What should you discuss with a divorce attorney?

[Jumpy]

After thinking about it for quite a while, I made an appointment with a divorce attorney. She said to come with questions. I have a lot of general questions about divorce in my state, but I'm struggling with what to share about my wife's uPPD, and what that could mean in a divorce. Any suggestions as to what I should ask, or how to approach it?

It occurs to me that the information I'm looking for could be in here somewhere already, so any hints as to where to look would be appreciated as well.

If you want more of my background, here is my post from the Welcome Mat:

https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=78131.0

The very brief summary – my uPPDw has kind of shut her life down because everyone is out to get her. There has been a price for her, my kids and me. I struggle and worry.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

[Poison Ivy]

I paid a lawyer to answer some questions about my divorce but didn't actually hire the person to represent me in the divorce.  One of the things I told her about and asked for suggestions regarding was my ex-husband's tendency to not communicate, e.g., not answering emails, not opening mail, not answering the phone.  The lawyer gave me good advice about how to document everything I did during the divorce to communicate with my husband. 

[pushit]

I'm going through this right now, too.  Things are brutal and getting worse, the kids are starting to act out in response to all the conflict so I need to get out and provide one calm household for them.  This can't go on any longer, it's just not healthy.

I'm currently interviewing attorneys and have spoken to two so far.  So, I can't say I have any answers for you but my feeling is that I want to know how they are going to handle a very difficult opponent - false accusations, lies, challenging everything, throwing every issue they can in my face, etc.  I feel like I don't want to come out and say PD to them, but I've broached the subject of possible mental illness and both have mentioned dealing with narcissistic opponents.

I read somewhere that most mentally healthy people that are unhappy in their marriage can settle amicably, therefore most lawyers and courts that see highly contentious cases have dealt with a lot of PDs even if they have no idea about it.  So, I think it's best to discuss the behavior patterns that are to be expected and see if they have an answer for how to handle it. 

just my $.02, I guess I'll be finding out in the next few months.....

Best of luck to you.

[Whiteheron]

In the initial consult, I went to my L and described what the kids and I were dealing with - behaviors, patterns, his threats to cut me off financially, his threats to DS. I asked about division of assets, what typical custody looked like in our state, child support, alimony. I was worried about $$, since I was a SAHM and he held access to the joint accounts. She didn't even blink. Said he sounds bipolar (I had only described the tip of the iceberg). I asked if she's dealt with difficult personalities before, she indicated she had (it's one of the reasons she was recommended to me). I asked about her experience, typical case length, what the process looked like in general. I had her walk me through the steps so I generally knew what to expect.

I went back to her a year later - after stbx was officially dx as bipolar (but I firmly believe either there's a PD heavily mixed in or he's 100% PD,) and after he had an affair. She told me to document EVERYTHING. I had already started a journal by this point, she wanted me to continue. When I paid her the retainer I also gave her an outline of my journal with some examples thrown in to highlight. I can say he is one of the most 'unusual' defendants she's gone up against.

[openskyblue]

My advice is to not hold back on the details of the difficulties of the marriage. Lawyers know the law — not psychology — so it's important to give them a very clear, unvarnished view of what you've been dealing with. Ask your lawyer what experience she has with cases involving a mentally ill spouse. Also, if you are worried about your kids' safety or your own, in the short or long term, be sure to be clear about that.

If you sense the lawyer is just not "getting it", this might not be the right lawyer for you, but you'll get answers. The first lawyer I interviewed told me emphatically that I needed to get my exhusband to go back to work and pay taxes, so I'd be out of debt and had hope of getting alimony. I just about fell off the chair laughing.

I hope this meeting goes well for you. It's a big step.

[11JB68]

I'm still undecided or maybe trying to make it work, but one of the best things I did when I started to come Out of the FOG was to meet with attorneys. In my area they offer free consultations. For some reason I was terrified. I did a lot of online research first and went armed with copiesof at least some basic financial info. Several months later I met with a second one. I didn't click with l #2 at all, and felt like she didn't get what I was trying to communicate about uPDh's possible pd. Had a muchbetter feeling about the first one, and emailed her some follow up questions. It was all very helpful. Even though I'm not sure yet if I want to move forward I felt like it was an accomplishment and that at least I was adding to my plan and knowledge.

[hhaw]

Jumpy:

I found that attorneys who practiced as ADA's (Assistant District Attorneys) have more capacity to understand PDs, and the chaos that surrounds them.

Asking for referrals to attorneys who specialize in high conflict divorces is good.  Some attorneys would rather crush their ankle than go to trial, so make sure you have one who doesn't mind trying a case.  ALL attorneys say they've SEEN IT ALL, or have been up against the worst of the worst, but I think most of them haven't, IME.  Don't take their word for it.  Ask for referrals... ask file clerks at the court house you'd be filing in.  Who would they hire if they needed a good high conflict attonrey?  You don't have to hire attonreys you talk to.  Talking to the best attorneys gives you more information AND means your wife won't be able to hire them.  You might not select an attorney, for real, until you know which Judge has your case.  Some attorneys are better for particular judges... I wouldn't hire one the Judge hates.  I did hire one who got our judge through law school, and that Judge still beat me up good..... imagine what he would have done to me had I kept the initial attorney I'd hired. OMG.

In fact, you might keep that in mind when you ask for referrals, bc the File Clerks should have info on who they'd hire IF you got whichever Judge you might get.  Get a list, and know what your options are.  Some attonreys are the darlings of their little communities.  Some are big fish, and some are scrappy fighters who won't be lazy or intimidated.  Some are just terrible, unprepared, and completely ignorant of high conflict PD tactics, and you'll be the one spitting fig. teeth every time  the PD does what you said they'd do, and your attorney shamed you for it, then it happened.  I find that those moments shouldn't be seen as a negative, but should be expected, and seen as a part of getting your attorney fully on board, and fighting for you like they'd fight for their own loved one.   

Most attorneys are used to going through a formula..... they aren't focused on protecting you, or your children, IME.  They assume everyone's a liar, and they tend to maximize courtesy for opposing counsels as priority, rather than your interests.  That's not always the case, but I've seen it so often I have to admit, it's a THING.  Even "good" attorneys can fall into that cadence, I've found.

The good news is, once the PD and their attorney jerk your attorney around, a bit or more, then your attorney might get more personally invested in their representation.  They might fight harder for your children.  They might go out of their way to creatively think outside the BILL YOU, exchange documents, and GET PAID cadence. 

Your best friend will be documentation.... document what you can, record if it's legal in your State, hire a good PI if you need to document conduct that's dangerous to the kids, or is dangerous to the PD, or yourself.  Your attorney is a tool, and you have to wield that tool.  You shouldn't depend on your attorney to lead, or get you through this, bc you're going to have to do that yourself, IME.

Document.  Organize your documents.  Get documentation BEFORE your wife knows you're thinking about divorce, or that you're documenting.  Once you fire that warning shot, things get exponentially harder, IME.

Get the kids into therapy BEFORE you file, if you can, or think it's wise.  Judges tend to keep things in place once the divorce is filed, and your wife will be fighting EVERYTHING you do, in ways you can't conceive of, once you've filed divorce, IME. 

Separate accounts, hide important documents, and cherished personal items..... involve third parties in your lives who can document, support, and witness before the divorce begins.

Always speak about your wife with compassion.  She is the mother of your children.  She is likely unwell, and people will punish you if you seem combative, or any of the things your wife would be accusing you of.

Important things an Attorney can tell you....
1.  The most difficult divorces are those where one party is resisting the divorce.

2.  YOU have to document the financial history yourself, so you better do it well ahead, and do it well.

3.  If you're the one who moves out, it can harm your case for getting custody.

4.  You might have to live with your wife, in the same house, during the divorce.  Think that one through. 

5.  It could be 2 or more years to get through a divorce, and PDs are good at pretending to settle, then pulling back the football at the last minute.  '

If I had to do it again, I would have pretended to settle, cut those moments back to bare minimum while appearing eager and willing, while continuing to prepare for trial, and doing what I could to get to the courtroom with economy of motion.  Spending all the family resources on failed attemtps to settle, then having nothing for trial, isn't optimum.

If you know the courtroom is likely the quickest way out of this nightmare, and into some stability for the kids, you'll be less freaked out by the idea of a trial, IME.

Don't hire an attorney who knows nothing about PDs if you can help it.  There are attorneys who hear, and GET everything when you say it the first time.  They're very rare.  Typically the good attorneys have to be told the same thing over and over, and they'll finally get it when they're ready to hear whatever it is you need them to hear.  Just be calm, and patient, and know you might have to present facts and evidence without getting upset when they slap you down (fig.)  They'll likely be happy to have whatever it is when the time is right.  Don't judge them.

Know they're your pony.  Your job is to pet your pony.  Take care of your pony.  Then ride your pony, if that's your pony. 

If your attorney is failing you, better to switch up, sooner than later. 

Pointing out an attonrey's failure can get you punished, or sabotaged.  Questioning their authority, or opinions  the wrong way can get you sabotaged.  These are uneasy facts, IME.  Not all attorneys operate that way. 

Attorneys like evidence.  Putting together a theory of your case AROUND that evidence is wise, IME.  Refraining from discussing facts you can't prove might be helpful when speaking to an attorney.  You don't want them wondering WHY your wife did what she did.... you don't want to appear as the kind of person who drives sane people to DO insane things, kwim?

Document your case.  Put safeguards in place before you file.  Know your wife will do things you can't imagine in order to gain your compliance.  Prepare for the worse, and expect double that trouble.

Get out in front of this as you can.   A good T for the kids... one who can document, and testify.... which means she should have some experience testifying, and advocating for kids in court..... some T s are terrible witnesses, IME.  Think this through.

When we have children with PDs we're stuck with terrible choices, IME.  We make peace with the fact we have zero good choices, and we mitigate harm as we can... and we do it all the time, to the best of our ability while seeking advocates who can help us in that goal.  It's an overwhelming, heartbreaking experience, and I don't think it really ends.  It just changes. 

There's going to be a formula for child support.  There will be basic financial documents you fill out.  What you want to know is how to protect yourself and your children.  You must have an attonrey who understands what you're up against, and you might not understand that till your wife shows you how far she's willing to go to get her way. Some PDs have a scorched earth policy, that others don't,  IME.  What does your gut tell you you're up against? 

I'm sorry this is general info.  I haven't read your history.  Placate your wife, or be well prepared to exert authority over her through the courts.  Those are your choices, IME, and they're both terrible ones, IME. 

Good luck,

[Free2Bme]

Thank you hhaw,
I only wish I had your synopsis 2.5 years and $100,000 ago.  My attorney was an expert in law , but I remained the expert about my ex.  I'm not entirely sure if she was ever on board and able to see his PD.  I chose mediation in order to avoid trial, my ex is fluent in legal speak because of his high profile executive job. I knew i would be a snowball in hell in a court room.
My attorney would consistently default to what she estimated a judge would rule in court, and we fashioned the details of the decree accordingly.  I agreed to whatever she suggested in order to move forward.  She brought in "neutral's", a CPA, a child psychologist, and a social worker. They all had a rate of $400/hr, as did the attorneys. We had multiple round table meetings to hash out details. All were present and each meeting lasted 4 hours, do the math.  My ex is obsessed with controlling money, this expensive process drove him to hate me even more as he watched his money go to the legal team. He became very unstable and punitive, he drug it out for almost 3 years.  I made many mistakes, but I also suspect it may have gone worse if I had not been so passive due to the trauma.  I think hhaw I has great advice , take it and document EVERYTHING.  You will get through this ((( )))

[hhaw]

Lord, I wish I knew all that before I filed for my divorce too, Free2bme.

Attorneys seem to handle all cases as thought they're equal, when they're just not.

hhaw

[Jumpy]

Your best friend will be documentation.... document what you can, record if it's legal in your State, hire a good PI if you need to document conduct that's dangerous to the kids, or is dangerous to the PD, or yourself.  Your attorney is a tool, and you have to wield that tool.  You shouldn't depend on your attorney to lead, or get you through this, bc you're going to have to do that yourself, IME.

Document.  Organize your documents.  Get documentation BEFORE your wife knows you're thinking about divorce, or that you're documenting.  Once you fire that warning shot, things get exponentially harder, IME.


Document your case.  Put safeguards in place before you file.  Know your wife will do things you can't imagine in order to gain your compliance.  Prepare for the worse, and expect double that trouble.

hhaw-

This is a wonderful post. Feels like it should be one of those that are permanent at the top. Thank you for spending the tremendous effort to do it. I did read this after I met with an attorney, but I suspect I will do some shopping, and will keep this top of mind.

Re: the documentation - I've seen that advice here a number of times. What are we documenting exactly? Weird behavior? Weird statements? Financial information?  Any insight is appreciated.

[openskyblue]

Great question on documenting. Divorce is mostly about two things -- money and kids. Mostly, you'll be documenting financial information, but you should also document anything that has to do with your kids and your wife's behavior with them too.

Financial documents/statements (for both you and your wife):
Bank accounts
Credit cards
Retirement accounts
Loans and mortgages
Insurance
Other assets -- land, cars, jewelry
* Anything you acquired during the marriage is joint property. Anything aquired before is sole property, pretty much.

Behavior documentation:
It's a good idea to keep a journal and note down events/episodes that occur that affect you and/or the kids. So long as you date the entries, that is enough. Also, once you get a lawyer, you can document by sending a descriptive email to your attorney, which will timestamp the communication.

[Poison Ivy]

Also document communications you have with your spouse or partner about requests that you might need to prove later.  For example, I either sent reminder emails or made notes regarding reminder telephone calls I made to my spouse after I had filed for divorce and he wasn't submitting forms that he was supposed to, per the court system. 

[hhaw]

Document child safety issues well.  Is PD getting child to Dr. Appts, activities, admin medications, using cold safety restraints, calmly supporting good routines, or failing any or all if these examples?

Is she drinking and driving?  If so, is child in vehicle?

Is PD behaving badly in front if child, neighbors, teachers, other family?  How can you document this in your State?  Some States gave different rules, look yours up.

I wish I'd located a good private detective and documented threats, assaults, cheating, and dangerous behaviors of all kinds.  It's difficult to find a competent PI, in my experience. 

If you need one, consider calling top criminal attorneys and asking for referrals.  Their staff may give you names, it you might need an appointment to get that information.  If you do pay for an hour, ask other questions about documenting things from computers, domestic violence laws, how to protect yourself if ( Insert any worries you have regarding your PD and how she might react/make accusations) and take good notes.

Being proactive can keep divorce with a PD from spiraling into years if expensive trauma, and worries about the kids, ime.

The mission is getting through and out of the process with economy if motion, expense, and trauma to your child, with the best possible Agreements in place, enforceable through the Courts.

If having full custody or shared custody is something you want or need to keep child safe, you better have good reason for asking, and be able to document that reason, ime.

Once the PD realizes you're documenting, she'll likely be more careful about being recorded, it witnessed doing unstable/unsafe things.

If you think you can come parent with her safely, while placating her, maybe don't start any wars that wouldn't happen.... I don't know your sitch.  I assume your PD is exhibiting behavior that you believe is harmful to your child/ren since you're posting here.

Whatever you think a Judge needs to see and hear, to rule in favor of your child's best interests, document THAT.

Stay focused on the child, always.  Always speak about, and document about the PD with compassion.  State facts without emotion.  Don't tell people what they must believe/do.

You're job is to show what the facts are, without holding expectations, then allow listeners to come to their own conclusions, while avoiding the optics of causing the PD's behavior, IME.

Look at it from an observers perspective.  What advice would you give a bloke in your position?

What would you find important as a Judge?

Knowing your child needs mom to be ok.....what is the best possible outcome you can strive and plan for?

There likely aren't going to be any good answers, but having reasonable goals, geared to mitigating harm, will be useful ime.

Don't waste time wishing things were different or better.  Assess, Accept and Act... Triple AAAs.

Think about what you can control and effect.  Don't waste time on things you can't.

Good luck,