Decision Time is Coming

[pushit]

Hi there - I'm new to this forum, but have gotten well versed in PD's over the last 18 months or so.  I've posted my introduction here if you want some preliminary info:

https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=78409.0

The situation with my uPDw keeps deteriorating, to the point that I think divorce is almost inevitable.  She has been demanding that we move for three years, which I'm not against, but she has been completely resistant to discussing anything about it with me.  She has decided the neighborhood, type of house, and I just have to live with what she wants.  The kicker is there are homes just a mile or two away from the neighborhood she picked that I'd be perfectly happy with but she won't accept any compromise.  She has taken steps to move our life there by switching churches, kids schools, etc.  None of which I've been on board with.  She has been recruiting the kids (8,6,3) to guilt me into moving but I've been taking the high road on that and tell the kids that it's a grown up issue that mom and dad need to resolve.

There have been numerous things going on recently that are bringing me close to the point of filing. 

- She decided we needed to talk about finances, and we agreed to split some things up so we each have more control over our spending (aside from the main bills).  I was fine with it.
During this time she locked me out of bank accounts, cell phone accounts, etc and I had to run around to banks, the cell phone shop, and call utility providers to set up my own passwords and ways to access the accounts.  She demanded that I sign over Power of Attorney on our kids' college funds, I told her no and she got very angry.  (I haven't done anything dishonest with the college funds, or any of our other finances, for that matter)  None of these were discussed, I just kept getting surprised by her actions and having to counteract them.  Thankfully she didn't move any money around during this time.
- Recently she is upset with me over our taxes.  We have always filed jointly in the past, now she thinks she wants to file separately.  Her reasoning is that I started a side business and she is concerned over deductions (I'm able to show a loss for the first year).  I can understand having a concern, but the root issue is she doesn't trust me for whatever reason.  She has no reason not to trust me, and all of the deductions I'm showing are 100% legitimate.  I've already explained all this to her.  She wants to meet with our tax guy, but the last time we met with our financial advisor it ended with her screaming and crying about all the things I've supposedly done to her so I'm not excited to set any meeting up.  Now it's interesting because I have very little trust left in her and I could easily see her filing first and claiming all the deductions for the kids, mortgage interest, etc.  This morning when I left for work I took all the documents with me so I could scan them at work and have my own copies, just in case she hides everything.  She also has been keeping all of her documentation from me for some reason.
- She recently got demoted from a high level position at work, and I know she is struggling there with a new young boss that was hired for her old position.  I don't trust that she is going to be employed in six months.  Everything I'd heard until she got demoted was that it was all going great.  This ties into the moving thing.  The neighborhood she wants to move to is right next to her work, and she is constantly complaining about how she can't make life work in our current location.  (For reference, our commutes are roughly the same and about 25 minutes door to door)  Frankly, the current house works just fine and she doesn't plan her time very well.  I am able to make it to work, drop kids off, etc without having it be a crisis every day.

Those are the three main issues in the last month or two, along with the everyday PD behavior re: controlling communication, finding fault in everything I do, yelling at me and the kids, etc.

To be honest, even though I know divorce is likely the best thing it's scaring the crap out of me.  Scaring me mainly for the kids well being.

uPDw is a master manipulator, and has spread all kinds of stories about me over the last few years.  Thankfully my family doesn't believe her, and I've heard from her family, in confidence, that they take her stories with a big grain of salt.  My biggest fear is she will somehow find a sympathetic judge who will believe her, and I will end up on the short end of the stick as far as custody, and parental/financial decisions.  I don't want to imagine what life would be like for the kids if she were able to shut me out of their lives.

I have so many doubts and questions about staying/leaving.  Which is the best choice for the kids?  What games will uPDw continue to play after we're divorced?  How much worse can parental alienation get?  (I'm already labeled as bad by her, the kids tell me the things she says)  How should I leave - get an apartment and move out?  I don't want to spring it on the kids, but don't want me and my belongings in the house after I file.  How might she react?  I don't think she'd harm the kids, but is likely to round them up and drive off somewhere without telling me where.  How do I handle the accusations that will come my way?  She already tells people I'm abusive and an alcoholic, how much worse can it get?  How screwed up are things going to be for the kids when/if she moves another guy in right away?  (Her history is several long term relationships with very little time in between)  Would that just be another toxic relationship the kids are exposed to?

So all these doubts about it - but one thing pushes me to leave.  I know the kids are already impacted by her behavior, and there's nothing I can do about that.  But, if I leave and it actually works out okay with 50/50 time (or better) I could at least provide one calm household to be a refuge for them.  And......I could have my sanity restored by not living under the same roof as her.

So, I want to hear some thoughts from other people on your experiences and any advice you may have for me.  This situation is brutal, it's nowhere near a partnership and I've reached the end of my rope with her.

Thanks for listening.
pushit

[D.Dan]

I'm gonna throw this out there.... sounds like she might be preparing for something. I hope that's not it, It's just, you described her doing some of the things I did to prepare to leave my uPD ex, and some things I had to do after I left him.

I have 3 autistic kids with my ex, I choose to get child protective services involved (CFS, family protective services). I also made a to go bag for me and the kids and had a safety plan in place, in case things escalated to dangerous levels (which they did...).

I ended up fleeing to a homeless shelter with my kids for our safety.

I also had a DV group helping me. They helped me plan my strategy and figure out some logistics. They also helped me get a protection order.

I also relied more on outside perspective towards my situation then relying on my sense of safety. (My awareness of details was high but my sense of danger was dulled) when someone from the DV group wanted to inform the proper authorities to my situation, I let them.

These are some of what helped me.

[pushit]

I'm gonna throw this out there.... sounds like she might be preparing for something.

I really don't think so, but I can't be 100% about it as it's always possible.  Her M.O. is to stay in control of everything, that explains the behavior of making me scramble to get back into the accounts, demand I give her P.O.A. on the college funds, make me set up the appointment with the tax guy so I have to defend my deductions, etc.  The demands come and then they fade away, like usual.  What will probably happen with the taxes is she will blow up about it and then give me all the info I need to file jointly, whether or not we meet with our accountant.  Regarding the taxes, I may tell her that unless she makes a decision by April 1st I'm going to go ahead and file my own and she can worry about hers.  I'd be happy to split deductions fairly, just the act of putting her tax filing back in her court will probably be enough to get her to file jointly.

I believe she is threatened by a couple things.  She got demoted, while my job is going fine and I have several companies that want to hire me for more money.  I also started a side business which has been moderately successful, and got a bunch of accolades from family over Christmas about that.  The side business was something I started mainly because she has been so controlling with money, I don't get to do many fun things and I wanted extra income to fund some hobbies.  It was started with my own money that I had in an investment account, and nothing is tied to her so she can't control it or touch the money.  The narrative used to be that she was the big money maker, because she made about 10k more than me (silly, but that was her narrative).  Now the tables have turned.  Our salaries are the same, I have the option to make more if I switch jobs, and I have extra side income to boot.

Other than her going on the attack over some financial issues, I don't see any other behavior as if she plans to leave.  And if she does, I'm comfortable with that.  One of my concerns has been her telling the kids "dad abandoned you/us".  If she were to file, she can't play the victim and I would move forward with the divorce.

Another question I'll throw out there for everyone - I spoke with an attorney this morning, and got a lot of reassurance about my situation which felt good.  He said he's used to dealing with PDs, and as long as we focused on the well being of the kids he felt sure he could get 50/50 time for me and possible sole decision making on mental health and schooling decisions.  He based this on my description of her behavior and my concern about the kids.  He told me the high end cost would be about 20k for me (seems low??).  Honestly, it sounded too good to be true.  I can't get it out of my head that courts usually side with the mom and that scares me.  I have been keeping a journal, and I have audio recordings that show her behavior doesn't line up with what she'll tell people, so I think that would help.  Does this seem to be in line with other peoples' experiences, or is he blowing smoke to secure a client?  His online reviews are very good, and he didn't seem to be full of BS.  I plan to speak with a couple other attorneys as well.

[Rose1]

My gut feel too is that she's after money for some reason. A lot of her decisions are trying to control finances. Why?

Given your state of being on the cusp of a major decision there is absolutely no way I'd enter into any financial arrangement like a new house, mortgage etc until its resolved.

She may well be trying to dump you into a financially difficult situation. If you don't trust her go with your gut. Locking you out of bank accounts, moving kids schools etc are huge red flags.

[pushit]

My gut feel too is that she's after money for some reason. A lot of her decisions are trying to control finances. Why?

Given your state of being on the cusp of a major decision there is absolutely no way I'd enter into any financial arrangement like a new house, mortgage etc until its resolved.

She may well be trying to dump you into a financially difficult situation. If you don't trust her go with your gut. Locking you out of bank accounts, moving kids schools etc are huge red flags.

I should clarify about moving the kids to a different school, I shouldn't have listed that as something she did on her own as it was a little misleading.  They were initially enrolled in the district we live in.  When our oldest was in kindergarten (in 2015) she had a couple of very minor behavioral issues (the worst was she hid from the teacher once, the others were inattention based).  It wasn't a big deal to the school or me, and I saw it as her having some difficulty with transitioning from being at home with Grandma to being in school.  uPDw went on the warpath unfortunately.  She was convinced our daughter is gifted (which she is) and the school was mistreating her by not having her in the gifted program.  The school didn't start the gifted program until 2nd grade, that wasn't good enough for uPDw.  She called the gifted counselor and the principal, complained about the teacher, demanded our daughter be given special attention, and was ultimately told by the principal that perhaps we should find a new school to attend.  At the time, I was unaware of how big a problem uPDw has and was just realizing that I needed to get involved with schooling decisions.  By the time I had spoken with the teacher about it, all the bridges were burned.  (Now I attend all conferences and make sure I'm involved with any discussions with the school)

At first she demanded our kids attend a private school for gifted kids, at the cost of 15k/year per kid.   Roughly $500k to get them all through school, before even getting to college!
  She set up interviews, toured the school, etc without my knowledge.  I disagreed, and luckily when the kids were tested for gifted abilities the counselor recommended they stay in public school as they weren't gifted enough to need that level of education.

So, I agreed with moving the kids to the neighboring district.  At first we were planning to move there, but then our daughter got in as an out of district student.  I thought "Great! Now we don't have to move!"  Wrong-o.  uPDw decided everything about our house and neighborhood was bad, and the new school and neighborhood would be perfect.  She proceeded to blow up all relationships with our current neighbors, and now people don't talk to us much.  She changed churches to the one in that neighborhood, didn't discuss it with me.  Signs the kids up for activities near that area instead of by our current house.  All along she has been demanding we move, except the houses in this neighborhood are much smaller which I don't think work for us.  Most of the families in the neighborhood only have 1-2 kids so it can work for some people.  Like I said before, I would be happy to move into a house close by, just not in this particular neighborhood.  I've told her that if the houses in the neighborhood were bigger I would have no problem moving there, but it is what it is.  But uPDw won't be happy unless I entertain her image of the Utopian life that this neighborhood would supposedly create for us.

She keeps arguing from different angles.  1.  The kids won't be able to make friends unless they live there - Half the school is from out of district, and the neighborhood will eventually get split to two different junior high schools.  Plus, they have made friends just fine through school and activities.  Debunked.  2. The kids won't be able to get into junior high if we don't live in district - I spoke with the district admissions office and this is not true for junior high, but will be true for high school.  The areas I would move to are in district so that problem can be solved with a compromise.  Debunked.  3.  Our younger kids won't be able to get in - We get preference as soon as one of our kids goes there, we currently have two kids in this school.  Debunked.  4.  The commute is too hard - Their school is 1 mile from her work, and it's a 25 minute commute from our current house.  I have the same commute and it's a breeze.  I know many people that have it worse.  Moving there would shave 10 minutes off, her time management problems go far beyond this.  The neighborhood I want to move to would solve the commute as well, but it's still not acceptable.  Debunked.  5.  Finances.  We can't afford our current house - We've been there 5 years, haven't missed a payment on anything, the kids are in any activity they want, we have money to spend on fun things, and our net worth has increased.  We do have cash flow issues.  However, this is due to her spending and perpetuating the image that we are poor.  I routinely have to pull money from savings when she spends another $500 that she doesn't tell me about.

So - Long explanation, but it ties back to your question of "Why is she targeting finances?"  This is the game, and it's the one she can keep perpetuating by spending and then blaming me.  She has been telling people for years that I am mismanaging our money so we have to move to a less expensive house.  I've had to explain the situation to her family and mine, and they believe me.  She has sent pleading emails to my family, begging them to talk to me and help us out of our financial mess.  She has even gone as far as to tell them that I am stealing money from her, which of course is bunk.  It's ludicrous but it helped to show everyone what's really going on. 

The recent financial attacks are more of the same.  I'm not worried that she is planning an exit or going after money, because it's the same game just with a different target.  Besides, 99% of our money is tied up in accounts that either I control, or we both control and can't pull anything out without the other person's signature.  If we bought a new house we would sell our current one, so the only risk there is losing the realtor fee and moving costs we'd have to pay.

I have to say one big hang-up for me about moving is that I don't trust her to not have another blow up which would cause a need to move again.  She is in danger of losing her job, which could make her hate living close to there if she decided everything near her employer was evil.  Also, she has already proven that she is capable of blowing up a relationship with our kids' school.  Of course I can't have a discussion with her about any of that, because nothing is ever her fault and everyone else is to blame.  I've been biding my time and avoiding the move, to wait for that blow up to happen before we move somewhere.

[openskyblue]

I'm glad to hear that you've found a lawyer who has experience with PDs. However, I'd say there's a good chance your divorce will cost more than $20K. It sounds like staying in your marriage, however, may take an even greater toll on you.

I call the period you find yourself in right now the "What About This?" time. I spent a lot of time in that period of my marriage, when my NPD exhusband caused more financial, legal, and tax problems than humanly possible. I found myself in this cycle of thinking that I would leave after this or that thing happened or after I figured out what the upshot was of whatever hot water he'd gotten himself into. Then I realized what all these things had in common -- they kept me in the marriage.

My exhusband  had a refined and successful strategy to remain in control -- make trouble, keep everyone off balance, and keep it all coming. As the good wife/caretaker, I would run around trying to fix everything. Until I figured out it would never get fixed. That was a big light bulb moment for me.

I tell this story, because I see perhaps glimmers of the same in your story. I think it's good to try to predict your wife's behavior and motivations -- and it's even better to protect yourself in the ways that you are. But at the end of the day, crafting your own plan that works for you and your life and your kids' lives is really the strongest path. Once setting my life up so it is as stable as possible for me and my kids became the goal, everything else became secondary to that. It was a long and arduous slog, but I got there.

[pushit]

I'm glad to hear that you've found a lawyer who has experience with PDs. However, I'd say there's a good chance your divorce will cost more than $20K. It sounds like staying in your marriage, however, may take an even greater toll on you.

I call the period you find yourself in right now the "What About This?" time. I spent a lot of time in that period of my marriage, when my NPD exhusband caused more financial, legal, and tax problems than humanly possible. I found myself in this cycle of thinking that I would leave after this or that thing happened or after I figured out what the upshot was of whatever hot water he'd gotten himself into. Then I realized what all these things had in common -- they kept me in the marriage.

My exhusband  had a refined and successful strategy to remain in control -- make trouble, keep everyone off balance, and keep it all coming. As the good wife/caretaker, I would run around trying to fix everything. Until I figured out it would never get fixed. That was a big light bulb moment for me.

I tell this story, because I see perhaps glimmers of the same in your story. I think it's good to try to predict your wife's behavior and motivations -- and it's even better to protect yourself in the ways that you are. But at the end of the day, crafting your own plan that works for you and your life and your kids' lives is really the strongest path. Once setting my life up so it is as stable as possible for me and my kids became the goal, everything else became secondary to that. It was a long and arduous slog, but I got there.

How much more than $20k would you think?  I want to go into this with a realistic estimate.

I really don't have any illusions that things will get better, or spend any time thinking that her actions aren't a big deal, I think I see things for what they are.  So, I think I'm past that part of it.  Up to now, her actions haven't caused any damage to me or the kids as I've been able to put her problems back in her court.

I just can't get over the fear of "what if she's able to take the kids away from me?" and in general, the heartbreak it would cause them for me to leave.  I get along with them great and not seeing them every day would hurt a lot.  Maybe that gets better over time, as the times we'd have together would be less frequent but more fun.  I've had the idea that I'd wait until they're older and maybe it would be more of a relief to them since they could understand our problems better, but I'm not sure I can put it off much longer.

[Rose1]

Dhs exw also caused financial chaos. During that time she raked up 40k of fraudulent credit card debt which he had to pay. I would do research and count the cost very carefully. Divorce cost him dearly because of court rulings and his ex's reluctance to agree on anything (she filed). Find out the rules in your state. They vary considerably.

[Latchkey]

Hi pushit,
It does sound like something beyond just her wanting control is going on here with the finances and moving house and locking you out of accounts. Some of this seems very calculated and direct so I'd definitely be cautious and work with her to not pull any surprise tax filings. The demotion at work is not good for her and if she is unemployed do you think she's going to find a job easily again ?

My divorces with BPD/ASPDexH1 and NPD/ASPDexH2 were inexpensive considering I live in a big metro area of the US (under 4K each 10 years apart) because neither hired their own attorney and went pro se and cooperated with my attorney because there really were few assets and neither wanted more time or trouble with the kids. My kids are now 22, 19 and 7 and they are doing well but believe me, there's a ton of work that has gone and goes into being the Non parent in a parallel or co-parenting situation.
There are folks here that had cheaper divorces than me and others that have gone over 100k and counting. You have to look at the divorce as being a process and that each couple has a different way of getting through each separate part_ financial, custody, parenting agreement, assets, retirement, business, real estate, etc etc.

I'd recommend looking at the High Conflict institute web site. I'd also recommend talking to a few attorneys in your area who would be able to look at your situation and give you an idea of what kind of a retainer you'd need.

Latchkey

[Jumpy]

I spoke with an attorney this morning, and got a lot of reassurance about my situation which felt good.  He said he's used to dealing with PDs, and as long as we focused on the well being of the kids he felt sure he could get 50/50 time for me and possible sole decision making on mental health and schooling decisions.

I'm curious. How did you find a lawyer used to dealing with PDs? That sounds like a wild stroke of luck or some piece of insight that would benefit this whole community!

[pushit]

I'm curious. How did you find a lawyer used to dealing with PDs? That sounds like a wild stroke of luck or some piece of insight that would benefit this whole community!

Complete stroke of luck, and I'm not sure he has a TON of understanding of PDs or if some of it was just trying to get a client.  I described her behavior to him in a lengthy conversation, asked what his strategy would be in a case where the other party constantly blames me and makes false accusations, etc.  His replies were very good.  He talked about how he's dealt with this type of case plenty of times, and when you start subjecting the other party to the threat of psychological interviews and child investigators they tend to settle pretty quickly.  He knew that they don't like their issues and behavior becoming known which I thought was spot on.  At one point I mentioned I thought there were some mental issues, and he replied "sounds like she's a narcissist".  (I actually suspect borderline, but I like that he's able to come up with a guess that close)

When I started the conversation with him I just wanted to make very clear that this was not going to be an easy one, and to expect her to throw every accusation at me that she can, and try to make all kinds of court hearings out of nothing.  To me, I don't really care if they understand the psychology of PDs, but I think it's important to know what my lawyer will do when they are facing a mountain of circular, B.S. arguments from the other side.

Hi pushit,
It does sound like something beyond just her wanting control is going on here with the finances and moving house and locking you out of accounts. Some of this seems very calculated and direct so I'd definitely be cautious and work with her to not pull any surprise tax filings. The demotion at work is not good for her and if she is unemployed do you think she's going to find a job easily again ?

I'm happy to work with her on the taxes, but for now the documents are at my work so there will be no surprise filing.

I am growing more concerned about the possibility of her getting another job if she gets let go.  If she got let go, that could also start some other crazy happenings like maybe she would want to home-school the kids if she couldn't easily find work.  (Her two main focuses in life are work and the kids/education, those provide her identity)  Home-schooling, or generally her being more involved with the kids isn't good for the kids, so that's another reason pushing me in the direction of filing.

[Latchkey]

I would just say to look at her past work history. Some high functioning PDs thrive and get new jobs easily.

Another thing is to look at what her friends or family do. Does she have mostly high powered working mom friends or is she the only one and everyone else SAHM and/or homeschooling?

I think for now the best thing is to focus on what she is actually doing versus what she could possibly do if she's not actively doing this. Your attorney is not going to want to hear about your fears but about what is actually going on. You also can lose yourself in the hyper vigilant mind circles trying to predict her moves. Be prepared for the absolute worst behaviors but don't try to predict exactly how  that might happen if that makes sense.