older kids and honest conversations

[athene1399]

Thank you for sharing, Findingmyvoice. I've wanted to discuss with SD18 her mom's mental illness, but am afraid she would just take it the wrong way. Since end of October, she's been staying at BM's full time even though SO technically has custody. I only see her once a month now when it used to be daily. Her excuse was "the back and forth is too much". But I don't know if we should take the few chances we get to see her to talk about her mom's illness (officially bipolar, but once was diagnosed BPD). When we've tried to bring it up years ago when we were going through court SD got very defensive and shut down. Basically all we said was SO wanted a judge to decide if SO should remain the custodial guardian, and brought up how her mom's rages are inappropriate (I think we actually said "not cool"). SD was 15 while this was going on. At the time BM was raging on both SD and SO. We tried to tell SD that the rages were not her fault and her mom shouldn't act like that, but sometimes can't help it. She just shuts down and doesn't want to talk about it. Her mom recently has been raging on their neighbor, and SD sees nothing wrong with the behavior and thinks the neighbor deserves to be yelled at by BM. We've left the whole thing alone, kind of hoping SD will figure it out on her own and be more receptive to talk about it later. We just don't know what the right thing to do is. SD seems to assume the parent role with BM, and when we were in court years ago SD wanted her mom to have custody so that she could get child support from SO to pay her bills. I just feel SD is still in the fog so she is not ready to talk about it, but maybe we should try? I'm afraid to push her away, especially since we hardly see her.

Sorry if I hijacked this thread.

[Stepping lightly]

Hi Athene,

It's such a hard position to be in!  You have the information that you feel would help SD  understand her circumstances and experiences, but it's really a land mine putting it out there.  I would honestly be very, very careful based on your recent posts about SD pulling away.  I think the way you have handled it in the past with telling her that the behaviors aren't her fault are good.  Even if you name the mental illness for her, that won't necessarily change her perspective of how her mom treats people.    She may even go MORE on the defensive of her mother because now she really "can't help it" and then there could be blame for everyone around her etc.  IMO, you are best served trying to model consistent and stable behavior.  When she talks about the neighbor situation, maybe use it as a gentle conversation about how to approach difficult people effectively without compromising your own values.  I have  a LOT of discussions with DSD about how she reacts to people she perceives as "offending" her.  BM has taught her to be aggressive and "stand up for her rights", but I am trying to talk to her about how that is not really going to help anything in the long term.  Wouldn't she be better served by reacting with kindness and trying to help that person understand why she is offended in a friendly way, so in the future they have a better understanding of her situation.  DSD is motivated by the idea of changing the world for the better, so it really helps to get her to see the "long game".  She may not always admit it, but I see her wheels start turning. And to be fair, BM has also taught her to see EVERYTHING as "offensive", so she is really really not served well by reacting to it.  BM is trying to create her very own little mini-PD.

Just remember- it's the long game for us too.  Some days it will feel like we are losing, and the kids are spiraling down this PD hole.  Other days, they peak their head out and remind us that they are still in there...and there is still hope.  There is the constant resetting of rational and even thinking, just think of it as job security as a stepmom!

[athene1399]

BM has taught her to be aggressive and "stand up for her rights", but I am trying to talk to her about how that is not really going to help anything in the long term.

I'm am so glad you brought this up because we have the same things going on. I think the idea of nicely explaining why you are offended so it becomes a learning experience for both parties. I will have to try that. And thank you for pointing out discussing BM's mental issues may currently lead to SD getting more defensive. I think it's just something I will have to keep my "feelers" out for to see when she is ready to talk about it. Who knows, maybe she will never be ready.

[Penny Lane]

Findingmyvoice, thank you for posting this! Everything you said was wise and on the mark. I'm going to refer back to this often, I think.

[Findingmyvoice]

Thanks Penny,
At the time I felt like it was a breakthrough and my son was acting closer to me, I even got the odd hug when leaving the house in the morning.
But after a few evenings at his mom's house it has started to shift again.

Initially I stayed away from talking about this because I got a stern warning from the judge about talking to the kids about adult issues.
This was because I had looked at a few homes and the kids were bugging me about when we could move.
I told them that we couldn't move yet, I didn't know when we would be able to move and that mom and dad have to work things out first. 
Somehow this got twisted to "it's moms fault we can't get a new house", probably by exPDw.  The kids apparently told her that they were looking at houses and asked her a similar question.

I didn't want something like that to come up in court again. 
However, since I had a recommendation from a counselor to fall back on and I was truly doing it in the interests of my kids I felt safe talking to him.
He may go to his mom and tell her "dad said you are mentally ill" and I will have to defend myself in front of a judge, but I am prepared to explain myself.

Athene and SL,
I know how hard it is to watch a child get molded by someone that has such warped thinking.
Its tough to think that he may decide to live with her when he is older.
It would be bad for his emotional development, but there is not much that can be done once he is old enough to make that decision for himself.

There are shocking similarities between things that PDs say.  ExBPDw often used to use the term "standing up for your rights" to justify her own bad behavior or treating others badly.  Standing up for her rights meant stonewalling, yelling, insults, kicking people out of the house, threats, etc. etc. 
She would often say that I let people walk all over me if i was kind, patient, cooperative and collaborated with people. 
She thought if she didn't get exactly what she wanted that she had lost something. She didn't care who she offended or hurt in order to get her way or control people.
My kids have used some of her phrases and tactics at times and I also have to explain how to deal with people properly.  They don't have a full understanding of how to approach people when you have a problem that you want to resolve.
When you approach aggressively with blame, accusations, threats and harsh language there is no hope of resolving anything. 
You can only hope to resolve issues if you approach with the intent of understanding and coming to a mutual solution. 
Even if the solution is that you can't agree and go your own ways.

She also thought that if she was offended the bad person that offended her must be punished in some way.  Get over yourself!

[sonto92]

Finding my voice - thanks for the response.  The feedback I got from you was very helpful.  I have put some counseling in place for my 15 y/o son and I starting next week.  I had a meeting with my BPDx and our respective attorneys before Christmas.  During this meeting, we discussed next steps for getting my son back at my house.    We discussed the work that we have been doing with our former family therapist and it is always interesting to see two different perceptions of the same event.  In the time we had been working with this person, we had been able to sit down in a room for an hour on four different occasions - together - to discuss problems we have been having with our son.  This has not ever happened in the last 10 years since our divorce, and I described this as a positive. 
My BPDx chimed in - in her perception, this therapist is useless and nothing good has come out of any of it.  My BPDx also told everyone in the room that I told my son during a session that he was not welcome at my house, which was a complete lie, and I called her out on it.  She wanted to go around and around on this and I told her that if it needed to be clarified by the therapist, it could (and was done).  The therapist emailed a session summary to both of us that clearly detailed that in no way did I ever tell our son he was not welcome at my house.  The summary also included some conversations that my son had with therapist.  When he was asked why he was treating me the way he was, he was doing it to "get dad to give up parenting time".  It's so friggin dysfunctional over there right now, and I had put a post up earlier about my 15 y/o son dating and 18 y/o girl that has a 5 month old baby - AND - baby's dad is in jail because he likes to violate restraining orders.  I messaged my BPDx about it and she told me that "I had all of my information wrong", that the girl is just a "family friend".  My son is also failing - miserably - at school and they are talking about sending him to an alternative school, which based on his academic ability, is a joke because he's a smart kid. 

[lilyflower236]

I agree with the advice to not talk specifically about a parent's mental health and diagnosis. Talk about behaviors, yes, but even be careful there because it can verge into disparagement territory.

I have a bipolar 2 diagnosis. I was misdiagnosed with depression for a long time. Once I started taking a mood stabilizer, during my divorce, my life improved so much. I also have participated in regular (biweekly or monthly as needed) talk therapy. I have fought to manage my symptoms, which mostly manifest as deep depression, and I am successful. I have been in a good place for about 3 years now and even before that it was more good than bad. My late 20s, before having kids, was rough.

I have gotten out in front of my ex and his wife's interpretation of my mental health. My son takes medication for ADHD. So I talk about taking my medication too. He gets counseling, and I get counseling. I try to be a role model for using coping tools — I tell him my strategies and we work on his strategies. I will do my damnedest to destigmatize mental illness in my home.

My diagnosis was used against me in court but my counselor and my son's counselor were able to attest to my stability and compliance with treatment. My ex and his wife have been treated for depression (I suspect she may have been treated for more) but of course that's not as "serious" of a diagnosis as bipolar to many people.

If anyone has read my previous posts the tl;dr version is my son's stepmother emotionally and verbally abused my son for years. I was able to prove it in court last year and my ex and his wife have to be supervised now.

I found out a few weeks ago my son's stepmother is talking about my mental health to him. I have already reported it to our parenting coordinator and documented this. There is NO reason for my ex and his wife to talk about my mental health to my son. None. If they have concerns about it, they can take it up with the coordinator or the judge. Full stop.

So I'm just putting that out there. I love the support of this forum, it has helped me immensely. But the stigmatizing of some mental health diagnoses bothers me. I'm sure I'm not the only poster here that has a diagnosis. It's not about the diagnosis, it's the behaviors. People can have a diagnosis and be great parents. My dream is to start a program or center to help parents with mental health struggles. I want to give others the support I've been fortunate to receive from my community and family.

[Penny Lane]

Thanks for this reminder Lilyflower! There are good people with mental health diagnoses and bad people with no diagnosis, and vice versa.

It's also a good reminder that all the coparents we talk about on this board (PD diagnosis or no) have a choice about their behavior. Even if it may be harder for them, it's still a choice. Sometimes I get stuck in the mentality of "well BM just can't do this" but that's not really true, there are other people who have worked through similar issues as she has and don't act terrible.

My therapist likes to encourage me to talk about patterns not diagnoses and maybe that's more helpful. Maybe instead of talking about mom's mental illness it's things like, mom has a hard time accepting blame (I would never say that to my stepkids but it sounds like some of you guys have a much more open dialogue about this stuff) or something like that. Or, sometimes mom's perception of what happened and my perception are very different and that's not how I remember it.

Again, thanks lilyflower for this kind and helpful reminder to all of us! It's given me some good stuff to think about in terms of teaching the kids about mental health, stigma and specifically how to talk to them about their mom.

[Latchkey]

My son is also failing - miserably - at school and they are talking about sending him to an alternative school, which based on his academic ability, is a joke because he's a smart kid.

sonto92, You know the alternative schools often have kids with high ability not working or able to work to their potential. There are smaller class sizes and teachers and staff trained to help. It's important that you visit the school in question and make sure it seems right for your DS. If it is not find other schools in your district area where he could attend. You might need to get an attorney or advocate. A therapeutic school placement can be a godsend for kids that are failing and struggling with issues like your DS. It also will not show that he ever attended the school on the transcript usually especially if he is able to transition back to his regular high school.

I agree with the advice to not talk specifically about a parent's mental health and diagnosis. Talk about behaviors, yes, but even be careful there because it can verge into disparagement territory.

I have a bipolar 2 diagnosis. I was misdiagnosed with depression for a long time. Once I started taking a mood stabilizer, during my divorce, my life improved so much. I also have participated in regular (biweekly or monthly as needed) talk therapy. I have fought to manage my symptoms, which mostly manifest as deep depression, and I am successful. I have been in a good place for about 3 years now and even before that it was more good than bad. My late 20s, before having kids, was rough.

I have gotten out in front of my ex and his wife's interpretation of my mental health. My son takes medication for ADHD. So I talk about taking my medication too. He gets counseling, and I get counseling. I try to be a role model for using coping tools — I tell him my strategies and we work on his strategies. I will do my damnedest to destigmatize mental illness in my home.

My diagnosis was used against me in court but my counselor and my son's counselor were able to attest to my stability and compliance with treatment. My ex and his wife have been treated for depression (I suspect she may have been treated for more) but of course that's not as "serious" of a diagnosis as bipolar to many people.

If anyone has read my previous posts the tl;dr version is my son's stepmother emotionally and verbally abused my son for years. I was able to prove it in court last year and my ex and his wife have to be supervised now.

I found out a few weeks ago my son's stepmother is talking about my mental health to him. I have already reported it to our parenting coordinator and documented this. There is NO reason for my ex and his wife to talk about my mental health to my son. None. If they have concerns about it, they can take it up with the coordinator or the judge. Full stop.

So I'm just putting that out there. I love the support of this forum, it has helped me immensely. But the stigmatizing of some mental health diagnoses bothers me. I'm sure I'm not the only poster here that has a diagnosis. It's not about the diagnosis, it's the behaviors. People can have a diagnosis and be great parents. My dream is to start a program or center to help parents with mental health struggles. I want to give others the support I've been fortunate to receive from my community and family.

Lilyflower,
you are right many here do have dx's and I think most end up here with some forms of Depression and CPTSD as they start on the forums for sure..... we work hard not to stigmatize the PDs in our lives on this forum. We also see no place in stigmatizing mental illness because that does not serve our purpose in any form. We are here to support and heal. We also specifically direct members who are looking for support for themselves or because of a BiPolar or Depressed or Schizophrenic or ADHD or whatever dx that is not also one with a PD (either dx or undx) to other forums.
We also often direct folks to a therapist, or other counselor, and real life support groups such as NAMI, CoDA, Al Anon.
If you see stigmatising please hit the report to moderator button.

Thanks for this reminder Lilyflower! There are good people with mental health diagnoses and bad people with no diagnosis, and vice versa.

It's also a good reminder that all the coparents we talk about on this board (PD diagnosis or no) have a choice about their behavior. Even if it may be harder for them, it's still a choice. Sometimes I get stuck in the mentality of "well BM just can't do this" but that's not really true, there are other people who have worked through similar issues as she has and don't act terrible.

My therapist likes to encourage me to talk about patterns not diagnoses and maybe that's more helpful. Maybe instead of talking about mom's mental illness it's things like, mom has a hard time accepting blame (I would never say that to my stepkids but it sounds like some of you guys have a much more open dialogue about this stuff) or something like that. Or, sometimes mom's perception of what happened and my perception are very different and that's not how I remember it.

Again, thanks lilyflower for this kind and helpful reminder to all of us! It's given me some good stuff to think about in terms of teaching the kids about mental health, stigma and specifically how to talk to them about their mom.

I agree with this. I also want to throw out there that sonto92 was initially talking about an adult son, "older kids" and I think it is appropriate to begin using the actual mental illness diagnostic terms with older children. I began when my older two were teens and they wanted to know answers as to why their BPD/ASPD Dad behaved the way he did.

[athene1399]

Thank you for sharing, Lillyflower! I have found it's easier to talk about my mental health with SD. BM uses her mental health as an excuse for her behaviors. I told SD I went through a phase where I did this too and it was terrible. I try to talk about how I can't control my feelings but I can control my behavior, even though it can be a challenge at times. Maybe that's the way to do it though, not mention a thing about BM but discuss things with my life that overlap so we can make it a relevant learning experience. SD is 18, but I still don't think she is ready to talk openly about her mom's behavior, but that's okay. I can find a way around that and can still make it therapeutic and educational. I had a lot of issues in my 20s and I can talk about that because some of it is similar to how BM acts at times. I also want SD to know that there's nothing wrong with going to talk to a counselor. It doesn't mean you are "sick" or there's something wrong with you. There's nothing wrong in asking for help.

Ultimately it is not BM's diagnoses or disorder that is the problem, it's how she behaves due to that diagnoses. Also, the one T that diagnosed her with BPD she walked away from. She chose not to get the help she needed. I think things are changing now because she showed her T all the unprovoked nasty emails/texts she has sent in the past to SO. Now her counselor is able to address this with her and she has been much better...to us anyway. There's so much stigma around BPD i can understand why BM walked away from that first T who diagnosed her with it. She wasn't ready to acknowledge that she may have it. I think she is starting to be ready now and is taking the first steps and I am proud of her.

Now I really hijacked this thread. Sorry all!

[Magnolia34]

I really struggle with the topic of talking to the kids about everything going on. Of course, no one disparages their mother and adult details aren't given. But when the kids are clearly in distress or there is obviously some kind of turmoil I don't know how you don't give them tools to work through it. I think there is definitely an age issue... the little ones don't need things explained the way the older kids do, but DSD15 and DSS 17 are noticing things and needing guidance.

For example, DSS17 got in some trouble at school a few months ago. There were some accusations made and the police ended up at his UBPD BM's front door one night. The situation was not handled well, her boyfriend said and did some things that could have gotten DSS in BIG trouble and BM let the police search his room without a warrant. DH wasn't notified about any of this until it was over but was able to speak with administrators and everything worked out really well. BM screamed and yelled at DSS and then completely backed out and wanted nothing to do with resolving the situation. DSS was really upset and felt like he was thrown under the bus. He couldn't understand why BM made some of the decisions she made or why she let her boyfriend get involved and make things worse. DH had a really genuine, heartfelt conversation (kind of like FindingMyVoice described a few messages back). He didn't make accusations or diagnoses but said (almost verbatim) some of the things FMV said. DSS seemed to be receptive and when DH told me about it I felt really good about DSS starting to get some tools and perspective in dealing with his mom.

I just think that depending on the kid, the age, and the situation there is an appropriate way to talk to these kids about the PD parent. My biggest fear is the thought of them being caught up in the drama and chaos for the rest of their lives and thinking it's normal. 

[athene1399]

Great insight, FMV. Thank you for sharing.