help with cooking. 

My one child also has an immune condition and was super picky eater. I would never force or withhold food, but in the early days I tried whatever I could to get her to eat - she was literally starving herself because of the condition at a very young age. Eating disorders come in many shapes and sizes even in boys.  I would stick with the make thing fun and simple consequences.

In the end it was me who had to learn to deal with their behaviour and how to shut out the other parents who said I was too lenient - they of course did not have PD children. 

BTW, my children are both becoming young adults and are figuring things out for themselves with a lot less parenting support. I am truly, very proud of my little PD bumpkins:-)



Call Me Cordelia

Yikes, I'm sorry for neglecting this thread! Lots of thoughtful, helpful responses here. In summary, I do think we might be looking at some ADHD and anxiety issues with my son. I'm working on getting some outside help for him. Meanwhile:

Quote from: practical on January 17, 2019, 03:53:43 PM
Is he the eldest? If so does he get that he might have "bigger" chores for that reason possibly? (And possibly has some privileges too like later bedtime.) Have you ever asked him why he hates it or what it is he hates about it? Some things are non-negotiable, you are the parent, at the same time changing things around, changing wording can help. What happens if he has breakfast first and chores second? Will he do them or will he ignore you because he has gotten what he wanted?

Yep, eldest. He does get more chores and more privileges. Next sibling is 6, and I think the differences are age-appropriate. Why he hates it? "It just makes me feel weird. I don't want to talk about it." That's as far as I can get. So I resort to, "I'm sorry you hate it." I've tried just dropping the "Okay, Mommy," business but then the disrespectful attitude really takes off. I have to prescribe respect it seems. And you nailed exactly why we do chores before breakfast. He did have breakfast first and then would never do his chores.

Quote from: practical on January 17, 2019, 03:53:43 PMDepending on the age difference between your kids, he might need some special time with you, some fun stuff like Notrightinthehead suggests, and one size doesn't fit all necessarily as Hikercymru says. There are not only individual needs in the classroom, they might also happen at home. As somebody else asked, does he have issues in other social interactions like at school? Does he have friends? You might also talk to the school psychiatrist, if his school has one. It might be age or it might be something else, please don't panic, there is a lot between what you describe (and sounds utterly exhausting if you do this everyday or even several times a day) and having a PD.

Always remember, the key is to help him grow out of it. One of the problems with PDs is that they don't, that they get stuck at some emotional age in perpetual immaturity. This is why I see F as somebody stuck between 3 and 10 years old (3 on a bad day, 10 on a good day). For your son it will hopefully be a developmental stage and in a year you'll barely remember this problem.

I hope you're right about the developmental thing. Last school year he definitely had a lot more trouble with getting "stuck" after some undesirable event. Like he wanted to play a certain game at recess, but it was raining hard so they had to stay in and that ruined his whole day. Stuff like that. That's improved. This year it's more social stuff. He's well-liked and has friends, but he's internalizing a LOT. Like he'll be tapping on his desk while they are working on writing, and the girls next to him ask him to stop it. From there he assumes they don't like him. And then it's everybody in the class hates him and he's not feeling up to going to school. Sometimes I'm able to help him get some perspective via the Socratic method... And some days he has a great attitude. He needs validation at every turn, though. And growing up as I did, validating my children is something I have to do consciously anyway. It is exhausting.

Quote from: notrightinthehead on January 17, 2019, 01:24:43 AM
Cordelia, are you having fun with your 8 year old son? Are there times when you play together, enjoy each others' company? How does he behave then? I hope it is not all about chores and obedience.

We do.  :) When we're doing what he wants, life is grand.  ;) We do make an effort to have fun with our kids, as a family and one-on-one.

I think a more consistent routine would help him a lot... right now there are some stressful things going on and I think he is sensitive to that. Working on it! Thanks for all of your responses.

StayWithMe

When I read stuff like this, I always wonder how the parent treats the children who are obedient.  How do you equalize between one and the other?

bloomie

Call Me Cordelia - it is important to remember that many of the common traits we see are fairly normal developmentally for an 8 year old and helping them find alternative ways to cope and keeping a consistent line and boundaries with age appropriate consequences for acting out and disrespectful language or behaviors can go a long way to helping an 8 year old develop into a responsible adult.

QuoteHe needs validation at every turn, though.
This makes total sense when we look at the developmental tasks for children in that stage which are Industry versus Inferiority according to Erik Erickson's model. (https://courses.lumenlearning.com/teachereducationx92x1/chapter/eriksons-stages-of-psychosocial-development/) He is developing a sense of pride and accomplishment right now and also most likely comparing himself to his peers.

I would be very careful not to project too far into the future with these acting out behaviors. I agree with others who have mentioned how important it is for boys to spend time with safe, trustworthy men at this age as well.

I would also caution and say that the psychiatric community is fairly unwilling to diagnose children earlier than adolescence and even with adolescents recognize that is a time of vast developmental change and shifts. We want to be careful not to pathologize a range of fairly normal, though difficult, behaviors in an 8 year old.

I am so thankful that you are looking at all of the options and possible causes for this behavior and getting him some outside help. Very wise!
The most powerful people are peaceful people.

The truth will set you free if you believe it.

all4peace

CallmeCordelia, thank you for asking such an important question. It's painful and challenging to know what is normal for our children if we've grown up without any sense of normalcy ourselves. We can look to our parents, see the devastation their PD traits have wreaked in their lives and ours, and fear deeply that we and/or our children will have the same issues. I understand that anxiety from the inside out. I do believe, however, that we need to tread very carefully lest our anxieties are unfairly transmitted to our children.

I've recently finished a book called The Seven Desires of Every Heart. They are:
1. The desire to be heard and understood.
2. The desire to be affirmed.
3. The desire to be blessed (loved exactly as we are).
4. The desire to be safe.
5. The desire to be touched (physically, safely, nonsexually).
6. The desire to be chosen.
7. The desire to be included.

We all have them, from birth to death. I feel like a lot of what you describe of your son's behavior can be shown to be one of these desires.

I can only tell you my beliefs, based on my children and my life history. I have worked hard on letting go of control and needing my kids to be a certain way or to obey. The frank truth is that I cannot make them do anything. I can, however, let them know why I want what I want, and the consequences if they choose not to.

I try hard not to "pile on" the consequences, as this is one way my parents parented and I know the frustration and rage that builds inside a child when it seems they can never do it good enough, fast enough, obediently enough. I think that we need to let them choose the "wrong" way, let them deal with the consequences, and then struggle with our own internal discomfort when they choose "wrong." I have seen myself getting very frustrated as a parent when I wanted them to choose "right," when really a lot of that was me not wanting to face my own feelings if they didn't.

What I love about your example is that your son is really very good at communicating. He's telling you exactly how he feels, and why. If you can hold a safe space for those emotions, in your presence, hearing him, helping him process his anger and frustration as very normal experiences of being human, it can build the connection between you.

I believe it is very natural to want to be heard, to want what we want. It's the job of children, and also our job to teach them how to be part of a family and community. It's our job to find ways to do this with unconditional love and support, holding boundaries and expectations without shaming them.

I have found the Boundaries books to be excellent. There's one called Boundaries for Kids.
I also found Safe House to be an exceptional guide on parenting styles, including the pros, cons and long-term outcomes of various types of parenting. It's heavily research based and very readable. I highly recommend it.
Please remember to care for yourself also. Take deep breaths, nurture friendships, find time alone, have fun (lots of it!) with your kids. If possible, try to let go of fears that your child has a PD. Our kids can pick up on our beliefs about them, and we want them to be picking up on our belief that they are good, lovable, enjoyable, delightful little humans, and that even when we get frustrated with them (and they with us) our connection is safe, deep and long-lasting.

Hugs to you, mama. It's a hard, hard job, especially when we weren't modeled it well ourselves.

all4peace

I'd like to add another thought. It has been helpful to me very recently to learn about a personality typing system called the Enneagram. It is not typically suggested for children, as we can typecast them, or they can do so to themselves, and that's not an appropriate task for a child.

However, it helps me to understand that other adults and my own children may not necessarily see the world as I do at all. Here are some basic categories that can be very different in each person:
core fears
most important desire
introversion versus extroversion
energy level
feeling, thinking or body based way of being in the world
dependent, withdrawing or aggressive (moving towards) stances

Here's a basic article on this concept with children. Please scroll down until you get to the bolded areas: http://drdaviddaniels.com/articles/typing-and-children/

In our family, we have

one person who has low energy, introversion, highly perceptive and sensitive (likely misdiagnosed as add), withdrawing, very neutral and fair in relationships, desire for knowledge
another has low energy, protects internal equanimity above all else, withdrawing, introversion, not nearly as perceptive, desire for peace
one has high energy, aggressive stance (moving towards), needs to have high energy conflict met with someone who is able to take that energy without fighting it or fearing it, extroversion, joyful, desire for new experiences
another who is highly relational yet also introverted, highly perceptive and sensitive, people pleasing until exhausted, affected by other's emotions and trying to meet the needs of the highly diverse family members, desire for connection

So what worked for my son did not work for my daughter. It becomes a matter of really getting to know our children, trying to reach their hearts and minds while also holding a fair standard of behavior for them. I believe our ultimate goal is to prepare them for life--responsibility, care for others, care for themselves, integrity, joyfulness.  It's also a matter of knowing ourselves that "our stuff" doesn't become their stuff, unfairly. I have a high need for connection, and one of my children has a high need for solitude and privacy. If I allow my needs to supercede my child's, then I've abnormalized this precious human rather than realizing we're simply very different.

I hope I haven't overwhelmed you, Cordelia. I'm at the tail end part of parenting, not slogging through those tough years that you're in the middle of. If I could do it again, I would learn far sooner and pay far closer attention to who my children were, and be even more careful of honoring that in the context of peaceful and connected family relations.

Malini

Hi Callmecordelia,

Raising kids when your own childhood was abusive, toxic and dysfunctional can be really scary because you have no behaviours to model from and you're terrified of making the same mistakes your parents did. So we turn to specialists, books, teachers, peers in order to figure out how to do thes best job we can.

Growing up, my list of chores made Cinderella's life look like a joy ride, so when I had my children I had to figure out what expectations were appropriate for a small child. I have to say, I live in a country where "chores" are not a thing for children and also I worked part-time from home and didn't really NEED the kids to do anything apart from being responsible for their own stuff - tidying toys, tidying clothes, etc. From time to time I'd have a large workload and then they needed to step in and do a bit more, but there was a concrete reason for that.


Joey isn't responding well to your "trash can before breakfast" task. What a way to start the day for ALL of you, it must be so difficult to keep your patience, Joey is frustrated, maybe you sometimes get angry and he leaves the in a cloud of bad feelings in all sides.

Where I live, PD are not even part of diagnostics of children or young adults and professionals refuse to label behaviours until adulthood has been reached.My own sons, going through the teenage years could have had many NPD, even HPD traits assigned to them, but they were just teenagers, going through individuation, separating from us and finding themselves.

I get it that you see this behaviour and alarm bells go off because of your PD parents. Sure, my enNF  is stuck at about 8yrs old and my NM at about 13. But they're ADULTS who didn't evolve past these ages.

Our kids will act out where it feels safe and that is at home. If he is fine at school, fine on play dates, sports, music, kind to his siblings, etc his defiance and manipulation is "normal" childhood behaviour. Who never lied to get out of trouble? 

Joey sounds like an 8 yr old acting like an 8 yr old.

You are stuck in a power struggle with Joey, and you know who's going to win? Joey. Your consequences will get to a point where he won't be able to eat breakfast because he hasn't done his chores and how long are you going to hold out on this? I speak from experience with food issues with DS2. I had "read" that I should put a little bit of vegetable on each meal plate. I can't tell you how many meals were fraught because of 1 green pea. Meals that were supposed to be the time of coming together, sharing our day, reconnecting, all gone to pot because of a frigging pea. DS2 eats everything now and is a fantastic cook. What a waste of time based on what I'd read in a book.

What helped me rise above these power struggles, because I had them about food, homework, cleaning rooms, laundry, body hygiene (teenage boys :roll:), alcohol, drugs, was to think about the "reason/sense/values" of the boundaries and once that had been identified, to think about how to communicate them and what sort of consequences there would be.

What are you trying to teach him with this? Responsibility, the virtue of helping out? If this is so, maybe you can sit with him and find something he would "enjoy" doing more and something where he is validated when he does it well. If these are just dreamt up chores, focussed on things like obedience maybe it's time to ditch the book? The only time I ever needed my children to "obey" me was when their safety was an issue.

Raising children will always be an exercise in trial and error. For people like us, there is the added background of having grown up and suffered in a PDs environment. With hindsight, I'd say that although it presented me with many challenges with respect to parenting my own children, it also made me think more about how to be the best parent I could be (more than most of my friends were thinking about their parenting) and I think my kids benefitted from that.

This thread touched on issues I feel quite invested in so sorry for the lengthy reply. Questioning our own behaviour is a great gift to our children, as we, children of PDs, know only too well.


"How do you do it?" said night
"How do you wake and shine?"
"I keep it simple." said light
"One day at a time" - Lemn Sissay

'I think it's important to realise that you can miss something, but not want it back' Paul Coelho

'We accept the love we think we deserve' Stephen Chbosky

Mirsa

#14
Hi,

If you talk with his teacher(s), you should get a much bigger picture.  Are these types of power struggles happening at school too, because by third grade, they do become apparent.    Your morning expectation of him sounds completely fine, in my opinion .  He is choosing to turn it into a power struggle, and I wonder why.  I don't think you should change your expectation of him.  My guess is that he is going to turn just about everything into a power struggle, because that is what angry, difficult children do.  I raised two girls, and one always needed lots of time-outs, and the other one needed just the smallest suggestion to get her back on track, no time-outs.  Guess which one is the 17yo narcissist?

Get the school's insight as quick as you can and if you can manage it, get an IEP for him (if warranted).  That opens up a whole host of services and supports for both him and you.   If they can put him in a co-taught classroom, it might be structured in a way that helps him to feel safe and thrive, and you could also learn the things that help him self-regulate (prompts, pre-sets, choices, rewards, self-determination, etc.).    Either way, Hang on momma, you are probably in for a rocky ride.   Good luck!

Latchkey

This thread is locked pending moderator review as there have been multiple reports.
What is your plan to do with your one wild and precious life?
-Mary Oliver
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I can be changed by what happens to me but I refuse to be reduced by it.
-Maya Angelou
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When we have the courage to do what we need to do, we unleash mighty forces that come to our aid.

Spring Butterfly

Quote from: eclipse on August 12, 2014, 08:58:17 PM
While personality disorders are not clinically diagnosed in children, some traits of personality disorders can begin to manifest themselves from adolescence. Parents and family of children of all ages are welcome to share here. Please remember when dealing with minors it is especially important to consult with and follow the direction of an appropriately qualified mental health professional.
Every interaction w/ PD persons results in damage — prep beforehand and make time after to heal
blog for healing

Spring Butterfly

Moderator note: since we do not diagnose here on Out of the FOG please specify undiagnosed regarding PD by including "u" as in uPD or uNPD or uBPD and this is especially important with reference to young children.

See this forums sticky post here
https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=137.msg297336#msg297336

Please be mindful to acknowledge the person is not formally diagnosed, acknowledge you are amatuer diagnosing and help members who are reading the current nature of the PD or uPD person.

If the child or person is diagnosed please indicate for clarity.
Every interaction w/ PD persons results in damage — prep beforehand and make time after to heal
blog for healing