Which wrong thinking is your PDs favorite?

[VeryUncertain]

I read "Thinking Fast & Slow" and I highly recommend it, but I've noticed that in PDs it's not biased thinking that's the problem, it's just plain bad/wrong thinking.

My discussions with PDs result in them spewing a lot of fallacies.  I can't tell whether they believe themselves, not realizing these are fallacies, or whether they don't care and just use them as a way to try to sidetrack the conversation or overwhelm you with nonsense, maybe both.

The most common one I've encountered goes something like this:

You're a perfectionist and therefore what you are asking for will never be enough for you, and we won't get anywhere, so there's no point in trying.

This contains so many fallacies it's actually hard to keep track of, but:

Begging the question:  This assumes the conclusion that I'm a perfectionist, which is not open to debate: (no, I just want x. x won't be enough for you.  so we assume both premise and the conclusion as fact.)

False Dilemma: Assuming I'm a perfectionist creates a false dilemma as being the only option provided to describe me and what I want.  This is also known as splitting. 

Ad hominem fallacy: This is an attack on my character, rather than a discussion of the underlying issue. So it's possible that I have whatever flaw you accuse me of, and yet I'm still correct.

Non-sequitur: Even perfectionists accept perfection, so "never enough" doesn't follow. For example if I tell you what I want from you, and you do exactly as I ask, that is perfection. So you're really assuming that I'm an insane perfectionist.

Non-sequitur: Even If it's true that nothing will ever be ever enough, it still doesn't mean "we won't get anywhere" because the attempt will move the conversation, and at least you could say "I did exactly what you asked and it didn't get us anywhere."

More circular reasoning: clearly we would get somewhere so this is again assuming we will get nowhere, but also that even if we get nowhere, the point in trying is to help me see that we got nowhere, so this conclusion fails too.

What's your favorite nonsense?

[VeryUncertain]

Ok, how about:

Since you said I have shortcomings it means you hate me, and I won't talk to you when you're so full of hate.

Non-sequitur & false equivalence: Being critical is not the same as and does not imply being full of hate.

Splitting: Completely uncritical adoration is not love it is worship, and only God gets to be worshiped, and we sometimes even question Him. So the choice is not limited the extreme of hate vs. worship -- I can love you and still need you to change some things for me.

Begging the question:  Using an assumed conclusion (hateful) to reach a further conclusion (I won't discuss it).

Here's a good list. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/thoughts-thinking/201708/18-common-logical-fallacies-and-persuasion-techniques

I also find that when cornered, PDs tend to just throw out a boatload of garbage and try and drag in all the nonsense they've ever come up with just to make further discussion impossible.  In the end, they just don't care about what you think or how you feel, so the bad logic is an attempt to bully.

[11JB68]

When I had a long talk with ds21 this summer about uPDh, ds commented on one of updhs frequent comments that it's a tu quo que,logical fallacy.
Hypocrisy.
Updh is often a hypocrite.

[Starboard Song]

Enabler: "This is not about facts. It is about feelings. You have to deal with the emotions involved."

PD: "I feel that [insert fact assertion]."

Me: "I understand you are hurt, and am sympathetic. But that fact assertion isn't true. I can kindly explain what really happened."

Enabler: "How dare you harrass her and tell her she has no right to feel the way she does?!?"


[REPEAT AS THOUGH IT IS NECESSARY]

[Sophie48]

I wouldn't say these were favorites, but they do fit the "nonsense" part. This is a simplistic rundown, but my mother has expressed the following;

1. You didn't make it to the family get-together, therefore, your ultimate goal is never to see me again. You plan on abandoning me. You hate our family.

2. You missed your brother's visit (I was on a trip that had been planned months before he announced he was coming, and had been paid for with no refund available.) You hate your brother. You hate all of us.

3. You didn't email me back by the end of the day, so I know something is very wrong, and I should be worried about you. Or, you're just rude, and plan to abandon me. I annoy you.

4. If your tastes differ from mine, you are putting me down and judging me negatively.

5. I know you better than you know yourself, in fact, I know your thoughts. And you are full of hatred for me.

6. Our family is superior to other families. We are different. But, other people don't understand that, so they think we are worse, which makes it true. We are worse and superior than everyone else, simultaneously. That's why things don't work out for any of us. Because we are different.

7. When something bad happens to you, I feel worse than you about it, because I'm your mom.

8. I wish you and your siblings communicated more with each other. But, I expect all your communication to go through me.

9. I'll explain to you how you feel and why.

10. You don't want that, you just like the idea of that. You don't know what you like or want. I'll tell you.

11. You did exactly as I asked. But, you must have done it with hate, because your heart is full of hate.

12. You have no idea how much I love your children.

13. You are so full of hate that you're destroying our family.

14. You did that perfectly. That makes it too perfect. Which means imperfect. Which means it's not good enough.

Sorry this got so long! I think it was therapeutic for me to write it down. The scary thing is, I could go on and on. But, basically, everything comes back to me being full of hate.

[VeryUncertain]

Sophie48, you have me in stitches / tears.

"When something bad happens to you, I feel worse than you about it, because I'm your mom."

It's always all about them...

Too funny / sad.

[Call Me Cordelia]

"You're better than everybody else, because you're smarter than everybody else, and they all hate you because they're jealous. You should be proud everybody at school hates you. You shouldn't ever care what anybody else thinks. Except your parents."

Even as a child I would think this was stupid. The real goal was to turn off my emotional pain. The real message I received was I don't get to be vulnerable, ever. Turn off those emotions because nobody will ever care. Least of all your parents. Emotions are for the weak. There's something wrong with me and it can never be fixed. So suck it up, buttercup. Just turn yourself off and be and do exactly what we tell you.

Writing this now is really hard... I've done so much analyzing and understanding over the last year but that toxic shame is still there. It's really hard to admit that I'm not okay. That I'm grieving and that is okay. I don't really believe that it's okay for me to grieve. I've always had to be strong. I needed to be strong for my parents and now I need to be strong for my kids. I feel like I've been permanently messed up. Damaged goods. All the good friends and kind people I've been blessed to know... I don't deserve it. I wouldn't blame them in the least for saying "Cordelia's got issues and I'm tired of helping her." Never mind that I would and have done the same for them. That's only my duty. My job is to help everybody else. That's why I'm allowed to exist. I earn my keep. Always. And if I stop earning it, who would stick around?

I've never known what it's like to feel worthy. Worthy of love. Of recognition and appreciation. Of unconditional caring. Oh, sure, I'm nice-looking, intelligent, good cook, artistic. But so dang awkward. I have only very rarely felt like I even belong. And even then it's not far from my consciousness to wonder how long it will last.

[Sophie48]

 
Call Me Cordelia,
You deserve all the good things life has to offer, absolutely!

[Call Me Cordelia]

Thanks for saying that, Sophie. 

Felt good to put down that mess of false belief.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Another one of my father's favorite sayings: "There is no reality, only perception."

This would be trotted out when his alternative facts didn't square with mine. Gaslighting omg.

[Sophie48]

 

Sounds like he spent a lot of time watching "The Matrix"—probably a great resource for him 

("There is no spoon" seems to apply to everything when a pd is involved!)

[1footouttadefog]

Black and white thinking and all or nothing thinking are my pdh favorites

[artfox]

My unBPD mom is convinced that her family shunned her because she divorced and remarried. She often crows about my cousin being married for a second time. I want to point out to her (but I don't want the shitstorm that would go with it), that the issue wasn't the divorce--it was that her second husband was a scary sociopath.

[all4peace]

"Family is everything"
You hurt ME, and that's totally unrelated to how much I hurt you for years, abusively, violently. (my parents)
Love is something you say, not something you do (both sets of parents)
Reality is whatever we want it to be. It is unrelated to observable facts. (both sets of parents)
Life is a zero-sum game. If you have something, then I can't, so I hate you for having it (uNBPDmil)
Life is about power and control. If I'm not controlling you, then you must be controlling me, and that's intolerable (uNBPDm)
If you look away, close your ears and refuse to see something, it doesn't exist (enF and enFIL)
You do not have humanity, your own needs, your own rights (both sets of parents)
The past is in the past. The past is whatever we say it is. The past is relevant when it suits us, invisible when it doesn't. If you remember the past, you are holding a grudge and not "growing." If we remember the past, there's a valid reason (my parents)
If you tell us very clearly, repeatedly, what you see as the problem in our relationship, you are lying or crazy. Because it doesn't make sense to us, you must be making it up or trying to upset us. It's not that you think differently, it's that something isn't adding up. Instead of the XYZ things you tell us are the problem, it MUST actually be ridiculous, ancient abc reasons instead, which is what we will tell people who ask. Even though XYZ is in writing, repeatedly, clearly. (both sets of parents)

I could go on, but it's a little triggering.

[VeryUncertain]

I feel like it's a good thing that I can laugh when reading these, but I'm not sure about that. I'm laughing thinking "right!?!? who DOES THAT?" and then I remember who does that.

all4peace, yup: "If you remember the past, you are holding a grudge and not "growing." If we remember the past, there's a valid reason (my parents)"

About zero-sum game.  I feel like that's not it, it seems more childish and vindictive. Like: if you have something, you don't deserve it because you're inferior, and I'll take it away. If I have something which you want, ha-ha, you'll never get it, even if it's something like affection or appreciation which I could give for free.

[blacksheep7]

My widowed PDM.

You're looking for problems when there are some in the world  that are worst right now.

You didn't want to talk to me so I just didn't call.

You're not feeling well.

So that's it, as parents we did nothing right.

[11JB68]

Projection is a huge one.

[truthseeker4life]

PD mom saying,
"It's your job to have a relationship with me. It is always the child's job to have a relationship with their parent."
And she means it! (Stopped contacting her in March 2016 and she hasn't contacted me other than her yearly birthday wish and the occasional death or illness notice which she has also stopped)

I want our family to be close but none of the siblings can be closer to each other than they are to me. In fact if you siblings hang out with each other alone without me present I get jealous and harass you for it so you won't do it again. (4 siblings barely talk to each other)

[truthseeker4life]

Had to add another good one
"Your father's death doesn't affect you, I'm the spouse and my life is forever changed."

[scapegoatnumerouno]

Younger Nsister sends me a NASTY text message which informs me that she is "re-baptizing" my 9 year old niece due to me being such a horrible person.  (brothers are new FAIRY GOD PARENTS)  I forward this terrible hurtful text to my mother (turns out mother had read it weeks before and knew it was going to be sent to me, dear mom threw the baptism after party also!).  So I forward my sisters horrible text to me mother, whos house my husband and I left 1.5 hours earlier.  My mothers response "you don't know how much this hurts me".  REALLY????????????? 


This is what some one else wrote and is SOOO  fitting with my mother also :  " I want our family to be close but none of the siblings can be closer to each other than they are to me. In fact if you siblings hang out with each other alone without me present I get jealous and harass you for it so you won't do it again. (4 siblings barely talk to each other)"

My mother has said several times "I just want to be one of you kids" (she has 6 adult children).  I actually took the time once to explain to her how being the mother of us 6 kids is actually a bigger honor.  UUUUUGGGGGHHHH  The breath I wasted!