Why reconcilation wouldn't work

[blues_cruise]

I've been thinking about the issue of reconciliation for a while now. Not because I want to reconcile, far from it, but because there is always an underlying social pressure to do so. I'm extremely private about my family situation and don't discuss it with anyone offline, bar my husband, but sometimes I hear other people's stories in places which don't have the same mutual understanding, experience and emotional maturity as Out of the FOG and I see people vilified for their estrangement from their parent.  It makes me so angry and sad to see this happen to people as I know how much pain and inner turmoil precedes no contact. I haven't spoken to N father for very nearly two years and now that I'm feeling so much more confident and at peace I sometimes wonder whether I could tolerate him in any way, shape or form just to get society off my back. It feels all sorts of wrong though and here's why:

The scapegoat does not dare break free of their role and get away with it. My 'insolence' would be punished with many more silent treatments and mind games, just to see how much further he could push it before I 'broke' again. Me coming back for more would be proof that I would always return eventually, even if he had to wait a few years and content himself with smearing me in the meantime, so why not in his eyes? At every social function there would be some kind of covert remark made implying that I'm a bad person for cutting him off, no doubt with sidelong looks and smirks at his flying monkey wife which would be denied if challenged,  and I would be made to feel two inches tall. I would not be heard and I would be expected to slide back into the previous role and return to taking all the emotional punches so that the rest of the family didn't have to. My growing confidence and self-esteem would be picked at relentlessly. We would be back to having phone calls where the whole intention on his part would be to talk about himself and to shame me. He proposed to his flying monkey several months into no contact, married her and now she is firmly an extension of him. It would always be one of me against two of them. 

I could go on. Basically it would be soul destroying. I sometimes feel guilty for thriving so much without him in my life, as though I shouldn't be doing as well as I am and that I should be heartbroken and desperately want my dad back. I just don't.  As a person he is really not nice at all and his cruelty to previous pets and other people has disgusted me. We never had a father and daughter bond when I was a child and he spent so little time with me. When we did spend time together he would end up raging and shouting at me over something minor (me getting a flat tyre on our one and only bike ride was a prime example...I was 10!) Scaring me as a very little girl was seen as a fun pastime for him. At the age of 3 or 4 he pretended to stab himself and he laughed as I screamed and cried in pure fear. That's probably my earliest memory of him actually. Why would I have any kind of bond with someone like that? Why should I be expected to want one?

I don't really know what people expect when they tout the idea of reconciliation, as though it's as simple as each side saying "sorry", having a hug and forgetting about it. It just would not work out like that for me. No contact will have been such a huge 'attack' on NF's already extremely fragile ego that I don't think it's something that he could move on from with any kind of emotional maturity or the ongoing self reflection required to prevent it from happening again. There is no incentive whatsoever to put myself through that.

Bit of a long post this, I didn't realise how much I need to write all this out until I started! Anyone relate at all? 

[moglow]

To me, reconciliation implies that the relationship is broken and we are repairing or agreeing to move past the damage. In situations like ours, it's not broken - it's nonexistent. There's no break because there's no relationship, no foundation to build upon from our earliest days. It's not a matter of something that happened (or was said) that drove us apart.

It sounds all well and good outside that small painful circle - that we apologize, take the gloves off, hug and we're all better. We're not and wouldn't be. We'd simply be subjecting ourselves to more of the same, the reason there never was a relationship.

But that's just my view. 

[Call Me Cordelia]

Blues, I am cheering for you after reading this post!!! I'm on the irreconcilable train too. I've come to conclude that my father will never be appeased. And my mother will always be his creature. We are done for good. I cannot go back to being in contact. Punishment would be due to me for ever and ever, because I would never let him be in control of me again. And even if I did, a narcissist never forgets and certainly never forgives. It would not be safe for my children. Not only because he's a toxic person, but because I believe him fully capable of trying something like getting CPS involved in false charges against me. Or just directly abusing them. He abused us as children, after all. If my parents know me at all they know the easiest way to hurt me is to hurt my children. Even if they can't do anything as dramatic as getting the children actually taken away, they could do a lot of damage. My own grandparents were pretty unhealthy on both sides. Even though we saw them infrequently, I'm figuring out now that they caused me some trauma as well. My number one goal in this is protecting my children. My kids don't need toxic grandparents. Allowing them to be put in the middle of our conflict or even come close to it in any way would be damaging. So nope, never gonna go back. It's freeing to let go of that hope/expectation/alabatross.

[Yael924]

Thank you so much for so writing so eloquently about this same terror I feel.

Theywillgetyouback Theywillgetyouback Theywillgetyouback Theywillgetyouback
Theywillgetyouback

To try to remind / defend myself, I even started a list for the GC & Enforcer -- what they have done to me, and ways they have blamed me (and other handy relatives) for their own misdeeds.

I haven't even gotten to the uPD yet. I'm not sure there is enough paper.

But I write it to make sure that once they realise that the Silent Treat(ment) isn't working, and they try to lure me back..I will have something to keep me Out of the FOG. (Sorry for the horrid run on sentence).

Revenge will be had.

I've tried to keep my LOs clear, but it's just not possible. In a moment of weakness, I told one LO that my FOO would try to hurt me thru her. So when they mysteriously withdrew promised financial support for buying a ratty used car without a word she was totally stressed, but not completely shocked. A bit shocked though, I think she really thought her GPs loved her. I think they do, but that doesn't mean they won't use money to make a flying monkey out of her.

I'm sure they are imagining a scenario like:
But Mom, can't you just get along so I can get my money?? PLEEEEASE! Wheedling, whining, stomping off to her room in a huff because Mom won't do this one teeny tiny thing!!!! (Or something like that)

Didn't happen. The kid is gonna be biking for 2 extra years, in all seasons, and she hasn't uttered a word of complaint or reproach to me.

So they will wait until they realize it didn't work and then they will try something else.

My DH is ever so gently suggesting that maybe I should...

Hard No. I'm out for good.

Stick to your gut instinct, and know that you are not alone in your feelings.

And please keep writing when you need to, because your post helped me put my own fear into words. And that will help keep me on track.
Thank you!

[blues_cruise]

To me, reconciliation implies that the relationship is broken and we are repairing or agreeing to move past the damage. In situations like ours, it's not broken - it's nonexistent. There's no break because there's no relationship, no foundation to build upon from our earliest days. It's not a matter of something that happened (or was said) that drove us apart.

Yes, I think you've described it well there. Whenever I see it encouraged for people to reconcile with a toxic parent and I apply it to my situation it feels akin to someone saying that you should just go back and carry on taking the abuse, because that's all it ever really was. I think it's assumed by anyone who judges the situation that he made a mistake somewhere and that I'm 'upset' about one incident, but it's actually a lifetime of covert abuse that developed into C-PTSD. I don't think my mental health would allow me contact with him anymore, I would be a nervous wreck constantly and struggle to cope. The ultimate say-so in whether or not we communicate is now granted by my body's reaction, and the very fact that my stomach contorts itself and my skin gets inflamed whenever I think on him or enablers too much means that it's a big fat no. 

Blues, I am cheering for you after reading this post!!! I'm on the irreconcilable train too. I've come to conclude that my father will never be appeased. And my mother will always be his creature. We are done for good. I cannot go back to being in contact. Punishment would be due to me for ever and ever, because I would never let him be in control of me again. And even if I did, a narcissist never forgets and certainly never forgives. It would not be safe for my children. Not only because he's a toxic person, but because I believe him fully capable of trying something like getting CPS involved in false charges against me. Or just directly abusing them. He abused us as children, after all. If my parents know me at all they know the easiest way to hurt me is to hurt my children. Even if they can't do anything as dramatic as getting the children actually taken away, they could do a lot of damage. My own grandparents were pretty unhealthy on both sides. Even though we saw them infrequently, I'm figuring out now that they caused me some trauma as well. My number one goal in this is protecting my children. My kids don't need toxic grandparents. Allowing them to be put in the middle of our conflict or even come close to it in any way would be damaging. So nope, never gonna go back. It's freeing to let go of that hope/expectation/alabatross.

I really admire you for putting your children's well-being first and though I don't have children, I would do the same if I did. I will never have children while living so close to him as I know it will just encourage unwanted contact in the form of him pretending that he wants to be a grandparent (which he doesn't, as proven a million times over with his existing grandchildren) and be used as a manipulation tool. I can imagine looking over my shoulder at every school play, wondering if he would be turning up uninvited to play the 'sad old man who just wants to see his family' act, with us both knowing full well that it's just a mind game.

I also had unhealthy, disordered grandparents. Certainly on NF's side there was a lot of dysfunction and it's blatantly where it's been passed down through generations. I think there might have been something going on on my mother's side too as she never seemed close or connected to her own mother, but I was young when the grandparents on that side died so I'm not entirely sure. You're right to break the cycle and pass on healthy values and behaviour to your own children. 

Thank you so much for so writing so eloquently about this same terror I feel.

Theywillgetyouback Theywillgetyouback Theywillgetyouback Theywillgetyouback
Theywillgetyouback

To try to remind / defend myself, I even started a list for the GC & Enforcer -- what they have done to me, and ways they have blamed me (and other handy relatives) for their own misdeeds.

I haven't even gotten to the uPD yet. I'm not sure there is enough paper.

I've done the same and have a massive list of things which have hurt me and which portray his true colours. Whenever I feel like I'm the crazy one I just have to look at the list and it reminds me that I'm safer without him. I've been adding to it for the last couple of years now and it's still growing as I remember things! It's not the individual things themselves that are important, it's the reminder that as a whole they form a completely unhealthy, toxic personality that I don't want to be subjected to. It's very easy to get carried away with what I want to see him as, rather than the reality and it serves to ground me.

I've tried to keep my LOs clear, but it's just not possible. In a moment of weakness, I told one LO that my FOO would try to hurt me thru her. So when they mysteriously withdrew promised financial support for buying a ratty used car without a word she was totally stressed, but not completely shocked. A bit shocked though, I think she really thought her GPs loved her. I think they do, but that doesn't mean they won't use money to make a flying monkey out of her.

I'm sure they are imagining a scenario like:
But Mom, can't you just get along so I can get my money?? PLEEEEASE! Wheedling, whining, stomping off to her room in a huff because Mom won't do this one teeny tiny thing!!!! (Or something like that)

Sigh, yes, using loved ones as tools for manipulation. I'm glad it's backfired on them! I suspect similar might be happening in my FOO with future inheritances granted by NF; he's always loved to throw that one about. I'm driven by integrity and genuine, healthy connection over money personally.

My DH is ever so gently suggesting that maybe I should...

Hard No. I'm out for good.

Stick to your gut instinct, and know that you are not alone in your feelings.

And please keep writing when you need to, because your post helped me put my own fear into words. And that will help keep me on track.
Thank you!

Your DH will mean well but even our closest loved ones can never really get it less they've been through it themselves. Like you, I'm definitely going to continue following my gut instinct. It feels like the only reasonable and healthy path open to me! I'm glad my post helped you voice your own fears. 

[daughter]

Once I was reconciled to notion that I was disinherited anyways, that my parents' sizable wealth would all go to my GC "princess" nsis, "i]because that's how your mother wants it[/i]" (enNF's excuse), non-possibility of reconciliation was easy for me to accept.  In that sense, it was easy.  My malevolent NBM and "boss of you" enNF so quickly and so clearly excised me from their notion of "our family" the precise minute I flickered into "time-out mode".  It had been demonstrated by daily dynamics of my FOO Family that I was low-value person.  I was aware before my NC decision that I was already partially disinherited, even while 99% compliant dutiful daughter.  As their designated and acknowledged SG-child, I was consistently treated as "outsider" anyways.  My needs and feelings were readily ignored.  My value was measured by my perceived usefulness, and by ability of my "superior people" FOO Family to belittle me to feel better about themselves.  This situation of mine doesn't lend itself to reconciliation, because my only role is to serve as SG-target.

And yes, I wouldn't, couldn't do that to my own children, to return in any manner to that toxic family dynamic where my FOC was SG-target too.

When people encourage "reconciliation", I think they're exposing their own unawareness of situation, and can/should be simply ignored.  Not all advice is well-taken.  Not all comments are worthy of consideration.   

[KeepingMyBlue]

Blues, I relate 100% and I needed the reminder today.

[Dukkha]

Great post and replies!  I totally agree and am committed to NC forever.
People who have not lived with serious PD folks will never understand.  The assumption is that the PD person did something hurtful once or twice, but is basically a good person and reconciliation is possible.
In my experience the PD person is actively malicious, and will never be able to change into someone safe.  NC is an act of self-protection and is both necessary and permanent.  It is not done on impulse, taken lightly, or the result of one particular hurtful event.

Most people don't get it, and I am happy for them not having been through something like this.

[Saywhat]

Hi blues_cruise,

I totally feel with you. Reconciliation is BS in these cases...

I have been estranged for 18 months and the societal pressure to reconcile is big. However, I feel more and more grounded in the truth that not everyone who has a child is a parent, and that just because they raised me doesn't mean I owe them for it.

I feel less and less ashamed to admit that I hope I never see my parents again (even though I only discuss the topic with people I feel safe with, that is my T and DH). They were abusive monsters and they should be ashamed of their behaviour. They have proven over and over again that they don't care about me and that they only want to have me around so that they have another punching bag to hit.

So why should I even care?

I feel with you.

[spring13]

blues_cruise, I'm glad you're standing strong. The societal pressure can be so stressful. The few people I confided in when I went NC with my uNPD/BPDm and enF did not understand at all.  Only my DH, who had seen enough of how my parents treated me, really understood how abusive they were.

But reconciliation is when TWO parties try to make amends. In our case, our PD parents never think they have done anything wrong. You can't reconcile, you can only grovel. That's the way they look at it. And you've decided you won't allow yourself to be abused anymore. I'm happy for you that you are protecting yourself!

[newlife33]

I sometimes feel guilty for thriving so much without him in my life, as though I shouldn't be doing as well as I am and that I should be heartbroken and desperately want my dad back. I just don't. 

I don't really know what people expect when they tout the idea of reconciliation, as though it's as simple as each side saying "sorry", having a hug and forgetting about it. It just would not work out like that for me. No contact will have been such a huge 'attack' on NF's already extremely fragile ego that I don't think it's something that he could move on from with any kind of emotional maturity or the ongoing self reflection required to prevent it from happening again. There is no incentive whatsoever to put myself through that.

Bit of a long post this, I didn't realise how much I need to write all this out until I started! Anyone relate at all?

I relate to everything you said, all of it.  I think too about how it would all play out if I did go back.  How it would be ok at first but then it would slowly degrade back into gaslighting, snide remarks, contemptive glances, emotional manipulation, backstabbing etc.  It's just not going to happen the way I would want it or how people see storybook reconciliations in movies.

And I feel it in my bones that guilt of having all my success on my own with no help from my family.  Not only did I thrive, but I did so in a abusive environment.  I don't want my shitty dad back or abusive aunt or phycho grandma, I just want to be left alone in peace. 

Do you find it hard to socialize?  I sometimes get into conversations and people get uncomfortable with me sometimes because if I tell them I don't talk to my family it gets weird.  If I talk to them about all I've done and accomplished on my own it gets weird or they don't believe it feel insecure.  And if I lie or talk around things I get frustrated and feel ashamed I have to hide myself.  It's maddeningly frustrating. 

[Karen]

I completely empathise with everything you stated Blues. It is a very hard situation. We, the abused - after probably decades of criticism, harsh words and toxic actions - find the courage to walk away, but are still punished. The average Joe will never understand our predicament. People have said, little realising the horror of their words to me, that my unBPD mother is probably too similar to me and that is why we clash. Others will say, "Oh she is old, they all get cranky later on." As we've all said, there isn't just a single issue, a bad argument or a personality clash, it's full-on cruelty on a daily basis. They just hate us to be happy. Once I started reading up on PDs it's so obvious. You have to remove yourself from their toxicity. I tried low contact but that takes a lot of discipline. The barbs still hurt even though you know it's their problem not yours.

I agree totally with Newlife that explaining to people is really hopeless. Even your favourite people will say "Oh you just have one mum, you have to love her warts and all. We're none of us perfect." The only way forward is to smooth over that conversation and move onto other topics.

I have no intention whatsoever in speaking to her again. I am happy to be shot of her and after nearly a year, I find I think of her less and less.

[emu_oil]

I don't really know what people expect when they tout the idea of reconciliation, as though it's as simple as each side saying "sorry", having a hug and forgetting about it. It just would not work out like that for me.

Very well put. I think a lot of toxic parents want to do what you described: hug it out and pretend like nothing happened. And "pretend like nothing happened" = never bring it up again, or else. Meanwhile, they are free to criticize us for setting a boundary and enjoying life without them. No thank you!

[Kiki81]

It's my interpretation of reconciliation that reconciliation takes place when the 2 parties agree to meet to hash out in full what went wrong enough to cause the estrangement. Typically, in the healthy population, it's a miscommunication.

In my case, past and current abuse and demands /entitlement by my Narents caused me to walk away from the whole thing once my request for respectful behavior was refused by them ( "We'll do just as we want when we want." )

I laff to think of reconciling after that---it's 100% open and honest on their parts, and I'd be a party to my own destruction to them 'reconcile.' No misunderstandings in my family: They know I'm on to them, that I no longer admire and worship them, and I know they value me so little that they won't change one thing in their behavior.

That is clarity for everyone.

[orb]

i am fortunate....i have not experienced any specific pressure from anybody to reconcile with my uNPDparents.
if anyone ever asks about my family, i straight up tell them that i have no contact at all with them, because i endured years and years and years of horrific abuse from them, and one day i realised i could just walk away.
however, of course, i see and hear all the same cultural and societal stuff that tells us that family is everything, family comes first, and that the love between parents and their children is supreme. and that message is pervasive, powerful, and persistent.
i am learning to say, well, my lived experience is pretty much the opposite of that, and that is valid for me.

[AMC]

I couldn't agree more with this post. People want things to be 'nice' again, and even though they offer up no real solution, saying things like, "I really wouldn't know what to do" "This is such a hard situation" "It's a really difficult situation", they can't quite make the leap and support you in your commitment to staying NC because they want to believe that time will just heal these wounds.

I think others love the idea of eventual reconciliation, where somewhere down the road you will give in and become this pool of zen that can let all kinds of abuse and bad behaviour glide off your back. It is nonsensical and frustrating to be met with that. Reconciliation is so often a far away solution given by people who don't want to believe that a relationship is beyond repair, because it is so hard to relate to and comfort someone in the grips of it

[Call Me Cordelia]

Yeah... I had someone close to my FOO tell me they believed my uNF would come around after his mother passes away. This person knew about my parents stealing from their daughters, the physical abuse, the constant and extreme controlling behavior ramping up over thirty years. If he only got worse after his father died, why would he get better after his mother goes? I believe this person meant well but holy cow!

I agree with AMC, people don't want to let go of the hope. Especially when they themselves have some FOG in their lives. Even if they aren't part of your particular dysfunction, codependency is EVERYWHERE. I think people who are aware of these issues and are committed to their strong boundaries are something of a challenge to the average person.

[LifeIsWorthLiving]

You are doing the best thing for yourself. No one else that insists on the "reconciliation" has to be subjected to the abuse that would result. If reconnecting meant getting punched in the face repeatedly, none of these people would be so insistent you reconcile.

I've been mostly no contact for a bit over a year (my parents sometimes show up so functions I'm at so I just avoid them). Quite a few people have suggested I just need some time and then I can go back to having a relationship with them. Friends don't get that the abuse won't stop. That's really the key. People think that it's all in the past and you should "get over it." But narcissists don't change and won't stop abusing their victims.

My parents are very old. They are probably not going to live much longer. Some of my siblings have claimed I'm holding a grudge, but none of them live as close to the parents as I do. They can enjoy the freedom that living hundreds of miles away brings.

I'm done ranting about my own situation. You are doing what you need to do for yourself. Society thinks that every parent loves their child. That's a load of crap. My parents don't know how to love. Sounds like neither does your dad.

[Sojourner17]

Reconciliation cannot happen unless the abusive person is able to pinpoint what they did that hurt you, say they are sorry for their behaviour and then over time show that their behaviour has changed through their actions (repentance).   
In my situation I really would like for reconciliation to happen but have yet to see any contriteness or repentance from either of my parents. Mom plays the waif and martyr and my dad says things like I need to get over it, that's the way he is all the while both do the same things over and over again.
I know it's hard to change... I've got some pretty big fleas myself... but the way I see it, keeping silent and not saying the first critical or harsh thought that comes into their mind would go a loonnnggg way in regards to starting on the road to reconciliation.

[Foggymoggy]

So they will wait until they realize it didn't work and then they will try something else.

Thank you, Blues Cruise and Yael, for sharing words I needed to see today. My Nfather initiated NC in writing over 4 years ago (the 5th such letter over 30 years). My DH and I have embraced and enjoyed the NC though we knew it was likely more a manipulative temper tantrum than a sincere desire for NC on Nfather's part. He stalks us through social media and shows up and events uninvited. He tries to bait me through texts and messaging apps. Usually, he is offering something of monetary value but today's message was a request to meet for coffee. I don't know why this isn't an obvious "No, thank you" like everything else. My stomach flipped as soon as I read it so duh - I should continue my "no, thank you" mantra. I'm glad this forum and this topic are here to get my brain back on track with my gut.

Reconciliation has no appeal to me either. He has hurt me more than every other person in my life combined. I have an otherwise wonderful, funny (if a little quirky) family and he has other caring people in his life, too. He is in his 80s now, and I've tried to imagine hearing the news of him being critically ill or dying. Societal norms would strongly suggest I would run to his side and be sad. That's not going to happen. I have mourned the loss of having a father since age 12 and also now realize he was a manipulative user even before that. NC is so much better.

One example: when I was 3 or 4, he took me to day care one morning. Typically, my mom would take me on her way to work as she worked full time. He didn't work or help around the house much so this was unusual and I was happy to have his attention. Before we got to day care, he stopped by the Mayor's house to give her a piece of his mind on something. We lived in a city with over 600,000 people; he didn't know her. It took me years to put it all together. She had a very unusual name so that was the initial thing that stuck with me - we went to _______ _______'s house early one morning. She had a thick robe on and her husband kept silent watch the whole time my dad was ranting in their front hall. Later, I realized she was our Mayor at the time and he likely took me as a ticket in. (Thankfully, my parents divorced when I was 4)

Thanks to everyone in this thread for keeping me pointed in the right direction. Some days are harder than others.