Helping kids deal with golden child/scapegoat dynamic

[Penny Lane]

Lately it's been becoming more and more clear that my DH's ex wife clearly prefers my DSS11 vs DSD8. And I'm looking for ways to help each of them navigate everything.

This shows up in a lot of different ways. Some of it is more concrete like BM will much more readily sign DSS up for activities or show up to his games and stuff on DH's time. But she won't do the same for DSD and even will forget (or "forget") about her games on her time too. She also agrees to medical stuff for DSS but it's a fight when it's DSD. Except counseling, she fought that hard for DSS. But otherwise in fact she seems to make up illnesses or medical conditions for DSS but never DSD. The less concrete things include stuff we can't prove but seem obvious. Like, DSD gets ignored at her mom's house while DSS gets all the attention, good and bad. DSS seems to get help with homework while DSD doesn't. BM sets up playdates for DSS and makes friends with the other kids' parents, but never DSD.

At our house it seems that what this means is that DSD tends to act out more when she's upset, like express her anger. She definitely is more snuggly and needs a lot of love and attention when they come back from their mom. She seems to latch onto women (including me, but she's done it with teachers, coaches, etc, especially women who look kind of like her mom). Overall she seems to have an easier time on transitions. She is more consistently exhausted when she gets back, but I chalk that up to being younger and less able to bounce back from less sleep.

DSS, on the other hand, seems to buy into what his mom says more. His latest line is "dad never buys me stuff." (DH buys everything for the kids, probably like most of you.) He seems less mad but more whiny, to the point where he's sobbing about DH not buying him some trinket. In the past he has told DH "Whining works with mom!" We've had to work with him a lot about saying no to friends. And he can be kind of sneaky and manipulative, not to the extent BM is, but I definitely think he's picking up more bad communication from her. And he's a real people-pleaser at times, to the point where I worry about him not being able to say no to friends or other people. I would say overall he and DH have a really good relationship. But sometimes he'll come back from his mom's house with an idea she put into his head and he arrives really mad at DH and it takes a lot of emotional work to resolve.

He is also definitely on his way to being a teenager, so we're dealing with some new stuff around him trying to be independent. It's almost like he's a toddler again, absorbing everything around him, but instead of basic phrases it's sophisticated interpersonal concepts. So we're really trying to teach him (explicitly and through modeling) about healthy relationships and communication. So that's a separate issue but it's kind of wrapped up in it - he's looking to his parents to figure out who he wants to grow into while at the same time needing his independence. We've also lately been encouraging him to share his real feelings about stuff which has been leading to him saying he's mad at us more often! I try to see at least some of that as a victory.

I kind of think that long term, it's going to be easier for DSD. It seems like she's getting less pressure to buy into BM's false worldview and swallow her own thoughts and feelings. Obviously we want her to grow up feeling loved and safe and I think she's been doing pretty well lately but I want to make we're doing everything we can. For DSS, I think he's going to have a much more complicated path to learn how to have healthy relationships (with his mom and everyone else).

Do you guys have any suggestions for how to help the kids navigate the differing pressures and problems they're seeing with their mom? Especially things we can do over here to help them become more resilient, healthier people (ie not stuff that would require DH to get BM's buy-in).

[athene1399]

I don't know if this helps. I was kind of a scapegoat growing up (though my parents are still together so that changes the dynamic a bit). The biggest thing for me was my emotions and feelings were never validated. Also, do what you say you are going to do no matter how small the promise is. I grew up trusting no one because my mom would want me to come to her about stuff, but when I showed my depression or anxiety symptoms I got yelled at. So it was like this conflicting reality. She would say one thing, yet do the complete opposite when it came down to it.

Another thing you can try is teaching the kids how to express what they want to say so they learn to communicate their feelings instead of burying their wants and letting others get what they want all the time. This helps them set up good boundaries for relationships (any relationship). So maybe making sure both DSS and DSD get input on what you do at your house (like what games to play on game night or whatever). Teach them how to compromise and value each others' opinions. My sister still thinks that what I want doesn't matter. I should drop whatever I am doing and do what she wants (and we're in our 30s). But that's how we were raised. What I wanted never mattered. So teach them to listen to each other and value each others opinions even if they don't agree. It sounds like maybe DSD's opinion doesn't matter at mom's. Make sure both their opinions matter at your place.

When DSS comes up with the "dad doesn't buy me anything" ask him open ended questions so he can start thinking about the discrepancies. And when he's mad, maybe something like "I'm sorry you are feeling mad at us. Do you want to talk about it so maybe we can work out something to make you feel better about what you are upset about?" Obviously if it's something ridiculous you can't give in, like if you won't let him go out on school nights, but you can still say sorry you can't do this now, but maybe we can compromise on something similar that we are okay with. As they get older they need to feel valued and listened to. Not to say they get to do whatever they want, but get more pull when making smaller decisions. I hope this makes sense. Sometimes I don't articulate well. 

[Stepping lightly]

Hi PL,

This is one of the most heartbreaking things to deal with in my opinion.  My stepkids used to alternate GC and SG about every six months.  For about the past 2-3 years, DSS has been the full time SG and DSD is the GC.  DSS was constantly told he was a bad kid, BM even forced a mental illness diagnosis for the poor kid to keep him in line (he told her he wanted to live with us full time, and then a month later she convinces a psychiatrist he's mentally ill.  We saw the documentation, the dx was 100% from her input as he tested just fine).  DSD comes over combative and annoyed, DSS comes over giddy and full of hugs. 

We strive really hard to treat the kids equally, and discipline equally.  The same offenses have the same consequence.  It is really easy to let things slide a bit more with the SG because you feel badly for the position they are in.  On the other hand, it is easy to be harder on the GC because they actively try to make things difficult (in our home anyway).    And we consistently manage the way they treat each other.  There are times when DSD is just hammering DSS, and you can tell the words are a repetition from what BM was saying to him.  On the other hand, at times DSS will be really rough on DSD, I believe because he takes the opportunity to lash out at her after relentless bullying  from her at BM's.  None of it is tolerated. 

SG- make them feel loved and validated and worthy, GC- keep their arrogance in check and manage how they treat others.  That's about the best we can do I think.  Both kids are trying to survive.  You see and feel it more with the SG, but it is the same with the GC.    I do think in our situation, the DSS will do better emotionally.  He really seems to understand more than we give him credit it for and he tries to stay out of the BM vs. DH line of fire as much as possible (DSD IS the line of fire a lot of times). He's a bit more open about what he has to do in order to keep BM from blowing up, and we work with him on managing the situations as best we can.  He doesn't just believe what BM says, and on a happy note, he doesn't blindly believe what we say either.  He has told us "I'm making up my own mind".   I don't know how we'll get DSD through this though, she's being taught horrible things, and BM is always right.  But- that being said, DH takes the abuse from her, and he sticks with her through the really tough conversations...calmly, and amazingly, after years of BM trying to turn DSD against DH....she really still loves her Dad.

[Penny Lane]

Thanks to both of you for the feedback! Athene, I always really appreciate it when people share insight from their own childhood. I find it incredibly helpful to help me guess at what is happening at BM's house and what's going on in the kids' heads. SL, this is all really good advice, especially the stuff about being fair to both kids despite whatever we think might be happening at their other house.

The dynamic between the kids seems to be playing out slightly differently than what you guys have observed. DSS doesn't join in on bullying his sister - if anything he tries to protect her and be the peacemaker between members of his family. Like if they're all playing with the neighborhood kids he'll be really protective of her and what she wants to do. In fact we've had to talk to him about how he's not the parent, he doesn't make rules for her and if there's a problem he should come get an adult rather than taking responsibility for her as well as himself. It's not malicious but it is stuff like, enforcing rules or trying to stop her from what he perceives as dangerous behavior. My guess is that BM isn't really taking care of SD so SS feels like he has to step in, and I sometimes wonder if he tries to protect SD from BM. More troubling is that he will occasionally try to make her toe the line on BM's stuff. Like she'll say something that happened at mom's house and he'll rush in going NO THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN (but it obviously did). We've tried to put a hard stop to that, no need for him to enforce BM's gaslighting. Anyway overall it's a really unhealthy dynamic, he shouldn't be taking responsibility for his sister's well-being and often he's not really telling her the right thing to do (he is still a kid after all!) SD adores and looks up to SS and I think it's in a normal way for a younger sibling to view an older sibling. We've actually had to encourage him to set some boundaries with her and told him stuff like it's OK if he wants some alone time even if that makes her upset. That's still really hard for him though he's getting better.

Also, SD is a lot more comfortable expressing her opinions. Maybe she feels like she has to say it louder to be heard. But we definitely try to give both kids a chance to give input on everything from what they wear to where we go on vacation (obviously they don't get the final say on some things but they do get a say).

So I'm not as worried about DSS coming at people with arrogance. But I do worry about more like emotional manipulation type stuff. The little kid version of it is whining but he's definitely getting more sophisticated as he gets older, and I think it's a bad communication habit that he's learning directly from BM. We address it when we see it but who knows how he's relating to his friends at school.

SL, when you say your DSS will do better emotionally, I think that's true for DSD too. She'll see and speak the truth about the situation in ways that really amaze me. Like one time several years ago - she was really little - I remember out of the blue she told me "Mom and dad fight a lot" and DSS said "NO THEY DON'T" and I thought, a few weeks ago your mom just came to our door and screamed at your dad in front of all of us, anyone with eyes or ears in the neighborhood knows that mom and dad fight a lot. DSD was willing to say it and ask me for reassurance or whatever. DSS wanted to cover it up so no one would get in trouble. I worry that DSS is going to grow up feeling like he has to keep the peace between both parents. But to keep the peace with BM is to totally buy into her skewed world view and accept her gaslighting as reality. He could twist himself apart trying to make them both happy, and then he'd blame himself when his parents still don't get along.

When DSS said the thing about money we went through all the stuff DH has bought for him recently. Then we explained that our philosophy is that the kids get an allowance and they get to spend it on any extras they want. DH could stop giving them an allowance and start paying for that stuff instead ... but the kids wouldn't get as much say on what was purchased, and there wouldn't actually be any more money there for little knickknacks. He didn't really like that (I mean we all wish we had unlimited money to spend on whatever we want) but I do think he got it. He definitely was much less whiny after that.

[Stepping lightly]

 DSD13 mother's DSS11 as well, I think there are several reasons for it.  1- She wants to make sure BM's rules are enforced, and since they are often unreasonable and strictly to control activities in our home,  she takes it on herself to try to enforce them because we don't 2- I think she does feel somewhat responsible for DSS.  She told me a story about some kids having a very mature conversation in their neighborhood, and she was trying to get DSS away from the discussion because it was not appropriate for him  3- I think she's scared that BM will find out that her rules were not followed, and they will both get in trouble.

The problem with having 2 kids in this situation is that their sibling can always turn on them to garner favor with BM.  There is always the risk, even if they both get something they want that BM wouldn't allow, that one of them will tell BM.  It could be a simple slip, an intentional attempt for favor, or fear of her finding out some other way and trying to get ahead of it.  We've had honest discussions with DSS about things like watching a movie BM has forbidden while DSD isn't around.  The last time this happened, he was forbidden from seeing the movies because they are DH's favorite all time movies and he's now old enough to watch them together. BM told DSS he was "required to watch them with her BF", even though he really wanted to see them with his Dad. So, really not reasonable.  We don't want him in a situation where he has anxiety about slipping up, so we talk about how he feels about the whole situation and we let him decide.  He has decided both ways at different times.

I think maybe we are a few years ahead of you in the GC/SG process and gas-lighting.  DSD has mostly integrated everything BM has told her at this point, and everything we say is completely wrong and we are "uninformed".  BM is pushing DSD into really extreme political beliefs, which includes racism and prejudice against DH's race (BM's BF is a different race, and she is doing everything to make them believe he is a better man).  It's so horrifying and sick, but DSD just absorbs it all and it's so heartbreaking.  BM makes DSD read articles to push her agenda.  When we ask her to read the counterpoint, she refuses.  Some of it is exacerbated by her age, but it is absolutely escalated by BM intentionally.

We do have to step in on the mothering though.  The other day we were eating breakfast and had this bit size muffins.  DSD checks the serving size, looks at DSS and says "you are only allowed to have 2".  This is a super sensitive issue for us because DSS loses at TON of weight during the school year when he is with BM, and DSD has said to us "DSS doesn't eat at Mom's".  We used to visit him for lunch and bring him food because he had to pack his own lunch and he "ran out of time and didn't have time to pack anything".  And...of course he is forbidden from buying school lunch. So, when he's with us, he can have seconds :-). 

[Penny Lane]

Goodness, all this is so horrifying, but especially the racism stuff. As always I'm so sorry you're dealing with this and impressed with your ability to keep your humor and grace in the middle of it!

Thanks again, you've given me a lot of things to look out for although also more things to stress about. I do agree that some of the differences are that we're not as far into the gaslighting issues but I think another part of it is that DSS has more enabler tendencies than your DSD. The thought isn't at all comforting to me though - I think if anything that makes it easier for him to get enmeshed and lead to more difficulties long term. It might play out a little differently but the underlying issues are the same, it seems. There's not much we can do about them telling on each other to BM, I guess I just have to hope that she doesn't ever get as bad as yours is.

As a sidenote, and this isn't really related to the scapegoat thing, our BM also gets really protective about movie/pop culture stuff. One time right before a long break with us she told the kids they weren't allowed to see the movie from a series that we all really like. I think she sees movies and music as her parenting domain and she gets real weird about DH taking the kids to movies or concerts or listening to music we like with them.

[Stepping lightly]

hi PL,

We are dealing with a super PD (as in she has gotten degrees that have taught her how to get away with all of this horror. She can pretty much do anything, and nobody will hold her accountable).  The main thing is, just keep things level and consistent  at your house.  You can't do anything about what happens at BM's, and it seems like you have the kids enough  of the time to balance things out.  Our situation really shifted when BM got full custody.  Sadly, and selfishly, it's almost easier having them in a static GC/SG role, takes the guess work out of which version of the kids you will get back each time.   

For DSD, we try to think long term on how to help her.  One of my fears is that when it comes time for college, she will just live at home with BM,  she feels BM needs her (she has actually said that's what she wants to do, and will only consider the schools BM has gone to).  When these discussions come up, I really emphasize the importance of learning who SHE is and going to college and spreading her wings.  DH is also really good about having detailed conversations with her, where he gently challenges the things she's been brainwashed into believing.  If nothing else, he does cause her to willingly stop and think about what she is saying, and ask "what do YOU think about that?".    He reinforces how important it is to believe what SHE believes, we don't expect her to believe us vs. her mom, but to use her intelligence to work through both sides and come up with her own opinions. 

For the movies- BM has dictated to the kids that her BF is the rule maker on what they can watch and read because he's "so worldly and brilliant".  Just more control.
She did the same thing with a  series that we wanted to watch as  a family, that the kids were told they could watch if they read all the books (which they did), and DH confirmed with their T that it was appropriate aged material (which we knew it was, but documentation is always nice).  DSS was told that if he watched them at our house, he would NEVER be able to watch them at hers. 

[athene1399]

One of my fears is that when it comes time for college, she will just live at home with BM,  she feels BM needs her

We're dealing with this now, too. I'm really hoping SD dorms so she can live on her own and learn to be independent. It's still all up in the air, but right now she's living with BM full time to help her out.  She's said before if she goes to a school closer to my house she will live with us, but I don't see her getting away from BM unless she dorms. And BM wants SD fully dependent on her.

I also feel she has a bit of the GC dynamic. SD feels like she has to be perfect. I try to tell her as long as she studies and tried her best on a test, that is all that matters. She feels she has to have the highest grade. She puts a lot of pressure on herself. She wasn't like this until BM was back in the picture. I'm afraid she feels if she isn't perfect, BM will leave her again. So I try really hard to help her to be more confident and let her know she is perfect just the way she is, flaws and all. But like the GC, she also has this "better than everyone" attitude. SD and SO got into and argument a bit ago because SD said she is "the most humble person" and SO tried to explain to her that if you really are humble, you don't go around saying that you are (like bragging about being humble is the opposite of the definition of "humble"). Anyway, she got so mad they changed their plans and she asked to be taken back to BM's. But BM is like that. She brags all the time about being this great humanitarian or whatever. Like she tries really hard to show how selfless she is, when in reality she only does nice things to look good or get attention. We're not to sure what to do about the "better than" attitude because SD gets offended it we try to point out the inconsistencies. Like she's created this self-image and can't accept things that don't reinforce it.  IDK...

[Penny Lane]

I am also worried about DSS feeling like he has to take care of his mom, now and in adulthood! I'm really worried about her taking his money for college. He's been talking about wanting to travel and go other places so we've been trying to encourage that a lot ... not sure he's ever said it to BM or how she would react.

On the movies thing, it's actually kind of sad. BM used to take kids to the movies all the time and they would say things like "dad, how come YOU never take us to the movies?" Then when she got a boyfriend for the first time she basically stopped taking them to the movies and ever since they haven't really seen a whole lot of movies with her. Nowadays DH takes the kids to the movies pretty infrequently, like maybe once a month or every couple months, and BM gets really aggressive and territorial, like sends DH digs about how he can't parent so he sticks them in front of a screen (more projection for sure).

Athene, "the most humble person": I know it's concerning but I also had to laugh! That sounds like something I would have said as a teenager and I'm pretty sure I don't have a PD. She'll probably look back on that conversation with her dad years later and kick herself.

Similarly, SL, I think your husband's conversations with SD are probably sinking in on a deeper level, even if she doesn't respond right away. At least he's planting the seeds for a healthier world view.

[Stepping lightly]

Athene-we have a similar issue with DSD.  She claims to be a humanitarian where all people should be treated with respect and kindness etc, etc. and then she spits out racist/prejudice comments.  The first time DH informed her that the statement she made was prejudice, you saw the surprise in her eyes.  Now, it's not prejudice if SHE is saying it, and certain groups of people deserve certain treatment....but she's still the honorable one in her mind.    She actually self classified as a "minority" and attacks anyone that doesn't understand her, so there are a lot of conversations about how that will not really help her cause and she will isolate herself.

PL- I guess movies are a common conflict point for PDs.  DH used to take the kids to movies all the time when they were little, it was sort of their thing to do.  As they got older, and the conflict heated up (and I was present), there were multiple issues.  At first, the kids would say "Mom never gets to take us to new movies because we always go with you", which at that point was not even close to true (and she DID take them), then as time went on (and I assume BM didn't want to go to the movies), DSD would refuse to go to new movies because "It's ridiculous to pay for a new movie and not wait until it is in the cheaper theater" (BM has convinced them she is destitute).    Our local theater recently renovated and they now have the comfy reclining seats.  DSD says "I hate that theater, the seats are TOO comfortable"..haha...you can't win!  We now go to movies maybe 2x/year.

[athene1399]

Don't feel bad for laughing, Penny. SO and I were laughing as he told me the story (I wasn't there). It's just so ridiculous. And thank's for reframing. Sometimes it's hard to tell if it's normal teen behavior or due to BM's influence.

SL- I am so sorry to hear that about DSD. Do you think when she feels "attacked" she feels the attack is due to her minority status so uses that as her justification for fighting back? Like "these people are being mean to me because of my race so I should fight back"? Maybe she's misunderstanding something. I'm not sure. Or she just thinks she can pick on people because she's a minority race. I just to pick on some kids and thought it was okay because everyone else picked on me or bullied me. Kind of the same, yet different due to their not being a race component. I felt like I had a right to do it because I was living through it. Something like that. Really can't explain it too well. Probably don't fully understand it myself. I feel  guilty about it now because I know it still not right regardless of what else was going on. Maybe it's just a phase with DSD and she'll understand one day.

[Stepping lightly]

hi Athene-  She's not a minority race, she considers herself a minority based on her sexual preferences.  She is in middle school, and she is very "in your face" about it.  I honestly think the behavior is because of BM.  BM considers herself a social justice warrior, and DSD's situation gives her tons of opportunity to put people in their place.  DSD is so desperate for BM's love and attention, this situation is perfect for her.

There have been all kinds of threats against teachers who were deemed to have said something wrong, or accused of being homophobic.  DSD actually said that the principal is afraid of BM, and by association her as well.  She was proud of it.  Basically, the situation is that the principal and teachers know not to cross BM/DSD or they will lose their job and be vilified. 

[athene1399]

As mush as that is still a minority group, it still doesn't give you the right to bully people. I am sorry to hear, SL. That sounds like a bad situation. Like BM has given DSD permission to be mean to people to make sure they aren't being prejudiced against her. Like showing her fear is the way to get respect.  Maybe try to find positive examples of others who had to stand up for their rights, but in a non-mean way, to show there are other options? Maye find articles about injustice and talk about how you both think someone can stand up for their rights in a positive and non-bullying way. Or maybe do a Pride march together or something in the community that supports the LGTBQ+ community. It may help to show her you are on her side while showing positive ways to make a difference.

[Heavyhat]

Athene, is your SD an only child? My SD7 is and she too has the perfection issue. She is always differentiating herself from her step-brothers (my kids, DS7 & DS9) as the one who was behaving appropriately, and even the one who was trying to teach them how they should behave appropriately. I often remind her that it's great to model good behavior but it's not her job to enforce rules or teach them how they should behave. The boys feel quite resentful of her when she does this.  At the same time she says she "acts crazy" at uNPDBM's house. So it seems she has different expectations for herself at each house. She is a very capable and loving kid but we are noticing some low self-esteem issues and clearly a perfectionist tendency. I wonder if she is being treated as both SC and GC at BM's house.

I want her to feel free to be herself here (anywhere!) and to be able to think more about what SHE is doing and what her interests are than what everyone else around her is doing.

Does anyone else have experience with this?

I haven't written much, so just to give an overview/update: uNPDBM has gotten much better (she seldom threatenss to take away parenting time, no more horrible emails to our friends and family, and she hasn't accosted us in public in a couple of years). She's in a new, pretty solid relationship now, so that seems to have helped. My SO and her communicate solely through OFW and he does not respond to anything that's not relevant to the business of parenting. BM and I are strictly NC - after far too many abusive texts and emails from her I blocked her. I am alternately terrified of her and sorry for her. Most of the time I simply try to put her out of my mind. Our goal in all of this is to help our kids to be good people, so any effort to understand BM is for that effort and our own piece of mind. Thank you to everybody who posts here. I've learned so much from you!

[athene1399]

Heavyhat,

What you described may kind of be going on. SD is the only child between SO and BM, but BM has two older boys who really want nothing to do with BM. Perhaps SD feels the pressure to be GC to make BM happy? Maybe she tries to be the perfect kid for her? I really don't know. But like you were saying about your SD, she has the perfectionist tendency with the low self-esteem. I try to tell her she is perfect just the way she is. And we will always be proud of her no matter what.

I am also glad that uNPDBM has gotten better for you. I know what it's like to not know what to wake up to (with BM sending threats). We are in a bit of a lull in our BM's bad behaviour right now, too. I expect the other shoe to drop around the corner, but try not to dwell on that. Let's enjoy the break for now! 

[Penny Lane]

Hi Heavyhat, oh my gosh everything you said resonates with me so hard.

DSS does basically everything you described. He'll "correct" DSD and try to prove that he's better than she is - both better-behaved and better at doing stuff. He's also, like you say, capable and loving but with some self-esteem issues and perfectionism. Both kids have a little bit of a competitive streak but he takes it to the next level - like if we compliment DSD he'll jump in and say "I'm good at that too!" It seems like he really needs us to think he's more mature/better behaved than DSD. And sometimes he'll tell her not to do something that he wouldn't do, but it's not necessarily against the rules. It's pretty frustrating for everyone, especially her, and we really try to put a stop to it. At this point DSD knows she doesn't have to listen to him.

I always wondered if it was because BM was favoring him. So coming to our house where the kids are generally treated equally, he's feeling like things are weighted unfairly in DSD's direction.

I wonder what "acts crazy" means for your DSD in this context. Is she really that wild, or is her mom telling her that so that she'll get in line (but really she's just a normal kid)?

I also had to laugh at your definition of "much better" - doing less than the bare minimum of good coparenting but at least she's being a little less of an emotional terrorist than she was previously! But you gotta take victories where you can get them, right? I can't wait until I can say that our BM hasn't accosted us in public in a couple years. Big hugs, we are in the exact same boat as you.

[Heavyhat]

Thanks, Penny Lane. We'll see how this all shakes out when the kids are teenagers! 
Re "acting crazy": I have seen her get pretty amped up, but I think it's just normal kid stuff and lack of boundaries from being an only child half the time, i.e. not having a sibling around to constantly tell you when you're getting out of hand. Either way, she obviously hears it a lot from BM and that's concerning to me.