Did your PD parents make you bond with them after abuse?

[Dinah-sore]

I feel really "off" today. Why do I always feel so confused? And today it feels like pain a bit too.

I was remembering how when I was growing up, and I did something to upset my BPDm, she would sit me down on the couch and interrogate me, thought police me, manipulate me, rage at me, shame me, accuse me of things she thought I was thinking or intending. But this would last ALL DAY. She never got tired. Sometimes I wouldn't be allowed to eat until she was done and I would just stare out the window and watch the sun go down, and tune her words out.

This happened my whole life. It would last sometimes 10 hours. I was stuck on the couch listening to her go on and on and on and on. And I had  to nod my head every so often or it would get worse. She wouldn't just punish me. She had to brainwash me too.

It was never over until I admitted in my own words how I earnestly believe every word she spoke. I had to explain in detail why she is right and I am wrong. But I would be exhausted, and often I would be starving, and confused. I remember pretending to agree with her, and making sure my facial expressions and tone of voice were pleasing and convincing. Sometimes this practice of hers would work, and I would believe what she was saying, over what I felt in my heart, replacing my thoughts and feelings with hers.

What is so weird though is this---After her rages, abuses, big fights, blow ups, interrogations, huge punishments, and torment, she would always say that know one will love me as much as she does, and that she does this to me BECAUSE she loves me. And she would try to draw me in to some emotional catharsis with her. Some mind and heart melding.

I have watched her do this to my kids too. I have seen her try to manipulate them to her way of thinking, on a much less traumatic scale, but when they get upset with her, she will say in the most convincing voice, "I will lay down my life for you. You can always trust me and come to me and tell me everything." And I have seen my kids respond with belief and faith in her goodness. Forgetting that before she vowed her devotions she was rolling her eyes at them in disgust and calling them the stupidest children on the planet.

Does anyone else's parents use tormenting moments, and the calm after the literal rage storm, to try to bond with you?

I used to be sooooo drawn in. I think that is what messed me up the most, because I wasn't left with the aftermath of frustration or anger at my mom, I was worn down, broken down, converted to her thinking, then when tired, hungry, and brain dead, I was put in a position to bond with her.

It was like I wasn't allowed to walk away with my own sense of self. I walked away from days of torment, feeling connected more closely to her.

It makes me sick. Like she totally had her way with me.

I think what is triggering this memory is because I can feel her the last few days trying to draw me into bonding with her. She is trying to meld with me. But it is making me sick. I feel a sense of danger. I feel fear. I feel violated (even though I am not being currently violated).

I feel depressed.

[symbasmommy]

I am so sorry this is happening... My mother would do this at times.. Not each time and now later in her life as she ages not anymore....its too late for her.. She just abuses and abandons now and leaves me not knowing what I have done... But I live in another state now so the abuse is different.... I am sorry do know that they love to torment so it seems a pattern with her... And somehow after the abuse she is left with a feeling of emptiness she wants you to fill so the cycle can begin again... I am sorry...

[Fightsong]

Reminds me of  "your actions are speaking so loudly they are drowning out your words".

It's the dissonance between the words are the feelings. Yes mine would say I could always talk to them / they would always be there / loved me to the core  - whilst I knew in my heart and body this was not the case- I fixed up my own problems  and messes, and shoved away all feelings, because I knew they weren't safe or capable. 

And other people let her down badly ,  and I was made to promise I never would. I'd always be there when she got old. To help. "Promise you"ll never abandon me  Fightsong?". Spins the head.

I'm sorry your mom did all that.  Please take care of your self today.remember you can comfort and trust yourself now.

[MyLifeToo]

Oh Dinah, what you are describing is nothing less than torture - it would be for an adult, let alone a child. Stockholm syndrome springs to mind, and she knew just how to get you back in the fold after the abuse. My M would "sit me down for a talk" (ie I had to sit and listen, then fawn for approval), and still does, but only for maybe a couple of hours max. She always couches it as for my own good because she doesn't want me to feel guilty for my behaviour after she's gone (because she loves me so much). Now I know how to get up and walk away, but as little as 18 months ago I would never have dared to. I still don't usually notice the run-up to a episode until it's too late, and I've been hoovered in, so maybe you can take a little comfort in seeing it coming, as depressing as that is.

I hope you can step back and create a mental distance until you feel strong enough to resist her "charms"! Wishing you peace and strength.

[StayWithMe]

she would always say that know one will love me as much as she does,

My mother would say "No one will ever do as much for you as we will (my parents.)"  This remark comes after my saying how nice / generous someone was to me.  Not that I would make a comparative statement.

The irony here is that once someone chooses to be a parent, they will always be doing more for that child than any other adult will.  Sorry, mom, but don't become a parent if you don't want to shelter, feed, clothe, educate and socialize for an adult life a child.  And guess what?  It's a 24 /7/ 365 kind of job.

What I gather from my mother is that she is saying she has all this money that she spends on me when no one else will.  I've had to unlearn that money will buy you healthy relationships.

[SunnyMeadow]

After reading about your 10 hour tortuous lectures Dinah, I'm thinking you have every right to be done with your mom. She isn't worth your time or energy. Believe me I know this is "easier said than done".

This is definitely the right place for us to read, learn and come to the realization that we can be done with them and don't need to keep taking the toxic abuse.

Hugs and understanding.....

[xredshoesx]

one of my mother's husbands would line up the kids (me and his children) and scream at us until he was done.  you just had to stand there and take it.  there was never a 'make up' with him.

my biological mother, on the other hand, spent a good 9 months trying to make up with me after she got me back from the state.  that ended when the back child support checks stopped from my biological father.  the extended period was surreal.  i had a mom who would drive me to the bar and make cookies with me when i got suspended....buddy mom all the way basically. 

[sandpiper]

Yes, uBPDad would lose it and scream and rant and hit and then at the end of it he would start crying and want to hug me and tell me how much he loved me and that nobody would ever love me more. He was a war veteran so he had PTSD from that, was hooked on alcohol & prescription pharmaceuticals & likely had C-PTSD from shocking abuse from his own father who had also been a war veteran, and who gave my grandmother hell for her race.
I've seen friends - people that I love and value - shout in horrible rages at their own children & deliver the most god-awful diatribes and then tell their daughters how much they love them. I can't see other signs that my friends are PD, they just seem to have inherited this pattern from their own families of origin and they consider it normal parenting. I've been shocked and triggered by it many times and have stepped right back from a lot of those relationships. I've come to view a lot of that as damage that's passed down through intergenerational trauma and it's been 'normalised' within their own family and by society that often condones a mother screaming abuse at her own children. It makes it that much easier for a PD mother to get away with it if more functional mothers think it's normal.
Just my perspective on it, but I don't think that behaviour is limited to PD parents or even to mentally ill parents or substance addicted parents. I think it's a pattern of chronic dysfunction that's been passed down over generations and for reasons I can't understand, society accepts it.
I'm sorry that this happened to you.
I remember how confusing it was for me.
It was worse when one of my sisters started repeating the pattern with her own children, and awful when I'd see my own friends do it, and think that it's normal.
It's not.
It's an awful, horrible, destructive behaviour and I wish that when people are preparing for parenthood, they would enroll in parenting classes, just out of a wish to do better than was done to us.

[UsedUp]

My dad, whatever he is, would get in my face, ask me over and over, demanding an answer, of WHY I did whatever it was. He wouldn't quit until I  told him something.  Like 'I don't know '.  He would go on and on... 'you weren't raised like this... what were you thinking?... you're so stupid.... you don't have a mind of your own' ... on and on.

And I really didn't do anything.  I was a young teenager.  A virgin, didn't do drugs, didn't drink. Didn't smoke. Nothing.  But apparently,  having a mind of my own, which he accused me of not having because it didn't agree with his, and because I was the SG, was enough to set him off on whatever infraction I was supposedly guilty of.

This wasn't an all day thing, but maybe an hour or so. It was him. Berating me, and trying to wear me down. 'Mom' never really talked to me. Acted like she couldn't stand being in the same room with me. I wasn't her 'firstborn that she nursed, and I wasn't a Male, like my GC sib.

The more that happened, the more I withdrew.  Maybe it's true about the SG being more sensitive,  intuitive, and truth telling. They must be scared of that.

Whatever it is, after going NC, I think they are plain scared.  How dare we do that. How dare we put them in the position of having to explain why one of their children aren't in contact with them!!! Oh the horror.

So to fix it, here comes the smear campaign.  It CAN'T  be anything THEY did, so it has to be us. She's on drugs... she's mentally ill,  her husband won't let her see us, have you seen or heard from her.. (asked to almost everyone I've known since first grade, even though GCsib has my email address, and 'mom' has my phone number that he could get if he wanted to.  But no effort at all to contact me directly,  even though he could have. But contacting every one else, making me look bad.

Spying on me on FB and running to 'mom and dad' to tell them any little tidbit he found. Sickening.

But GCsib, treated me the same way as 'mom and dad' did, because he was trained to.

I mean,one Saturday night, he came in drunk.  The next morning we were getting ready for... get this... 'church'... and he woke up throwing up. The whole house smelled like puke and warm beer. Mom excused the whole thing. Said he was just tired, and let him sleep. And off we 3 go to 'church'.

If that were me, I'd been thrown out by the scruff of my neck. Or put into some state run 'home' that they didn't have to pay for.  Since 'dad' didn't work, you know.

Sorry for the rant and getting off topic. It's tough.

What your mother did back then was not right, and your father letting her do that also wasn't right.

Think about NC. You can always try it and see how you feel.

[daughter]

Yes, lots of frightful yelling, sudden slaps across the face, and "wait until your dad gets home" threats, almost entirely for trumped-up fake offenses, often "that look on your (my) face" even as I'd already learned as a young child to poker-face myself at all times.  Plus that "nobody does more for you" cajoling in face of obvious evidence of NBM's overt malice and blatant disfavor-mode towards me, her older daughter.  (And, enNF both acknowledged this pd-disordered family dynamic, empowered it, enforced my obedient sufferance, told me "your mom doesn't like me" and "you're strong enough to endure it!".)

Here's the thing.  You realize it was inappropriate and abusive for you to endure this as a child, then as an adult.  Now you see your mother applying the same pd-disordered tactics on your children, repeating the abuse-cycle.  Please protect your children, even if your mother gets mightily offended, even if your father berates you for "being mean to mom", and protect your children.  It's abuse, plain and simple.  It's self-entitled bad behavior that must be contained and stopped by you, you alone. 

[daughterofbpd]

Hi Dinah,

I had been wondering how you were doing.  I'm sorry you are feeling depressed. You have been through a lot recently.

My M did the same thing in regards to the raging for hours and it would not stop until she had broken me down and I would say I agreed with her.

A side note: One of the things I used to do with my body language was shrink down and stare at the floor and not make eye contact. I think my body language may have served as further evidence to her that I was guilty so now I work to act more confident, stand tall, and look her in the eyes (although she hasn't raged at me since I came Out of the FOG and told her I wouldn't stick around if she raised her voice around me again).

My M would also say that she put me through that hell because she loved me. A part of me believed that she was trying to do what was best for me, even if I didn't agree with it (like a parent not allowing you to do something dangerous). A part of me did believe that I was bad and since I didn't know how to be better this would lead me to self destructive behaviors (to punish myself). Afterwards, my M would act like the whole thing never happened. I don't think she was very good at bonding with me afterward though. Her good side was never strong enough to balance out the bad. I remember feeling distrustful and resentful, even if I had to pretend that I wasn't. I think that's how my love for her wore away.
[Isn't that how trauma bonding works though? They upset you and break you down and then try to be the hero and save you? Yes, my M tries so hard to do this. She literally wants to hurt me so she can be there for me when I'm hurt.]

I think the sense of danger and violation you feel is healthy & normal, considering the situation. If our mothers have the opportunity to suck us back in again then the cycle continues and they can continue to hurt us. It is literally dangerous (for our mental health) to trust them.

I think the best thing you can do is be kind to yourself right now and give yourself some time to heal. Maybe you should tell your M you need some space and block her calls & texts for awhile. It doesn't have to be permanent. In the past, we weren't given the time or space to heal (we weren't even aloud to be upset). We were expected to snap back into being happy. Life doesn't work like that. You aren't a puppet. You are your own person with feelings.

Take care.

[daughterofbpd]

My dad, whatever he is, would get in my face, ask me over and over, demanding an answer, of WHY I did whatever it was. He wouldn't quit until I  told him something.  Like 'I don't know '.  He would go on and on... 'you weren't raised like this... what were you thinking?... you're so stupid.... you don't have a mind of your own' ... on and on.

And I really didn't do anything.  I was a young teenager.  A virgin, didn't do drugs, didn't drink. Didn't smoke. Nothing.  But apparently,  having a mind of my own, which he accused me of not having because it didn't agree with his, and because I was the SG, was enough to set him off on whatever infraction I was supposedly guilty of.

Yes! My M was always demanding an answer. I remember having no idea what I was supposed to say because I didn't even know what I'd done. Once I said "I don't know you want me to say." That did not go over well at all.

[all4peace]

Dinah-sore, this is so messed up that it just hurts my heart. To think of a child and teen enduring this is just horrific. No wonder you and many of us here get into adulthood and really struggle to figure out which way is up, what's normal and what on earth is going on when our inner and outer worlds do not match.

The only memory I have of being comforted as a child was the one time my enF took me on his lap after a beating and asked me how school had been that day. I was probably only around 5-8 yrs old, and it's a painful and uncomfortable mixture of joy and pain.

My uNBPDm didn't make me bond with her, but she did require me to cross the distance between me and her every single time she was abusive. She didn't apologize. She didn't repair. She went silent for days to weeks at a time until I was willing to grovel and beg and apologize and plead for relationship again.

It is so messed up. It makes me so sad for our little selves with nobody to protect us and no way to know any differently. And yet look at us, coming Out of the FOG, figuring it out so many years later, doing so much better by our own children. I'm so very sorry for the amount of trauma you have endured in your lifetime.

[all4peace]

I wanted to add: Please consider never again allowing your children to spend 1 more second with someone who calls them the stupidest children in the world. Imo, that is absolutely not ok, ever.

[Andeza]

Oh Dinah-sore... In short, yes. This brought back a lot of memories for me. Specifically, she was convinced I had not learned my lesson until I broke down in tears (pure rage but she never realized that) and admitted what I had done wrong. More often than not, because I too was a good kid that never got in real trouble, it was over my "bad attitude" or "being disrespectful." The wasted hours of my life I'll never get back. But more troublesome is the anger I still carry. She wouldn't stop the lecture until I was crying, then I got my physical punishment, finally. And then... I was forced to hug her so she would feel better while she justified her actions in my ear most often by twisting the religion I was raised in and insisting she only punished me because she loved me. Sound familiar? To this day, I hate the feeling of a person's breath on my ear and it makes me unreasonably angry. Like seriously hulk smash, flipped the switch, T-minus 3-2-1 kinda angry. Houston we have a problem...

I had to journal this and wait a bit before I could bring myself to post. That's how alive my rage still is, like the wound in my soul is still fresh and bleeding. In hindsight, I can look back, mostly objective and say "What did I do wrong?" Nothing. "Did I deserve my punishment?" No. "Was she justified in treating me that way?" Never. "Will I ever let her treat me that way again? Or allow her to treat my child that way?" Simple answer, no, and she'd better not try. I walk a fine line right now between being willing to maintain VVVVLC and going full NC. It would be an easy line to cross under the right conditions and I would do it with no regrets.

This may be the single, largest problem I have with my UPDM. The waifing I can roll my eyes over, even the rants and raves about how life is unfair can't hold a candle to these memories. Sadly these are the memories I cannot let go, because I need them to survive and move forward. They give me the strength to fight back against the gaslighting, to hold the truth in my mind. To fight the rug-sweeping that she so desperately wants. To fight the urge to fix her problems like I was brainwashed to do. I'm not saying it's healthy, because I know it's not and one day carrying around that much anger will probably bite me in the backside and hard, but for now I need it.

Protect your heart. Protect your children. You never deserved to be treated the way you were. Remember that.

[Yael924]

It took me a few days to answer this as well. Brought up some terribleness...but made me realize a few things too. So thank you (I think  )

Short answer: Oh my god yes.

Long answer (TW abuse), I called it, boxing rounds, as it went in cycles. lecture, hitting, go to your room and sit and think about what you have done. I also sometimes called it to an alien autopsy -- she wanted to verbally  turn me inside out and look at me -- how could you not have see that spec of dust on the floor? And I had to explain my failures. How could you not know that you were supposed to clean the gap underneath the stove  and above the floor (silly me - I thought they sat flush on to floor, I think I was like 10.) And I had to explain my stupidity repeatedly. Then Dad would get home and she'd tell him how terrible I was and delay his dinner until he gave me a whipping. He told me later he knew I hadn't really done anything but "what did you expect me to do?"

What indeed 

So Dinah -- maybe you are saying to yourself -- what could be good about thinking about that ?? But what I realized is that I told myself I was there with a sibling. But thinking about it now I realized that it was not so very often that there were two of us the whole time.  Only to round 3 or so. Interesting, given the way the SG/GC stuff shook out.  I took the brunt of the violence -- so now I can see why the other sibs keep saying its not so bad. Well sure, for you guys.

This process can be a big bummer. But it reminds me why these ppl are not in my life.  Its not like anyone ever came to the rescue.....

[Yael924]

And now I realized I forgot  to describe the bonding part.

During the discussion phase it would be  explained that mom has to do this, so see. She had to help me, you see. I made all these terrible mistakes, and she loved me enough to try to help, even though she didn't understand how I could keep not seeing invisible lint or not knowing what chores needed to been done when I was never told to do them in the first place. I had to apologize and tell her I loved her. Hugs and kisses. And then it would be back to my room to think about what you have done.

[StayWithMe]

And now I realized I forgot  to describe the bonding part.

During the discussion phase it would be  explained that mom has to do this, so see. She had to help me, you see. I made all these terrible mistakes, and she loved me enough to try to help, even though she didn't understand how I could keep not seeing invisible lint or not knowing what chores needed to been done when I was never told to do them in the first place. I had to apologize and tell her I loved her. Hugs and kisses. And then it would be back to my room to think about what you have done.

Did this affect the way you interacted with people your age?

[eternallystuck]

Yes. It's like a form of gaslighting /projection/hoovering all in one.

My npd had terrible erratic anger outbursts as a child, would blame me as the scapegoat for anything & physically attack me. When I became emotionally overwhelmed or tried to confront it she would threaten me with homelessness & then start the brainwashing....where essentially you apologised for having an appropriate reaction to a dysfunctional adult with 0 self awareness. They do this because you won't blow the whistle whilst scared of them; they control you by your fears, self doubt& of course your inevitable lack of independence as a child . If that didn't work, she would throw me out to npd Gran who she hates& would let me slowly suffer. Then she would act like the hero of the situation that if I promised to become subhuman, suppress all emotion & not inflict N injuries on dearest mommy she would rescue me from evil Gran who she is soooo much better than . This happened over & over & as child I often fell into this trap.


Now as a young adult , having had time away, I realise her sending me to my grans was punishment for holding to her account, it was a way to control me into submission . Oddly enough she often got jealous when grandma defended me or I felt closer to her (despite her also being dysfunctional). It was very confusing. It was almost like I was a ping pong ball in between their rivalry.

So yes I totally understand this cycle. This is how the pd works tho. They keep you off balance. Abuse you then display a distorted effort to 'bond' or resenoate with you which is why you keep draining yourself for that flicker of hope at a normal m.

We have to realise someone doesn't have to be a murderer or totally devoid of empathy /awareness to be toxic. If they do more damage than good, we have to create distance for our own sake. There is a reason these ppl draw us in again & again, they've realised they can control us .

[sandpiper]

Eternally stuck - I really needed to hear that last line of yours.
I'm so sorry that all of us have gone through this.
I really needed that reminder, though, that while our parents may be PD, we have to think about the behaviour and how it affects us, and ultimately it's about learning to value ourselves enough that we will protect ourselves from recurring abuse.