MIL possible Witch/Queen

[Sandrager]

Hi All ,
Been married 4 yrs and I have been noticing things / patterns. My MIL is judgemental/critical of my wife and I.  She will attack us emotionally either by way we live or appearance. Once when we had guests over my wife was talking with friends and she came up and told my wife she needs her hair done and she looks like a clown...our friends jaw dropped. She brings my wife to tears just happened yesterday. This weekend we were on vacation with friends and my wife cooked Saturday night dinner. Our friends wife ate said was good ( was mushroom alfredo pasta) but husband did not and said he wasn't hungry. Later in the evening about 9 he had a sandwich which we felt was a little rude. Who knows why maybe allergic to mushrooms or somethings. My wife asks MIL opinion bad idea. Her mom said they are they high class, with clean house,  eat healthy food. Insinuating we live like pigs and eat unhealthy we have a 18 month old toddler, work daily and run a business so yes we can't clean daily. MIL lives alone and has all the time in the world and no relationship.

She has said so many mean things I can't remember to my wife. My wife thinks she is a witch but she also displays Queen expecting everyone to do everything for her and very entitles.Because of argument yesterday plans changed for July. She was suppose to watch our toddler for our anniversary instead what does she do ? Scheduled a vacation back to her home country Guatemala 5 days before our anniversary just day after arguement. There is the witch being vengeful.

She also seems very immature emotionally wise. Example my wife's cousins were up from Guatemala whom we had not seen for 4 yrs. We all were vacationing in mountains , snowy and icey. We were at a restaurant she was drinking gets a little drunk, was dark outside and 25F and decides she is going to walk home to get some excercise. We all get worried and have a argument about it worrying she could slip especially after drinking. We go back to the cabin. The plan was for her to watch our toddler and cousins 5yr so my wife could have some time with her cousins. Nope she goes into her room and pretends to be sleeping. This is a beautiful town at night lots of christmas lights etc so my wife was looking forward to show her cousin but that vacation was ruined. I ended up taking them out since I am the only one that has experience driving on ice my wife stayed at cabin. MIL comes out 10 minutes after I leave to watch cousins 5yr. That will be last vacation with MIL and wont allow her to drink around us anymore.

anyway thinking about consequences if she insults or judges going NC possibly 3 months. 1 month don't think is long enough . Seeing everyone's experiences after 15 + yrs need to start setting consequences like a child. I am frustrated is so hard to standby and do nothing while my wife is emotionally abused I am the typical guy need to fix it so my instinct / subconcious is kicking in when my wife is venting and doesn't want me to react. In addition I am not fluent in spanish since my wife has very good english. Alot of the time my wife is being abused and I don't know until she has left.    My wife's comments last night to me my week has been ruined.....

Your thoughts ?

[Pepin]

anyway thinking about consequences if she insults or judges going NC possibly 3 months. 1 month don't think is long enough . Seeing everyone's experiences after 15 + yrs need to start setting consequences like a child.

Welcome!  I think you are on the right track with your closing statements.  As for NC, no need to set a time limit....just do it and see what happens. 

It seems that your MIL is unreliable so therefore, don't bother using her for future childcare.  Find someone else that you know and trust.  Similar to you, taking PDmil on vacations with us proved to be a horrible idea.  After coming to that realization I put my foot down with DH and said no more vacations with her.  And he finally agreed.  If you have to return from a vacation exhausted because of including an inlaw, forget it!!!

Going forward you and your wife will need to be firm on boundaries that you both agree on.  By going NC with your MIL, be prepared for the flying monkeys to come out of the woodwork and for the gaslighting from anyone your MIL will enlist, including herself.  NC means not responding to anything.  ZERO.

It is sad that PDs behave the way that they do.  As a parent myself I just cannot imagine behaving this way if I get to be a grandma.  I would do whatever it takes to make my adult children's lives easier under their direction!!! 

My 2 cents: surround yourself with those that love and care for you only.  Your toddler will only be young once -- and all the other stages that follow.  Don't allow your MIL blow that for you like mine did.  FYI, my kids figured out on their own about PDmil and they don't care for her one bit. 

[qcdlvl]

 

I'm sorry you're going through this.
I would add that IMO toxic people (as your MIL clearly is) shouldn't have unsupervised contact with one's kids - she could badmoth you and/or your wife, undermine your values or your parenting, lie to or otherwise manipulate your kid, etc.
Be prepared for FMs, smear campaigns, etc.

[boots40]

Hi and welcome!

Firstly before you do anything you should stop all child care with your MIL, don't give her anything that she can hold over you, you want to be as independent of her as possible.  Secondly, you might want to try VLC (very low contact) before NC which basically gives you breathing space to practice firm boundaries without becoming overwhelmed.  If that doesn't work for you or she consistently manages to side-step your boundaries absolutely go no-contact. 

From your description it sounds as though you are communicating far too much with your MIL (I used to do this and invited a lot of criticism into my life).  You don't have to discuss anything with her.  Keep conversations as positive as possible, if she makes a derogatory remark change the subject and do not respond.  Only talk about the good stuff.  You could restrict communication to once a month for example (technology makes it easy to ignore people these days) and do not allow her to your house unless specifically invited (that might be a great new rule to practice boundaries).

Generally speaking with PDs getting into confrontations, or even trying to meet them half way on anything can lead to a whole load of drama and stress - you basically cannot win.  So best to make the decision to not get drawn into any goading.

'you need a haircut!'
reply 'the weather is cold today don't you think? How is [such and such] have you heard from them recently?'

Segue your way around the insult to let her know you don't care what she thinks without engaging in confrontation and drama.

[daughter]

Yes, despite financial cost, please stop using MIL for childcare.  It's important to remove that "leverage-control" MIL is exercising whenever her malevolent mood strikes, and eventually that same sharp criticism/malice is exercised on the kids and your parental authority-bond too.  Some new boundaries are needed here, less reliance on MIL's babysitting, more personal privacy (non-disclosure of stuff) between your household and MIL.

Some of this "overbearing plain-spoken demanding MIL" situation maybe cultural expectation that "Mother remains Boss of her Adult-Children", which was an acknowledged element in my own pd-disordered malevolent NBM's and enabler-enforcer NF's sense of self-entitlement "to say and do whatever we want because we're your parents", even after I was a middle-aged mother, wife, and white-collar professional still receiving "advice" from my parents on ALL TOPICS, large and small, whether they had experience or knowledge on topic, or not.  Lots of meddling, lots of criticisms, lots of "how dare you do something we don't endorse!" inappropriate and invasive control-mongering.   

[Sandrager]

Morning All ,
First wow appreciate all the support was not expecting this. All replies so much appreciated and helpful, thank you for your time. What typically happens same routine MIL gets pissed for some reason most of the time not intended and even if she initiated the attack plays the victim. they NC for few days to few weeks then no apology and life goes on then cycle repeats after a month or less. The light bulb event happened Monday when I was going through the forum, I senses about 6 month to 1yr ago there was something off based on patterns. My MIL and wife relationship MIL treats her more like a friend and says or does things to my wife even worse than a friend would do with no regret. the problem is MIL is my wife;s main support. My wife moved here with me 4 yrs ago , MIL here 10 years. So wife has of course made some friends but not of course the ones you can really trust and know your whole life. Her moms side in Guatemala are very close but gossip much and cause drama so she doesn't feel too comfortable talking to them especially about her mom. Wife and mom msg back and forth several times a day....my wife is like a counselor to her MIL having work problems with friends or boss which I think is somewhat normal but MIL has lots of problems with work.

I tried speaking with wife about this last night and she said she is my mom and will always be like this. My response is we can't keep going through the same patters and told her I hate to see her upset and go through same cycles. She agreed can't tell her everything anymore since you are just setting yourself up.  My wife already includes her in alot since MIL just has friends up here and feels bad for her being lonely so agreed we have to be more careful what we invite her on, my wife has a heart of gold and very humble so don't think much will change but need to set bounderies in place. Agreed on vacations and and inviting her places. I think going VLC is a start also agreed on finding a babysitter there were choices she made with my wife growing up that are shocking. All I have to say is I am grateful she made it through childhood.

Valentines day is coming up and wife had already mentioned last week about going with her and our toddler to dinner and us on a different day. Also the opinions do help and just me venting helps. Before we were married when I was single I already deleted alot of toxic people socially. This one I can't and we are not in a place where I think we need to but seeing other people going through this never ending cycle I want to do something but is difficult especially in a latin culture where families are very close. The comments about her attacks to get a reaction and to change subject will need to start practicing that thanks.

[openskyblue]

Valentines day is coming up and wife had already mentioned last week about going with her and our toddler to dinner and us on a different day.

My heart goes out to you and your wife. It sounds like you are getting yourself Out of the FOG, but your wife is still very much in the fog. That makes sense, because it is her mother who has the PD. It's much harder to make boundaries with a parent than an inlaw, spouse, or friend.

You can, however, make your own boundaries -- and Valentine's Day gives you a good chance to do this. Valentine's Day is really a holiday for couples. It's not a holiday that people spend with their MIL -- not even a MIL they love to be around. I think you would be in your rights to say to your wife that you just want to spend an evening with her on Valentine's Day. Then, make a date for you and your wife at a nice restaurant, find a babysitter, and go -- just the two of you. In this way, you are showing your wife how to make a boundary with her mother, but not making this an issue about your MIL. You just want to spend a nice evening with your wife. If your MIL makes trouble, your wife can just blame it on you. I betting most of the people around you will understand a couple wanting a night alone without the little one around.

As much as you can encourage your wife to make new friends here, I think that would really help her. This may mean that you might need to watch your child over some weekends or evenings, so your wife can go out with her friends. The more she has her own safety net of girlfriends, the less she will be dependent on her mother for help or social interaction.

Good luck to you both!

[Alexmom]

I am sorry you are going through this.  I married a man that was overly attached to his parents (mom especially) and felt unhealthily responsible for them due to how he was raised.  He was also treated like his mom's friend.  In fact, she used to call him her "best friend" starting when he was a little boy.  She also confided in him and in essence put him in charge as his dad worked long hours and she was very incapable of handling day-to-day life.  They were also immigrants.   

I made the mistake of marrying my DH before he took steps to separate from his parents and live a more autonomous and independent life.  He literally went from his parents home to our marital home.  We've been married 23 years now and are almost done raising our 3 kids.  However, this dynamic of my DH and his parents overly involved relationship created a lot of stress in our marriage and in looking back was the number #1 source of the problems in our marriage.  During our marriage we took steps to protect our marriage from the IL's which you are now starting to do, and I encourage you to continue to do.  DH and I reduced his parents involvement with our kids, moved away, and limited the info we told them.  Unfortunately this was still not enough so I went NC with my IL's.  My DH still has a relationship with his dad - his mom passed last year.

I learned from all of this that until DH and I put each other above all others as we stated in our vows and listened to each other and what our needs were and distanced ourselves from the interlopers in our marriage, called our IL's, we would never have a strong marriage.  This would apply to you and your DW as well.  I wish you luck in this journey which is not an easy one.  I do think it involves a lot of difficult conversations with your DW about leaving and cleaving and loyalty to a spouse above all others and what a healthy relationship with a mom looks like then taking active steps to protect your marriage from negative influences such as your MIL.

[openskyblue]

Sandrager, I hope things went better this week.

I think a Valentine's date night might be a nice break for you and your wife -- and a positive way to make a boundary with your MIL. But, of course, it has to be something that feels right for you both.   No pressure.  It sounds like your wife has plenty of pressure coming at her already from her mother.  Certainly, it wouldn't be fair to add to that.

[Rose1]

It's an interesting point that this could be about divide and conquer. It does appear from the description that the principle of "leave and cleave" needs firming up.
I find it hard to get my head around the mil actually thinking Valentine's day is about her. Whether you celebrate it or not, the advertising should be clear enough. So what is this about? Husband is second in the relationship screams out to me.
Yes, asking to be first in the relationship will put pressure on the wife. Boundaries will too. However the alternative is to eventually have a dead marriage.
Certainly it can be done gently but there's no getting away from the fact that in a marriage it can be me or mother.
In my case I was married to exbpdh for 23 years. Despite lip service to leave and cleave, when mother was in the room there were only the two of them and it got worse. Not only did I feel like there was another woman in the marriage eventually, she was emboldened by exhs attention to up her treatment of me so that I eventually became "that woman you married". Did this cause problems in our marriage? You bet.
I am firmly convinced that their lack of respect towards me as daughter in law and mother of theit grandchildren rubbed off on my ex and contributed to his eventual lack of respect to me and to our marriage. He eventually left and went back home to mother. I refused to have him back. This was a huge shock to him as it turned out because I think he had come to believe that I could be treated like dirt and would just suck it up because I had no boundaries.
Eventually his treatment of me forced boundaries and ended the marriage. If he had put the marriage first before mother its unlikely that would have happened.

[Rose1]

Must say I agree. Boundaries are not punishment. Although the difficulty is that no one can make boundaries for someone else. So the boundary can't be "wife you need to start saying no to mother". The boundary needs to be more like "I would like to spend the day with you but if not, maybe next year make better arrangements" not oh ok I'll go another night.

What happens on the wedding anniversary?  If it stays like "mother comes first" then I see it as inevitable that bad feelings start to develop. It was when I started to put in boundaries that the marriage went downhill. Do I blame the boundaries? No. It was the fear of this that stopped me but the result was that I was a doormat for longer and it got worse.

No one ever appreciated my compliance. It was seen as a sign of weakness and an invitation for more trampling. My boundary was that I would no longer jump to compliance after an abuse session. Not advertised, I just did it. So no more bpd abuse and then come over for dinner. That kind of thing. Do I got the "delegation" to ask how much longer I was going to dig my heals in. Exh sided with mother and also started to become very attentive to anything in a skirt, preferably in front of me.

This and other behaviour including some physical abuse got me to the point I was glad to see the back of him. But this wasn't a 5 minute reaction. It was the slow death by a thousand cuts over years.

And that is the risk you take if your marriage is not put first.

[Spring Butterfly]

Welcome. Your situation closely mirrors ours except years ago before we were Out of the FOG.

My spin: Take your wife's head in your hands, look into her eyes and tell her she deserves so much better than she's been treated.

Leave and cleave isn't wrong, it's how things were intended. Children are supposed to grow up and leave home. Children aren't responsible for the happiness of their parents. But you know all that. How to reach your wife's heart?

Your wife seems open to building a life with you so work from there. She can accept this is how her mother is, we can't change others and that's healthy. At the same time she has the right to reduce her exposure to the damage.

Bit by bit try to unenmesh your MIL from your life, like trying to untangle many strings you'll have to work one of them out of the bundle. Check out the Trait "Engulfing" for some insight.

If you haven't already check the Toolbox at the top of the forum for tips and methods that have worked for others.

[moglow]

It's never easy to stand up to an overbearing and entitled parent, even as adults. I'm sure like many of us, your wife was taught "thats just how she is and it's easier to go along than face her wrath when you don't." Sounds good on paper, but as you've pointed out, the witch side is vindictive and spiteful without any real provocation, and you never know what will trigger it. Plus she's likely being told repeatedly that mother comes first - no concessions for her as an adult with a husband, family and home of her own.

As her husband, all you can really do is support your wife and draw lines where you can. But you start small, I would think. What if you talked with your wife about Valentine's day, tell her it's been weighing on your mind and you would like her to talk with you first, before making special date plans in future. It's a simple courtesy and respect that every couple should share. She likely felt backed into a corner by her mother and went with path of least resistance, I totally see how that could happen. But, as her husband, you've effectively been cut out of a date specifically celebrating couples.

Could you ask your wife if she'd mind if you took point and spoke to her mother, expressing your desire to spend Valentine's with your wife and delaying *their* celebration for another time? I wouldn't go behind her back or throw down ultimatums, but let her know how this is bothering you and that you'd be glad to face her mother's wrath. I know it would be uncomfortable for your wife regardless, cancelling their plans, but if you were to step in maybe it would change things? I'm sure her mother would resent it either way but at least a step was taken in a different direction and you're showing by word and deed that your priority is your wife.
There aren't easy answer or an easy path, I'm afraid. But maybe the two of you can work together to find a better one - and isn't that what marriage is all about?

[mayaberry]

You've received lots of great advice and I can't really add much more but I just wanted to say that when reading your posts, the red flag for me was how often your wife and mil were communicating. I think it's really important that your wife is helped to meet new people so that she is not so dependent on your mil for social contact and support.
I have seen this pattern of dependence within my H's family and that is just their way of controlling the family, it has nothing to do with them not having outside friendships. Nmil and nsil just believe that their relationship is the most important of all and all immediate family must be in constant contact and should be available to each other at all times. Their relationship should always be prioritised. It definitely stunted H in many ways growing up and is a cause of many issues and arguments now. I wonder if your mil is doing a similar thing and is actually quite happy that your wife has few other supports. I doubt she will help her to make any new friends and risk losing her relying on her so I think it's really important that you try to help your wife do this.
My in laws talk to each several times a day on the phone as well as seeing each other every single day. They literally have to know where every member of the family is at all times and who they are with and what they are doing. We broke out of that by moving away but it was so difficult to set boundaries and move forwards while we lived near them and there was this expectation to be in their pockets all the time.
I would just be wary of how much your mil might using this situation to her advantage and how much she is really encouraging your wife to build a life separate from her.
My nmil constantly complains that her son had abandoned her. He hasn't. He just doesn't call her ten times a day.
Good luck!