Setting boundaries

[Spirit in the sky]

Hi, I'm new here.

I don't really know the technical terms for my mother in law but she has been making my life a misery for years. In the beginning she seemed ok, but gradually she started making unkind remarks about my appearance and criticising me. I had a difficult childhood with a co-dependent mother and have always avoided conflict, so I tried to ignore the hurt comments.
Over the years she has used me to control and manipulate my husband because of my fear or conflict and confrontation I foolishly went along with it. My husband has been blind to all this until recently when he started suffering from depression and he realised his mother and her attitude were making him anxious. She would criticise other members of the family and try to get him to side with her, her husband agrees with everything she says and does.
My husband has been trying to stand up to her, but she twists things and calls him a trouble maker, she swears and screams down the phone. Then texts me telling me to sort things out and make him see sense.
He decided to go no contact and it has been a nightmare, abuse phone calls, upcasting things from the past but twisting the truth. She has been texted me demanding me to tell him to talk to her, I said no I wasn't being piggy in the middle anymore and she lost it. Yelling at me, saying I had shown my true colours and how dare I speak to her like that. I wasn't rude, I politely asked her not to involve me.

Now my husband and I are worried what she'll do next.

[Malini]

Hi Spiritinthesky and welcome to Out of the FOG.

It doesn't truly matter what your MiL is suffering from, many of us here have undiagnosed PD people in our lives, however, you might find the toolbox helpful in understanding what PD she may be suffering from and some  do's and dont's that you haven't thought of

More importantly is the effect her behaviour is having on you and your DH, both individually and as a couple.

I worried a lot, in the beginning, about what my NM "would do next" until I understood that I couldn't control her behaviour one tiny bit. So I focussed on my own behaviour and thought what I could do to minimise the damage she wreaked on my wellbeing.

I think I'd start by blocking her communications and not engaging with any of her nonsense for a while, in order to bring a bit of calm into your lives while you figure out how to move forward.

Be prepared to be stalked, harassed, smeared to all and sundry and perhaps even disinherited, as this is often the way the disordered people in our lives react when we set the most simple of boundaries.

I saw you already posted on the unsent letter board, which was a really helpful tool for me when I first came here.  You will find a lot of advice, more tools and support on these boards and I'm glad you found us.

Hugs of support.

[Spirit in the sky]

Thank you Malini,

Just reading other people's posts have helped. I thought I was going mad because non of it makes any sense. There is no rational behaviour or moral compass, and I do fear what she will do next. I'm trying not to think too much, but I am off work with stress so this doesn't help.

My husband thinks he can make her understand his point of view, but so far that hasn't worked so we tried no contact. I suppose it's harder for him, I can detach my emotions because she's not my mother. But he struggles to accept the facts.

It's made harder by the fact we live in a small village, so he thought low contact would be an option, I think that actually made her worse because no one tells her what she can and can't do.

I'm trying to carry on as normal but we are always waiting for something to happen, I guess I am a natural worrier.

[Starboard Song]

Come on, now. Tell the truth. Your MIL is really my MIL, right?

I just want you to know that that is how well I recognize your plight.

In our case, we were the ones that got rejected: they went NC with us, sort of. We took the idea and ran with it. I agree with Malini about blocking any means of communication which is used abusively. We told me in-laws that they could call me at any time on my mobile phone, but that their phones and email addresses were blocked and we would not read, receive, or accept cards, gifts, or letters.

It sounds like you guys are not necessarily done-done. That you are testing these waters trying to find calm. If you get done-done, like we did, that is an honorable position. But your experience is spot on: going NC is fighting words in any language, and it ratchets up the hostility. So it is worth playing with a VVLC approach, perhaps, that gives her some contact but tolerates no abuse. It sounds like any approach will need constrained modes of communication.

Here's a truth: however this works out for you, it may feel like DH has lost his mom. Even if you maintain some contact, for peace's sake, it may feel to him that the role of Mother is vacant. That will come with a complex grief that may be hard to recognize or understand. You can be instrumental in helping him spot it. He may already be feeling this way.

I'm so sorry for this turmoil. Just remember -- if you do get done-done and need real-and-we-mean-it NC -- that this forum is packed with those of us who survived the turmoil and rage, and got through it, and consider our lives better than before.

[Spirit in the sky]

Thanks Starboard,

I think my husband is clinging on to the hope she will see sense and act like a normal person. I mentioned in another post they had a very enmeshed relationship, she left his father when he was a teenage and his brother left home and moved to France.
His brother has very little contact and only visits twice a year, which he finds very stressful but knows he can escape back home.

I know her next step will be to accuse me of turning my husband against her, because I refused to take sides. I honestly believe she will never accept no contact, I have seen how she has hounded other family members for years. She treats everyone like puppets and plays with them until she gets bored then moves onto her next victim. Just when you think thy have escaped she worms her way back in again with emotional blackmail.

[Summer Sun]

Spiritinthesky, just wanted to add my welcome.  Sorry you are in this position, stressful to say the least. 

For me, when FOO PD behaviors started to impact my mental health, I had to examine the pros and cons of NC.  It is an individual choice and not for everyone.  Many can "manage" the relationship with strong boundaries and MC with VLC. 

Like your DH, I, being a rational, caring type of person, an open communicator, always thought I could reason with FOO PD's.  I was never heard though.  My POV was never a consideration.  In short, what I'd end up doing is JADEing.  I learned this does not work.  I no longer Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain.  It feels cold, I am short, to the point, or now NC, this seems the only language my PD's get, and they don't like that either.  IME, it is No Win.  And a set up.  Someone has to be SG, I picked the short straw.

Wishing you strength, support, wisdom formthe journey.  Hugs to you.

Summer Sun

[Griffen]

I think my husband is clinging on to the hope she will see sense and act like a normal person. I mentioned in another post they had a very enmeshed relationship, she left his father when he was a teenage and his brother left home and moved to France.
His brother has very little contact and only visits twice a year, which he finds very stressful but knows he can escape back home.

Is there any chance of getting your DH to come here and get some perspective? Because it sounds like he really, really needs some. 

I know her next step will be to accuse me of turning my husband against her, because I refused to take sides. I honestly believe she will never accept no contact, I have seen how she has hounded other family members for years. She treats everyone like puppets and plays with them until she gets bored then moves onto her next victim. Just when you think thy have escaped she worms her way back in again with emotional blackmail.

Until your husband decides he's done putting up with his mother's nonsense, you may have to set boundaries with him along the lines of "If you decide to spend time with your mother, I will not be part of it. She is not allowed in our home. If you want to talk to her, you go to her. If you want to talk with her on the phone, use your mobile and leave the house."

One thing that's been helping me is Byron Katie's distinction between "my business" and "their business." Your husband's relationship with his mother is his business, not yours. If you choose not to speak to your MIL, that's your business, not his. As Byron Katie puts it, "If your husband is enmeshed with his mother and you're trying to manage or fix that, where are you? In his business. Who's taking care of your business?"

Your business is to take care of you. If your MIL tries to demand entry to the house, she's trespassing - call the police and have her removed. If your husband has a problem with it, he needs to find ways to deal with that problem that don't harm you. He needs to take care of his business.

[Griffen]

Another insight I just got from a podcast on boundaries...

Boundaries are a statement of what you will and will not tolerate. But they have to be about your actions, not about the other person.

Manipulation is a statement that tries to make the other person responsible for your feelings.

So a boundary would be, "If you raise your voice at our holiday dinner table, I will ask you to leave."

Manipulation would be, "If you raise your voice at our holiday dinner table, everyone's going to be upset and angry and think you're a rotten person who spoils the party."

In your situation, the boundary would be, "If you call me to demand that I mediate between you and my husband, I will say no and I will hang up the phone."

Manipulation would be "If you call me to demand that I mediate between you and my husband, I will be very hurt and offended."

See, the PD person won't care that they're offending you. So manipulation doesn't work. But boundaries do - even though the PD person may see it as manipulation, because they can't stand boundaries.

Another way to set a boundary: "We will not interact with you unless there is a neutral third party, like a therapist, present for the conversation."

The thing about boundaries is that you must, must, must follow through on the consequences you've set. Otherwise, it's not a boundary. It's just a suggestion, and the other person will ignore it until you actually follow through.

You've indicated that your MIL will get up in everyone's faces if she doesn't get what she wants. It also appears that a lot of people are enabling her in that behavior, including your DH, and that she won't stop until someone actually steps in and stops her.

So, if your MIL shows up on your doorstep, don't open the door, and if she won't leave, call the police to remove her, because she's trespassing. If she calls you, hang up the phone - and block her number. Block her text messages. Put her email address in a junk filter. Those are all boundaries.

And you'll have to set boundaries with your DH, too. "If you enable your mother and let her into the house when I've said she can't come in, I will take the kids to the park until she's gone." Or, "If you don't hang up on your mother when she calls to abuse you, I will not support you through the aftermath." It may sound harsh, but he has to deal with his business. His mother is his business, not yours.

[Spirit in the sky]

Thanks to everyone who has replied. I am now realising things are more complicated than I thought. My husband is in a codependent relationship with his mother.
I grew up in a codependent relationship with my mother, I had counselling years ago and was diagnosed as an 'Adult Child'. My mother has been emotionally dependent on me from my childhood, my alcoholic father has always been emotionally absent.
When I met my husband he was recovering from cancer, he suffers from social anxiety and depression. So now I think I am in another codependent relationship.

I have never been able to put my feelings or needs first, I have been a self sacrificing people pleaser all my life. First my mother, now my husband constantly trying to fix things to get approval, motivated by fear of rejection. My husband keeps looking to me for advice on how to deal with his mother and I don't know the answers.

My life is enmeshed in everyone else's, before I make a decision I question myself how it will effect everyone else. My mother constantly seeks advice on dealing with my father, my husband now is hoping I can fix his nightmare relationship with his mother. My mother in law wants me to make my husband see sense, everyone wants something from me.

I can't tell anyone how I really feel, if I tell my mother she has a melt down, blaming herself. She goes into a fit of depression calling herself a bad mother. If I tell my husband how upset I am with his mother, he'll lose it with her and they'll have a screaming match. Which will only make things worse.

The one good thing I have done it telling my mother in law to stop involving me in her fall outs with my husband. I have never had the courage to stand up to her before. My life sees to evolve around fear, fear of upsetting people, fear of rejection, fear of not being liked. I get my self worth from other people's approval.

[Summer Sun]

Spiritinthesky, you have tremendous insight into where your are, as well, why.  While a painful realization, it can be the impetus for change, which you've already begun - you set a boundary with your MIL!  This is huge.  And, it is the appropriate response.  EAch should work on their own stuff.

As a recovering codependent, I understand, i get exactly how you are feeling.  What kinds of things can you do to deepen your understanding then of your part in the dance of dysfunction , because sweetie, you can't change others (the 3 C's).  For example, can you pick up a copy of Melody Beatie's book, Codependent No More?  Join a CODA group?  In addition to accessing the toolbox here, knowing what to do, what not to do and understanding PD traits is helpful.

I should mention that as we change and grow, the PD's in our lives resist this and try to keep us in our Codependent roles.  They may criticize, blameshift, twist, recreate history etc.  My T describes these types of situations like a mobile above a crib.  Pull on just one string and all the other strings are bouncing around, FOO just wants stability in each of our roles and try to get us to change back.  So, it is not easy, the growth, making healthy changes for us and dealing with potential criticism and rejection.  It takes strength, courage and having support from others, ie a T, a DH, BF, groups, resources etc. 

I read a book recently that was helpful to me.  In essence, it suggested redirecting others problems back to them in an empathetic way, as opposed to trying to "fix" it for them ( a typical codependent trait).  For example, my M's driving me crazy, could be responded to with "I understand and can see the impact on you.  It's hard for me to watch you suffer.  What are you going to do about it?  What kind of potential responses or solutions do you see?"  And then be supportive, don't challenge responses, rather, "that may work, I hope so."  Or, "I think the third solution may work best"

Wishing you freedom from fear and the assurance that you are loveable, just as you are!

Summer Sun

[Spirit in the sky]

Thank you so much Summer Sun.
I had a breakthrough moment this morning. I realised I hadn't actually set boundaries with my MIL, I assumed she would know that her behaviour was unreasonable and rectify her own behaviour. Now I have set my first boundary, it will hopefully get easier. I'm also learning how to say no, when I want to and not just say yes because I feel I should.

I think my husband and decided on No Contact because we thought it would be easier than setting boundaries. We were running away from the problem and not facing it head. I also felt I had stored years of resentment up against my MIL, instead of dealing with things at the time I let them fester and cloud my judgement.

My natural instinct would have been to hide behind the No Contact decision. But this morning I decided to face my fears and I actually phoned my MIL, I don't think she was listening when I spoke to her previously, as she was too busy screaming abuse.

I explained why she needed to stop using me to referee her arguments with her son, and asked if she wanted to speak to him. She agreed and he was able to finally get her to listen to him, I think the 3 weeks of no contact had some effect. He was able to clearly articulate his feelings and set his boundaries. I think she was stunned into silence.

We aren't fooled into a false sense of security, but low contact is more manageable. I think she has seen a different side to me, I'm not the doormat she thought I was. I know she will always be difficult but I feel better equipped to deal with her now. I'm not afraid of her anymore, and I don't need her approval.

This forum has been a life saver and helped me think clearly. Thank you everyone who commented on my posts.

[Starboard Song]

 

Please be ever so proud of yourself for this strength and self-awareness.

It may be bumpy. Some of us can never find an adequate set of administrable boundaries, so it is back to NC for some of us. Others recover quite good relationships.

That outcome is in the hands of your MIL, for good or ill. She can decide whether she will allow you to maintain a life of peace and dignity, so she can be a part of it, or not.

I wish you so much success!

[all4peace]

Spirit in the sky, welcome! Your story resonates with mine. When we grow up with dysfunctional relational models, we have no other way to be, and many of us develop codependent traits. You are taking the first steps out of that unhealthy dynamic. It is uncomfortable, painful and confusing. Truly, you are making good choices. Your DH's relationship with his mother is between him and her. Although of course it impacts you, you are in no way responsible to repair another person's relationship or be a go-between.

I believe it can be really helpful to come up with some neutral stock phrases when learning how to take other people's burdens off our shoulders and return them to those people. Things like:
"I'm sorry that I cannot help you with that."
"That is something you will need to talk to XYZ person about."
"That is between you and XYZ person."
For your DH, maybe "I would like to request you seek counseling so that a professional can give you help for your relationship with your mother. I am not qualified."

I used to see it as necessary and loving to help everyone else, to diagnose their problems and prescribe their next steps. Even when it was clearly not my business. Even when they hadn't asked for help (you have ) I have eventually come to see that behavior as enabling and innocently crippling others from finding their own healing paths, their own growth journeys. It can come from a good place, or a habitual place, but we can change. And you're beginning to!

Welcome and thank you for sharing part of your story.

[Spirit in the sky]

Thank you All4peace

My first response was always to jump in and be the saviour. Actually these past 3 weeks have been a blessing. I have been off work with stress and my husband and I went walking everyday. We talked about what was happening, how we felt and ideas for a solution. He isn't usually good at talking about his feelings but it seemed so natural and we were even able to find humour in the madness of it all.

One thing I did keep telling him was, it was how important it is for him to find his own way of dealing with the problem. I voiced my opinion but told him in the end he had to find his own truth, I wasn't going to put words in his mouth. I think from a young age he was programmed to look to others to solve his problems, his mother would jump at the opportunity and then revel in the gratitude and adoration when she saved the day.

In the past I have stepped in when I knew he was making a mistake, and that's the problem he hasn't been allowed to learn from his mistakes. This is a behaviour I learnt with my mother, I was always protecting her because it was too painful to watch her fall apart every time something went wrong. My husband is capable of standing up for his he just needs more practice and encouragement.

This has been a learning curve but brought us closer together.

[artfox]

Welcome, Spirit in the sky!

I can so relate to so many of the things that you've written. Your post about codependency reminded me of my DH and me. I suspect his father has some PD going on as well, so there was lots of people-pleasing behavior drilled into both of us. We're both getting better about being less enmeshed, but it takes time.

I have a friend who grew up in a family much like mine, and he also grew up to be very codependent. When we get into the whole, "I don't know, what do you want to do?" "I don't know, whatever you want to do." loop, he calls it a codependent throwdown. It always makes me laugh, and my DH and I use that term to stop it when we start getting all tangled up.

[Spirit in the sky]

These issues with my MIL has triggered so many buried feelings from my childhood, so I am trying to do some inner child work to help me cope. My mother was codependent with my grandmother, who was orphaned at 3 and was brought up in an industrial school in Ireland in the early 1900's. My grandmother never spoke of her childhood, by contrast my mother never stops talking about how badly treated she was as a child but how much she worshipped her mother. I think she was obsessed with getting her approval.

My mother was always emotionally unstable, I remember her going to therapists but she always said they didn't know what they were talking about. Things took a major turn for the worse when my grandmother died, I was 11 and just stating secondary school. My mother had a nervous breakdown and I remember very clearly her telling me if it wasn't for me she would have killed herself.

This moment defined my life, I was already a Highly Sensitive emotional child but I decided I had to save my mother. I would never let anyone see me cry, I tried to become the perfect child to keep my mother happy because I couldn't cope with her sobbing , screaming or silent treatment if I did something to make her angry. She would sulk with me for hours and I would beg her to talk to me, promising to be good if she didn't reject me.

I was an only child and I know this sounds really freaky, but my mother invented imaginary brothers and sister for me. So instead of encouraging me to make friends she would make up situations with these imaginary siblings to teach me how to interact with people. Obviously they were just different versions of her personality, so she unknowingly was programming my feelings and emotions. This happened for most of my childhood.

I was so completely enmeshed in her life, to the point I married someone I didn't love because she thought he was wonderful. I pretended I had the perfect marriage, but I was miserable suffering from anxiety and depression. I had no relationship with my alcohol father who was self employed and lived for his work. My parents would argue in front of me, my father who was a weak man would be dismissed and my mother would cry and criticise him, telling me he was unless he was and how unhappy he made her. She threatened to leave him but never did.

After a number of secret affairs with narcissist men, I realised I was looking for a knight in shining amour to save me. All these men did was use and abuse me and make me feel worthless. After 7 years I found the courage to leave my husband, of course my mother defended him, and after 17 years still does.

I was an emotional wreck when I met my  second husband, no self worth and I quickly fell into another codependent relationship. I was 30 years old and my mother disapproved, she constantly criticised me and told me I had ruined my reputation. I think she would have disowned me but that would have set me free so it was easier for her to make me feel guilty and ashamed.

My husband had a lot of issues of his own and I didn't have the courage to end another relationship, so I manipulated the situation so he would leave me. We didn't see each other for a year. In this time I seen a therapist and was rebuilding my life, I was able to set some boundaries and our relationship has blossomed over the years, I still slip into people pleasing mode with him sometimes, I know much of my happiness depends on him.

My mother is 86 and my father 75 they are still together and still argue, fight, sulk, make up. It's been a cycle for the past 48 years, both miserable both refusing to do anything to fix it. I do spend a lot of time with them as I care for both of them, my father still drinks, my mother has cut herself off from society and rarely leaves the house.

So here I am 47 years old, I am only starting now to know who I am, I've always been someone's daughter, wife, friend, daughter in law. I have so much programming and conditioning in my head I can barely make a decision without checking if it's ok with someone else. This has effected every aspect of my life and relationships, I have recently been off work with stress because my boss also shows personality disorder tendencies, and I feel myself going into survival mode.

It feels like everything I was ever taught to believe is wrong - be a good girl, don't answer back, don't get upset, put other people's feelings first, don't be selfish, make me proud, don't embarrass me, MY daughter can't do that, what will people think, don't be like your father, if it wasn't for you I would have no life.

I actually was about to apologise for writing this post, then I realised I don't need anyone's person to say how I feel.

[all4peace]

Spirit, this is really uncomfortable and hard work. It sounds like you have already had so much growth after such an unhealthy childhood. In the type of family you describe, nobody has comfort us or taught us how to comfort ourselves, and the process of coming Out of the FOG can be incredibly uncomfortable. It's hard to sit with these feelings that can feel unbearable at times. Keep sharing as you find it helpful. We're glad to support you!

[RavenLady]

Hi Spirit in the sky. Just wanted to say how awful it was that your M made up siblings for you instead of encouraging you to find friends. It sounds like maybe there was a lot of isolation in your family? Maybe even still? I was an "only" too and I know I've struggled with the feeling that because I was so alone in the crazy, no one can understand (which isn't true) or maybe I've made it all up (also not true but what gaslighters do).

Regarding boundaries, it helps me to remember there is a world full of people out there who would never consider not setting and enforcing their own boundaries to their own satisfaction, thank you very much. Millions and billions of other human beings who don't apologize for doing what they need to do to take care of themselves. If they can access that kind of freedom, then surely we can, too? We're not so different, at the end of the day.

[Spirit in the sky]

Ravenlady,

I think my mother believed she was preparing me for the outside world. She herself had a very sheltered childhood and didn't marry my father until she was 39, having me at 40. I was able to make friends at school, and although I always felt different and on the outside I survived.

I was 12 when my parents decided to move house, we had lived in the city up to this point and I was able to walk to school with my friends. But we moved to a farmhouse in the country, our only neighbour was a retired lady. There were no other child for miles, and my mother had to drive me to school or Imwoildmhave to get 2 buses.

This reinforced my isolation, while my friends would be going to each other's houses after school, I would come home alone. I was also bullied at school, because we moved away the other children thought I was posh and stuck up. This wasn't helped when my mother sent me to elecution lessons to speak like a lady. She had an obsession about me being lady-like and I did try and rebel, but angry rages soon made me get back in line.

Because I was so lonely I started living in fantasy land in my head, probably inspired by my made up siblings. I would write stories about the life I would have when I grew up and escaped, of course I was always rescued by a man. I craved my father's attention, I was always looking for a father figure.

In later life I found an older man I thought could save me, he was a lecturer for creative writing and I took his class. Typically he was a narcissist who was married and wanted someone to amuse himself with. I used to tell him all about my mother and my childhood, he would listen but then expect some sexual in return.

As you can imagine my self-worth was at an all time low.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Spiritinthesky,

So many good insights here already - I just wanted to chime in that your MIL's behavior is about her, and what she wants. I had to repeat this to myself over and over when I realized I felt responsible for not creating better boundaries with my MIL, and regretting not creating boundaries with them earlier. These are adults - we don't go around assuming (or at least I did not used to assume this) that we need to manage our time with adults so carefully and focus on our boundaries with them.

I started reading about codependency and came across information on prodependency recently. It's a way of looking a codependent behaviours without blaming the codependent for being kind and empathetic. If you google it, the recent articles about it by Weiss etc. should come up. I think it is terribly important for those of us who have been codependent, to see ourselves as loving and love able, so that we can release ourselves from the cycle of self neglect.

The more I practice taking care of my self, the less I have to focus on creating boundaries. Because the boundary is the thing others will experience while I am busy caring for my self. The hardest thing about that has been to truly accept the reality of how poorly people react to my new boundaries, which are all rooted in self care. It's hard on the heart.

My MIL is controlling, and my attempts at self care annoyed her. If she took care of her needs, would she really be annoyed by the self-care activities other women do? I don't think so. I found such relief when I realized she was "just" taking out her anger on me, and nothing more, and nothing less....