Do you allow your children to see pd grandparents?

[boots40]

If so what measures do you put in place to safegaurd them.

If not - how did it pan out when you stopped visitations?

Thank you

[11JB68]

When I went nc it meant nc for ds too. She was to manipulative for me to trust her with him. She had a tendency to practice alienation tactics.

[boots40]

When I went nc it meant nc for ds too. She was to manipulative for me to trust her with him. She had a tendency to practice alienation tactics.

Good for you.  Please may I ask what you specifically mean by alienation tactics.   I think this is what MIL does.

DH takes children for supervised only, a couple of hours once a month.  Do you think I should stop this?  The kids seem to love going, and the supervision seems to have made MIL fairly impotent.  Should I fight the battle?

[Unvitation to Drama]

We tried LC and VLC contact for years with regard to DH and I. We set a precedent that the PD in-laws were welcome to see the grandchildren, but it would be supervised in our home or an agreed on location. Interestingly, when they no longer had carte blanche to take/do whatever they wanted with the kids...which showed me that my suspicions were correct, they were not honoring our wishes as parents....they had ZERO interest in spending time with our kids. If the kids aren't helping feed their supply...they aren't into it. Literal bonding with a child is of little interest or value to them. We went NC with them in 2013 (long story, and culmination of a lifetime of transgressions toward DH), which means our kids (ages 5 and 3) went no contact with them too. We didn't hear a word from them until sometime in 2017. FOUR YEARS later! Last year, we allowed both PD in-laws to see the children. Now, ages 8 & 10, my kids are independent little people. They were polite and interested at the visit. They were inquisitive and obviously wanted to learn more about the PD in laws. My son actually remember BPD MIL. But....my kids aren't needy, they don't have a needy bone in their body that would feed narcissistic supply. They aren't attention seeking, and don't feed into attention seeking behaviors since we have raised them that such behaviors are negative. Needless to say....it's been about a year and we haven't heard a PEEP from the in-laws about seeing the kids. In fact, NFIL told me when I last called to set up a visit that "I don't really want to be that type of grandparent." WHELP! Don't have to twist my arm. BPD MIL, on the other hand, saw DD (8) and I at a sporting event for another family member. She gave my 8 yo the silent treatment, and subsequently told her to "leaver her alone." On the way home, DD and I discussed it when she brought it up. I just asked her if that's how friends are supposed to treat one another. She said: "No! Friends are supposed to talk, and if they disagree work it out. I didn't have an argument with BPD MIL! That's not nice how she acted...I'm not sure I want to be her friend anymore." Kids are SMART. They pick up on more than I ever imagined.

[11JB68]

I think supervised is probably fine. For us, I needed nc and uPDm and uPDh were having power struggles,so neither of us could supervise. UPDm has been known to split people, talk about family members negatively to reach other, dpi things to alienate family members from each other. Etc etc etc

[Alexmom]

My three kids - who are young adults and a 17 yr old - continued to have a relationship with my IL's after I went NC with them.  By the time I decided to end my relationship with my IL's my kids were teens and their relationships with my IL's were established.  DH - who continued to have a relationship with his parents - would take our kids to his parents to visit without me a couple times a year.   
Every situation is different, but in my case, my MIL was deeply resentful that DH "left her" when he married me and she was very focused on "winning" DH back so that he would be loyal to her first and above all others including me.  So, she set on a course of inserting herself in our marriage and competing with me and in essence putting herself in situations in which DH would need to choose to support me or her .  She was an interloper.  She also refused to speak English when with DH and me, so she could exclude me from conversation between DH and her.  She played a lot of petty, mean girl games like this then would act surprised when she was called out as she had an external, sweet appearance to the world to mask what was a lot of resentment and unhappiness.  She also was very focused on establishing her presence in my home - she wanted to be in it, sleep in our marital bed, re wash, and fold DH's clothes, rearrange my kitchen to suit her, plant her favorite flowers in our front yard, put her decorative items in our home, etc.  She was kicked out of my home for this reason which happened before I went NC.
None of this was speculation as she came clean about her resentment and focus on being Number 1 in DH's life when she lost her ability to filter her behavior after she got sick.  She passed away last year, after a long and suffering 4 year terminal illness.
As far as my kids, she was good to them as she had no reason to compete with them for DH's loyalty and her resentment didn't flow to them.   However, my kids observed her behavior towards me, and heard conversations I had with DH about his mom and her behavior  As a result, they never formed a bond with her or FIL who was my MIL's chief enabler, and just did what she said.   They visited her very infrequently when she was sick, and when my MIL passed away, there was not much sadness.  Now that she is gone they do very little to reach out to FIL. 
Had I known what was in my MIL mind when I married DH and the deep resentment she had and focus on winning DH's loyalty back, I would have never allowed her to have a relationship with my kids.  However, like in many cases, all of this was slow to evolve and I was not equipped to handle it having never dealt with this type of behavior nor did I have the support of my DH as he too dismissed his mom's behavior not knowing what was in her mind until she came clean. 

[Poison Ivy]

Wow, I could have written this (except for ages of the children and that it was my ex's dad, not his mom, engaging in the bad behavior):  "My three kids - who are young adults and a 17 yr old - continued to have a relationship with my IL's after I went NC with them.  By the time I decided to end my relationship with my IL's my kids were teens and their relationships with my IL's were established.  DH - who continued to have a relationship with his parents - would take our kids to his parents to visit without me a couple times a year.   
Every situation is different, but in my case, my MIL was deeply resentful that DH "left her" when he married me and she was very focused on "winning" DH back so that he would be loyal to her first and above all others including me.  So, she set on a course of inserting herself in our marriage and competing with me and in essence putting herself in situations in which DH would need to choose to support me or her."

You might have guessed from my reference to my ex:  my former father-in-law succeeded in winning back his son and thus was a major cause of the death of my marriage.

As for our children: I told my then-husband what my issues were with his dad and I asked him to protect the children, if necessary.  He said he would.  Our children seem to have done okay.  It is interesting to me that my ex's parents have eight grandchildren, all now adults, and the only ones who have visited the grandparents in the last several years are my daughters, because my ex lives with his parents.   As far as I know, all the grandchildren see their other living grandparents regularly. So I think I was not just being overly sensitive when I discerned problems with my former FIL and decided to go VLC with him.

[candy]

When we were still in contact and DD was a baby, we had some sanitary rules we announced (and repeated again and again). We called NPDMIL out on infringements. It was basic stuff - please wash your hands before you touch the baby, please wash them after you touched or played with or fed your pet.

Same with baby's breastfeeding, starting on solids and overall nutrition: Basic stuff, baby's mom and dad decide, grandma follows their lead. Grandma gives baby some extra sugar to ,,make her happy"? Major rule breaker, this topic is not going to be discussed again.

DH and I always supervised MIL when she was holding DD. She was not allowed to take the baby out of our sight. (This made MIL very angry.) MIL had tried to get out of my reach with my crying babydaughter in her hold, which means there is a history there (not a mean DIL overreacting). DH agreed on the necessity of supervision.

When DD was slightly ill, when there were too many people or too much input anticipated, DH and I agreed on having DD with us, on our arms, no third party allowed. We planned out every visit and possible conflicts and pitfalls beforehand.

My DD being on this world let MIL communicate and enforce her astonishing belief to be entitled to have a say in the parenting of DD and to have a say in my marriage like I could never have imagined.

Now, how did it pan out?

Since we are NC (or given the ST for having boundaries), we haven't heard a word from the IL's concerning DD. NPDMIL and EnFIL do not seem to be interested in their grandchild if things do not go their way. They missed all of DD's first times, e.g. Thanksgiving, birthday, the holidays.
NC or ST started when DD was still a baby, so my experiences are about a IL-PD interacting with a defenseless, still totally dependent little baby. It has been eye-opening for me that even the most innocent little grandchild does not stop NPDMIL. My MIL puts herself, her needs first, regardless of the consequences. My FIL puts his wife's needs first. It is dangerous. It won't get better if the grandchild grows up. It won't!

It is NC for me, it is NC for DD. DH is not sure on what it is but he is too emotionally involved to make decisions. It is my part to protect DD and put our child first. I know that a part of DH respects and loves me for putting my foot down on this one.

My IL's are on a smear campaign against us. They have been sending FMs and awkward texts. They are trying to hoover DH, the family's scapegoat, back in. It is all about getting at DH. It is not about their grandchild at all, not the slightest little bit. They do not even pretend it is. But I guess they have a different show going for another audience.

I know the previous section does sound somewhat bitter. I cannot help it but will try to rephrase:
Unfortunately my toddler does not have loving grandparents who show an interest in her life. As they are not safe people to be around, we are glad they focus on other adults.

[accrep]

No contact.

We had to realize that we didn't have the energy to look after both kids and ward off any unhealthy and dangerous behavior from a person who should be medicated.

It's very sad.

[P&K]

Supervised. Ideally both parents present, never alone with either grandparent. Very few visits now.
I don't trust updMIL based on her behaviour towards me and others. She doesn't get alone time to satisfy her wants. I was treated as an incubator who happened to see through the BS and needed to be controlled. She doesn't get to play mommy, she doesn't get to 'prove' her superiority over us or be the star of the show.
Periods of NC, removal of my children from unfolding drama brought out rage and smears. When that backfired, major waifing leading to full rug sweep and acting like nothing happened.
We would be permanent NC if not for my hopeful DH. I have been clear about my bottom line and it's a work in progress.
I don't discuss her with my LOs in any capacity unless they ask and they rarely do at this point. My answers (when needed) are positive ones or brief and tactful.
Good luck! It's so hard sometimes, esp when it's not even your FOO.

[Solong]

I would allow supervised visits but DH wants NC/VLC right now, which I'm in support of.

Visits would need to be DH, myself, MIL and FIL present. No alcohol (she drinks too much when she's anxious and that's when the real nonsensicals take place). And somewhere neutral or our house/territory.

[jbtalt6]

DH and I have 7 kiddos. When we went NC (actually, we ran away from them...avoided them...before we ever knew the term "NC" lol) we only had one child, who was a few months old. The others were born while we were NC so there was never a relationship. Of course, we got accused of using the kids against them, but how on earth could we let the kids see the NarcILs if WE weren't??  It was never a punishment to them, although they took it as one and of course smeared us with that accusation. We simply lived our life and "grew our family" without their presence and interference. The kids are all adults now, ranging from 34 to 20, and  only one has sought them out for a relationship of sorts, stemming from curiosity he says. The others have no interest and understand why we stayed away. My middle daughter even THANKED US for keeping them out of their lives. Someone above pointed out that if the kids don't serve a purpose to the Narc-grandparents, they won't show much interest. That was true for us. Neither DH's mother nor father reached out to any of our kids, even as adults...except our oldest daughter when she turned 18. They were rebuffed, and never tried with any of the others. They ALWAYS made sure they knew where we were (the stalkers that they are) and even admitted watching the kids play from a distance. Creepy.

It's all panned out fine, except I have some issues with the one son who sought them out. Feels like betrayal...making "nice" with a set of grandparents who did nothing through the years except try to destroy his mother and father's marriage, therefore having no care for their grandchildren's well-being. Kinda feels "knifey" but that's my issue to deal with I suppose.

None of this is easy.

[Entj]

We have reduced contact to 1-2 times a year, when we visit our home country (where they live). We go there for summer vacations, so we see them briefly, 1-2 hours. It is supervised visits with the additional boundary that MIL is not allowed to take the kid to a different room. In the meanwhile, there are no video calls with the kid and no interaction other than typical wishes for Christmas or on major life events.

This is the current situation. We have been reducing contact over the 3.5 years the problems started. We have been trying the 1-2 a year for a couple of hours each time under the premise that MIL should be able to behave like an adult for 2-4 hours a year - but she proved us wrong, even that's too much contact  The optimal choice for us is to go NC, which I highly suspect will be a necessity at some point soon.

When I first joined here and described the situation back then, I was thinking of going no contact myself but allow my kid to go visit with DH - thinking naively 'what can she do to the baby'. People here wisely urged me to set some boundaries and never allow unsupervised time to MIL with the baby (and DH back then counted as unsupervised due to FOG). That was invaluable advice. A few years down the road, I'd offer the same advice to everyone dealing with disordered individuals. Minimum contact and under no circumstances unsupervised.

[Breakthrough]

It depends on your spouse.  Mine definitely wants contact and doesn't think his mom has a PD and tries to normalize her behaviour by comparing her to my parents.  He wants the kids to have contact too.  The contact is supposed to be supervised.  She seems to want a relationship with them, but I am sure at least part of the motivation  is that she can brag about it to her friends. I am VLC with them by choice. If I could choose and see I would, but that doesn't work for my husband because he wants me to be in contact, and when we visit he wants all of us to go. I have told him I am fine with him going with the kids on his own, but he refuses. He does agree that we need to limit contact, my kids  Love grandma, and I worry that she will get her hooks into them when they get older. I have told my husband about some of the examples that I've read about PD is becoming even more toxic in old age, and he seemed a little concerned, indicating he is at least partially Out of the FOG about his mother. He agrees we need to be careful about limited contact with his mother and our kids. My mother-in-law was also an interloper, but it became worse when we had children. She definitely  cause situations where my husband would have to choose between the two of us, and it was a huge strain on our marriage. Most of the time it was because they were visiting our home. Instead we've visited their home which has actually been easier surprisingly. We just always make sure we have our own vehicle rented so that we do not have to ask mother-in-law for anything.  Personally if you feel she is damaging enough I would keep the kids away from her as long as your husband agrees. My kids are young but want a relationship with grandma which I am fine with for now, as long as it's supervised and we don't see her exhibiting any harmful behaviours around them. I have seen some already, but thankfully the kids don't notice yet.  As the kids get older I am hoping they grow further away from her as her behaviours become more evident. I hope my husband is better  at shielding our kids from her then he was at shielding me from her. He was terrible about setting boundaries, but hopefully he has learned his lesson now, that only with very strict boundaries can we have interaction with her.

[Breakthrough]

We do, but  it's partly because my husband doesn't think that his mother has NPD.  He is still a little bit in the fog about her. He admits that she is not normal and she is very difficult, but he naturally developed coping strategies and strong boundaries with her in order to maintain a relationship in the same house. I don't think this is natural for other people to develop this, but he Had no problem developing strong boundaries with her and tells her almost nothing about his life even though he was living in the same house with her as an adult. Unfortunately he stopped and she was an interloper in our marriage and we had a really rough time getting through that until he agreed to put in strong boundaries. My parents in law are quite difficult, but we do allow contact with our children, and I have emphasize to my husband that I want to contact the supervisor, but he has allowed them to have unsupervised contact. So far my kids really love Their grandma, but she doesn't seem to exhibit all of the same toxic behaviours to them. I do notice that she does have some toxic behaviours and ideas about what she wants them to be when they grow up already, and she already seems to be plotting about trying to influence their lives. I have talk to my husband about this, and he does agree we need to have strong boundaries with her because of her tendency is to be controlling and to use people as her trophies. We don't want our grand scratch that we don't  their grandma, but she doesn't seem to exhibit all of the same types of behaviors to them. I do notice that she does have some toxic behaviors and ideas about what she wants them to be when they grow up already, and she already seems to plotting about trying to influence their lives. I have talk to my husband about this, and he does agree we need to have strong boundaries with her because of her tendencies to be controlling and to use people that's her trophies. We don't want  our kids to be used as her trophies. She isn't respectful of her wishes so we do have to be very careful when she is around our children. Our next visit will be while I'm working. I am hoping my husband will realize with the time alone with his parents how difficult they can be.  For an hour we do allow contact but it is quite limited because we live far away. I don't want my children to develop a close relationship to my mother-in-law because she is a toxic person. That being said she is kind to them for the most part. I worry more as they get older how she will behave towards them. They also want a relationship with her, and I want to respect their wishes as well.

[Pepin]

We have contact because DH thinks there is nothing wrong with PDmil.  He feels that it is good for the kids and his mom to have a relationship and wishes they had more of one.  While she was ok in the past for the most part (with some red flags), after FIL passed away her behavior took a turn for the worse.  She keeps her inner circle very close....meaning DH, his siblings and her sister.  PDmil really could care less about any of the spouses that have married into the family and she really doesn't give a hoot about any of the grandchildren.  If she did CARE, then she would show it.  Sadly, her behavior demonstrates otherwise....she doesn't talk to anyone except her inner circle.  As a result, the grand kids don't feel good about themselves because their grandma doesn't take any interest in them.  When we get together my kids (teens) are quiet for the most part or talk amongst themselves.  PDmil only talks with DH.....and then there is me....who kind of is stuck in the middle...

If I could have my way I would say to h*ll with PDmil and not have my kids interact with her ever again.  Her immature behavior is nothing to put on a pedestal and why do we need to be around it?  It serves no purpose other than aggravation.   

As for my father.....we have been NC for 11 years.  I gave him a chance and he blew it with me so he got axed from my life.  Thought he could improve himself after discarding me for 4 years but he fell right back into his bad behavior.  If he cannot keep himself in check with me, then he cannot have a relationship with my children. 

It sucks that my kids have no positive grandparents in their lives....and I feel very sorry for them. 

What bothers me more than anything is why is it that the older generation has to be this way?  Why can't they behave themselves and set a positive example?  After all the living that they have done, why do they need and demand so much attention on themselves?  Why can't they give attention from a place of love rather than being selfish?  They have so much to share but behave like babies.   

[qcdlvl]

I suspect my FIL is NPD or has some PD - the irrational levels of entitlement, the lack of empathy, the attempts at control, the self-importance, the extreme selfishness, the smear campaigns and the silent treatment all fit - and my MIL is definitely an enabler (though not a complete puppet) and wasn't a very good mother (my fiancée has PTSD from her childhood), though I don't think MIL has a PD (but is very much part of dysfunctional dynamics).
Contact between our child (we're expecting) and FIL is a non-issue as my fiancée is nearly NC herself (she doesn't initiate contact, which is tantamount to NC as His Majesty won't deign initiate contact like a mere mortal) and I'm NC, and I expect and hope that FIL won't take any interest in his grandchild, and logistics make face-to-face contact harder. If I'm mistaken, I will absolutely put my foot down about there being no contact unless supervised in person by me, and I'd prefer complete NC, and would try to convince my fiancée that FIL should have no contact with our child at all unless he apologizes to me and her for specific wrongdoings and agree to certain conditions, like no badmouthing of us as a precondition of even supervised contact.
Regarding MIL, we've agreed, at my insistence, that our child will never be under her unsupervised care. I don't trust her to keep a child safe.
Bad, abusive or negligent parents don't get a free pass with their grandkids, not in my book and in any case my child's welfare is far more important to me than MIL's or FIL's wishes.