Situation with enF making sick to my stomach

[Dinah-sore]

I have had a hard weekend. I don't know why. Maybe because it was my BPDm's birthday last week. Idk. I had an emotional flashback on Friday and a panic attack that made me feel like I was having a heart attack. And now I just feel like I want to crawl in a cave and hide from the world. I am ignoring texts from anyone that is a mutual friend with BPDm. I am also feeling a lot of guilt for having any thought or belief that is different from the people around me. Like I am harming other people by not agreeing with them, or leading people astray unless I act like I agree. Weird.

Another thing is I feel icky about something and I want to get your thoughts on this. I have posted about my enF before. He enabled my mothers abuse and he still will not stand up to her; he takes the brunt of her rage, and does nothing. He has zero friends, and relies on me to vent and talk and he also talks to EVERYONE he sees. Acting like strangers are long time friends, sharing intimate things with them. I think I posted about how he gave me money to get a massage from a woman he described as very sexy that he met at the store and talked to, finding out she was a massage therapist, and telling her everything about his life and hard marriage, and even my health problems and he wants me to have her over to my house for two massages. Even though I told him I have another massage therapist.

Well, my dad often calls me to tell me about people he meets through work and how he talked to them about his problems with my mom. STRANGERS. Business associates. It is strange to me how he is unable to see that it is unprofessional. Most of the time it is women. He will even tell me that he jokes with some of them that when his wife dies he will take them out on a date.

So my dad has reconnected with one of my mom's old friends, behind my moms back. He has been secretly sending her poetry. He tells me about it, and he acts like he is a missionary for Jesus, because some of the poems talk about God. But he is obsessed. He drove three hours to where this woman now lives to drop off one of his poems. But he will justify it saying that it is "witnessing" his faith. He will say, "this is your mom's friend and your mom doesn't share her faith with her so I have to." My mom hasn't seen this friend in 25 years, they are just friends on social media. The thing that also makes me feel icky is that my dad will keep telling me that he has seen this woman naked. I guess my parents skinny dipped with her once. Gross right? I didn't need to know that. But my dad told me. And he keeps bringing it up like he doesn't know he already told me. "I saw her naked." I always say, "Oh dad, that is gross. I don't want to know that." and he just laughs as if it is funny.

I think it is weird. But I feel so guilty for even admitting that I think this is a weird scenario.

I know I need to set better boundaries with him.

I just feel like I am losing everybody, and since he isn't mean it isn't worth it. But the thing is, I feel so sick to my stomach about it. I also feel angry because my parents are so messed up. I feel like a little kid who wants to pout and complain that it isn't fair.

The thing about setting boundaries with him though is tricky, because the other day we were at a cousins sporting event. It was at a Christian school and there were children everywhere, and my dad was loudly spouting profanity and laughing and I kindly asked him to watch his language (not that I am offended, but for the sake of the children and polite manners. It just wasn't the time or place to use that language). And he got upset that I asked him and he said I am just like my mom. But I am not, I kindly asked him. BPDm scolds and threatens and even hits.

And I think he has problems with his memory because he tells me things over and over again. And he tells his work associates things over and over again. He forgets he already told me things. So when he tells me about these women and seeing my mom's friend naked, and how he drove three hours away to surprise her at work, but she wasn't there that day, and how mom would be mad at him, but he is "doing the Lord's work." I don't feel like I am talking to someone who is rational. I don't know if he is getting some early form of dementia, but he repeats himself all the time and he OBSESSES over the same topics.

This is just so hard for me to come to terms with the fact that neither one of my parents is healthy. This isn't healthy right?

I think it is harder though to see dysfunction in the person who was not the one who abused you, but who let it happen. Like I used to think we were in it together, but now I know that he was wrong to stand there and let it happen, do nothing, and sometimes even laugh at the abuse that was taking place.

Any thoughts would be really helpful to me processing this issue. <3 Thank you so much.

[JustKat]

This is just so hard for me to come to terms with the fact that neither one of my parents is healthy. This isn't healthy right?

Dinah-sore, I don't think it's unhealthy. I think it's normal. I mean, how are we supposed to come to terms with a lifetime of abuse at the hands of very disturbed people. Not classmates or co-workers, but our PARENTS. These were the people that were supposed to be the center of our worlds. They were supposed to take care of us, nurture us, love us. Instead, they caused irreparable harm to us. On purpose! We have every right to be angry.

I think it is harder though to see dysfunction in the person who was not the one who abused you, but who let it happen. Like I used to think we were in it together, but now I know that he was wrong to stand there and let it happen, do nothing, and sometimes even laugh at the abuse that was taking place.

I feel the exact same way about my father. My mother had NPD. What was HIS excuse? He let it happen, and yes, sometimes he did laugh at it while it was happening and I was suffering. I think that's why it's so much harder with the enFathers. We thought we were in it together, that we were both being abused by her. I always believed that my father had my back and was doing his best to protect me. Learning the truth crushed every piece of my soul. You can't make that kind of hurt just go away.

I'm now in my late 50s and am still unable to come to terms with what happened to me, and especially my enFather's betrayal. I go to therapy and I've learned to accept that my parents were emotionally defective, but that doesn't mean I can just get over it. We can learn to manage the hurt, but I don't think it's possible to completely erase it.

A professional might tell you that it's unhealthy to obsess over it, but they weren't there. Only someone who lived it truly understands it.

I think your emotional struggles are completely normal. And if it's not normal, well, I'm not normal either.

[RavenLady]

Dinah-sore...ICK. ICK. ICK. ICK. The way you describe your enF makes me feel a bit ill, too. Seriously, ick.

I wish I had more to offer, but that's all I got for now. Maybe someone less triggered by the ICK will have clarity on what to call all the ICK here.

It feels maybe a bit emotionally incestuous? Is that it? I'm not sure. Just...ICK.

Hugs, healing, and de-ickiness to you!

[WomanInterrupted]

Your father sounds a lot like unNPD Ray in his childish over-exuberance on certain topics and people and his need for, "Look at MEEEEEEEEE!", the way he has to tell the same stories over and over, and the VASTLY inappropriate oversharing, as well as keeping me on the phone *long* after I told him I had to go.   

For the record, those are just some of the reasons I was told Ray has probably been psychotic his entire adult life!   

And yes, I remember nicely asking certain things and being told I sound just like unBPD Didi, when that's the *last* person on earth I sound like.  I don't demand or demean - I say please and thank you.   

Medium Chill never worked on Ray - he just talked his way through it, around it, past it, and kept up with his narrative.  It was like I hadn't said a thing - he'd just keep talking, so I came up with new coping measures. I'd just shut that shit DOWN:

1.  Inappropriate talk or oversharing was met with a quiet, but firm, "Inappropriate" - like a lawyer would say, "Objection" in court.  If he kept going, I said it  louder, and with more force - not yelling, but *firm* - think of telling your dog to "Stay!"   

2.  If that didn't work, I'd stick my fingers in my ears, shake my head and start singing, "La la la la la, I can't heeaaaaaaaar youuuuuuuu!"

3.  Leaving - calmly pick up my coat and purse and exit, even if he was still talking at me.  I'd acknowledge he was talking, but *always keep moving to the door, out the door, to my car, and IN the car* - where I couldn't hear him - and wave goodbye, usually while he was still talking!   

4.  ONE warning that I was hanging up, before hanging up on him, whether he was still babbling or not.

5.  "No," followed with, "Because I said so."

Medium Chill *did not work* - but THAT did.  When I'd tell Ray I couldn't do something or that didn't work for me, he'd demand to know, "WHY!?" - and since he couldn't actually listen to reason before cutting me off for yet another story, I'd keep it short - "Because I said so." 

6.  The same story, again, some more, again, some more, again, some more, again, some more, again    - "Dad.  You already told me that." - then *you* change the subject back to gardening or the weather.   

Give it a try - you might be amazed at how well it works.  You'll be able to make your own modifications, over time.   

You know him best.   

Your father sounds a lot like Ray in that he has *no* boundaries and is desperate for somebody - anybody - to pay some freaking attention to him, while not realizing he's coming off as a COD (Creepy Old Dude).

In best case scenarios, women blow him off and ghost him after the "feel like I should be nice to the lonely old guy" period wears off, but in worst case scenarios, your father is ripe to be taken advantage of and financially abused.

Still  - that's HIS problem, and you don't want to and don't *have* to hear about any of it if you just start shutting him down, any time you don't like what you're hearing, or it makes you uncomfortable.   

Your dad, just like your mom, is a perpetual *victim.*  He can't stand his marriage, but won't leave, because he gets something out of it - and tries to rope you in as some kind of co-conspirator, which is the LAST thing he should be doing.

Worse, he tends to couch his creepiness toward women in "spreading God's word."   

I don't think that's really what he wants to spread.   

There is an Other, Other Option that I didn't have, because Didi was dead - you could always say, "Dad - these are things you'd be better off discussing with mom."

When he freaks out and says he can't, the reply can be, "Then why are you telling ME?  I am your DAUGHTER, not your FRIEND or your THERAPIST, so STOP."   

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's the only thing I've found that works on people like your dad.  You have to lay down *hard* boundaries and spell them out or do them -  and sometimes let your dad know that you know enough to get him in serious hot water with your mom, which is the last thing he wants.   

If he brings up the massage T again, that's how I'd frame it - either YOU can discuss it with mom or I can. 

You're not his friend, his T, his conscience, his partner in crime, a co-conspirator against a tyrant or an emotional toilet - you are his *adult daughter* and there are DEFINITE boundaries that need to be in place.

It may seem like you're losing a friend - you're not.  He never was your friend.  He was *supposed* to be your *father* and failed in every regard - just like Ray.

Your father was supposed to be the one to protect you - instead, he used you as a *shield to hide behind* or threw you to the wolves - hell, as long as the heat was off him, he didn't *care* what happened.

What kind of a man does that?  What kind of a human being does that?   

Now, he wants to be your buddy, or thinks you ARE buddies and it's you and him against your mom, and you'll continue to *be the shield you were, as a child, to protect a grown-ass man.*   

No.  That stops NOW.   

He married her - he can deal with her, and your days listening to what he gets up to are *over.*   

Shut it DOWN - any time you feel uncomfortable or awkward, or you just don't want to hear the same story again.

Shut it down *hard.*  NO room for argument.  We are not talking about this.

He will *hate* it  - but this isn't about him, it's about YOU.

And you deserve SO much better!

[FromTheSwamp]

Not only is the situation gross and inappropriate, but it's highly dangerous to your ability to keep any sort of tenuous peace with your mother.  If she were to find out that you knew that your father was doing any of these things with these women, she would be livid with you.  That's a very unfair position for your father to put you in.  It's not your job to protect either of them.   

[all4peace]

Dinah, I am so, so sorry. It is so painful to face the truth of our parents. I am starting to believe that if we have 1 deeply unhealthy parent, we actually have 2 (unless one left the other). It is by definition unhealthy to be an adult and let another adult be deeply unhealthy to children. It may look better, more gentle, more passive, but it's still terribly unhealthy.

I read the book recently Mothers Who Can't Love, and the author says that any parent who allows abuse has betrayed their chlid. A child relies on its parents for love, safety, nurturance, protection and more. To not receive that is a trauma, but to have the other parent ALLOW that to happen is trauma also.

When we are children, we psychologically need one parent to be "ok" for us. It would be too much for our tender psyches to face that both are not loving. But once we're adults we may eventually get to the place where we are finally strong enough to painfully and reluctantly face the truth about the "other" parent. I know how excruciating it is. I know how a person wants to weep, wail, tantrum and rage at the world that we didn't have ANY loving parents. I truly know, and most of us here do.

I feel like I'm almost on the other side. I have lost both sets of parents in a matter of years, facing multiple medical situations between me and DH, facing financial issues, raising teenagers, trying to work successfully. Here's what I can tell you: I wish I had separated sooner. Despite all this loss, so, so much loss, my life is better now than when both sets of parents were polluting, injuring, disrupting our lives. The process has been quite painful and years long, and I only wish we had done it sooner.

I know you've also suffered a terrible loss in a friend. Your lovely voice and beautiful heart shine through clearly on this forum. I trust you have other friends to lean on, or the ability to find more good people. I know you have faith, and daughters who love you and whom you love. Focus on everything that is good, hold onto your faith and strength, and do whatever it takes to be safe and healthy in your life. There's a lot of room for boundary setting with your F before cutting him out entirely. Believe me, if you're HIS only friend, he has a lot incentive to respect your wishes, although he still may not.

Hugs to you. This is so hard.