Parenting Agreement Violations

[Magnolia34]

I'm sure some of you have dealt with this situation already but it's a first for us and I'm curious as to whether there's any action that needs taken. My DH's uBPDx has been, for whatever reason, frantically scheduling random appointments for the kids the last two weeks. She pulled all of them out of school during her week, last week for one set of unnecessary appointments and then scheduled more during our week. I'm going to outline the rest of the event below because it wasn't making sense in paragraph form:

BM scheduled 2 appointments during our week in the middle of a school day (violation of parenting agreement but not worth fighting about).
BM offered to take the kids if DH couldn't.
DH was initially available to take them but his schedule changed.
DSS17 and DSD15 both reported having important classes they needed to attend during the time of the appointment.
DSS17 is in danger of not graduating and school participation is critical at this point.
DH said he would cancel the appointment and reschedule for another time-during our time so as not to inconvenience BM.
Kids were squirrely about whether or not DH was going to tell BM about the cancellation (of course, but not until he had rescheduled-nothing was urgent).
DSS17 Texted BM that evening and told her DH canceled the appointment.
BM texted DSS the next morning and told him she was coming to get him from school to take him to the appointment.
BM has yet to communicate with DH about any of this.

DH is going to send an email to BM and copy the Parent Coordinator, just to make sure we get everything on the record. But is there anything else that can really be done? This just seems like a pretty blatant (potentially dangerous) boundary violation.

[anxiousmom]

Maybe someone with more expertise than I have will say differently, but I'm not sure you can do anything short of going back to court and filing a temp restraining order to say she's in breach of your agreement and have a judge force her to comply. Obviously that sounds like major overkill for this particular situation, so I agree the only thing to be done, reasonably, is to document document document and save for later. Sorry you're dealing with this!

[Stepping lightly]

Hi ACC,

Looks like she is trying to create chaos.  Were these medical?  If there was no urgency to these appointments, they were inconvenient to all involved besides BM, they  should be canceled.  I would ask the PC to ensure parents are only scheduling non-urgent things on their own time, or only with the approval of the other parent.  It always makes me nuts when BM schedules things on our time, that we have to jump through hoops to make happen.  There is no respect for boundaries around work time/schedules. 

[hhaw]

What kinds of appointments were they?

Mental health?  Dental?  Medical?

I'd certainly forward the details to the Parent Coordinator, and document with the school, sending copies to BioMom. 

If the boys have missed many regular dental check ups, I'd put the oldest son's name on a TO BE CALLED WHEN AN AFTERNOON APPOINTMENT OPENS UP list, and get the younger son in when you schedule it on your time, or she schedules it in on her own time.  '

The kid needs to graduate.,

[Associate of Daniel]

If the school is aware of the parenting schedule and who picks up the children on which days, the school should not allow BM to take the children out of fhe school during your time without your permission. They'd have every right to call the police.

However, you need to consider if that is the best option for the children. At their age and with ds17 in his upcoming shool graduation concerns, it's probably best to let BM take them.

Perhaps you could have a word with the teachers. Explain the situation and ask them to give a little extra help and consideration to your children in this case.

Pds, in general, cause so much chaos and so much mess for others to clean up. And I think some of the time they don't realise it.

AOD

[Magnolia34]

The appointments were for general orthodontic check ups (DSD has already gotten her braces off and it was her last follow up). DSS lived with BM for 8 months last year with little to no contact with us (long story, BM was trying to get support) and in that whole time she never took him once. DH paid for all of the orthodontics because trying to get her to contribute was pointless. So no, the appointments were not urgent.

I think what spurred this on is that a few weeks ago DSS9 became very upset one night while he was reading in bed. He said his vision kept getting blurry and he couldn't see. This was a Saturday night so the first we could get him in was a Monday and he was at his mom's. One of the older kids must have texted her about it (freaking cell phones) and she sent a huge email about to DH letting him know that she was scheduling all of these doctor's appointments, DSS9 included.

Stepping Lightly, I think you're dead on with the Chaos theory. And no, I'm sure it's not a conscious thought for her. Her life is so chaotic I don't think it registers. I'm sure we're not the only ones who experience this but BM does NOTHING for months. No haircuts, no homework gets done at her house, etc. I don't know if these are "low" times or what. But it's like overnight something clicks and she manically starts scheduling everything she can think of and starting all sorts of drama.

The kids had been doing SO well since the holidays but came back Sunday and seemed really unsettled. So we're not sure what happened over there but sort of saw this coming.

DH didn't even have a chance to email the PC today because BM sent the LONGEST email you can imagine. He's really busy and skimmed it so I have no idea what it said. I would assume she's accusing DH of withholding medical care and not communicating.

Associate of Daniel, we're super tempted to address this with the school but I think you're right. I think the resulting drama will just make everything worst for the kids.

I guess I just have this nagging feeling that this is a line you can't uncross. Up until now she's been pretty good about physical boundaries. She'll yell and scream and even threw a cell phone at DH in parent coordination but she's never shown up at our house, she won't acknowledge us at school events. She's threatened to pick up the kids but has always stopped just short. There's no point in trying to predict the future but this feels like a step towards the possibility that she could take the kids in a bigger way.

[Stepping lightly]

It's interesting, sometimes I think they want you to think they'll cross the line, but they know better.  There are certain things that they know will just totally screw them if they do it, but hovering on top of the line....they do that well.  I don't know how many times DH and I have looked at each other and said, "do you think she'll do it?  She knows better....but do you think she'll still do it?"

I often think of it as BM has no control over what happens in our house, so she has to design ways to cause havoc/get our attention.  Throwing "required" appts or activities on the calendar that kids don't want to go to and conflict with work schedules .....great way to do it. They know everyone will be upset and trying to juggle what to do next.  I envision it as an octopus tentacle reaching it's way through our door undetected....causing chaos... then quietly retreating as if never there. 

Unfortunately for us, even if the kids don't want to go, they are scared to death NOT to go.  BM makes them pay dearly, and there isn't much we can do about that part of it.

[athene1399]

SO's uBPDxw does this frequently in spurts. Makes an "important" last minute appointment and says she'll take SD, then can't the day of. It's usually either for the ortho or a minor medical problem we already addressed with the primary that uBPDxw didn't like the answer so wants to see for herself. I don't know if she does it to throw us of, because we then try to get out of work to take SD, or if she likes the control of making the appointment but can't plan far enough in advance to be able to take SD there.

Anyway...Why is BM saying she'll take DSS if the appointment is cancelled? or is she pretending she didn't see the text? Maybe remind her it's in violation of the agreement for her to do this. Like: "I appreciate you trying to help out with the kids but per the agreement x needs to be done..." and re-explain it to her that way, but in a way that makes it feel like you appreciate her effort to help out. At least that works with SO's uBPDxw. We have to lead with an emotion showing we respect/understand her feelings then say what we have to. If we just stick to the facts ("per the agreement you souldn't do this...") she would flip $h!t. IME it helps to lead with "I'm sorry that didn't work out...", "I appreciate you trying....", "I know it must be hard on you but...", "Would it help if..." stuff like that. We have to make it sound like we're doing her a favor and appreciate all she does. **barf***

[Stepping lightly]

Sometimes when they threaten to cross the boundary, it's best to just sort of wait and see if they do.  If they do, you follow up with the documentation of the communication that the appointment was cancelled, and the fact that she still took a child out of school during a time point that would impact their grades for something that was not urgent. It gives you an opportunity to go to the PC and, if not already in place, request that they put in place rules around making appointments during the other parents time and against taking kids out of school during the other parents time.  It's almost like you have to let the chaos happen, then regroup and ask the PC to prevent it in the future. 

I did have to giggle at Athene's comment in trying to validate BM, it brought back memories.  We used to try to do that, at the advice of all of the professionals.  If we sent any of those statements, like "I appreciate you trying", the reply would be, "If you really appreciated it, you would stop and just give me custody.  Stop making life harder on me and the children and just acknowledge you are an incapable parent".  It was like clockwork.  Everything was, "you suck", "give me custody".   And she claims DH was the one that didn't want to co-parent!

[Magnolia34]

Athene1399 the appointment was scheduled for an hour after the office opened, so DH cancelled as soon as someone would answer the phone and I guess she brought him in right after that and they still had the appointment open.

I completely agree with your approach to responding to her. However, there is NO amount of kindness or gratitude that will deescalate her. DH always says "If I gave her a check for a million dollars she'd go into a rage because of the taxes." and it's true. Although DH DOES respond (and we used your "I appreciate you... etc" which was a GREAT line, thank you!) in these ways it only sets her off more. She's a fight-picker and if you don't take the bait she goes into a rage.

DH had (what he thought was) a really heartfelt conversation with DSS17 the night we found out about all of this. I eavesdropped on a minute of it and everyone was calm and respectful. They talked about boundaries and the fact that DSS was probably manipulating some and playing BM and DH against each other. DH came back upstairs and said he felt really good about it. Well. BM emailed the parent coordinator yesterday before DH could and not only gave her WAY more information than DH had planned to (she basically admitted to triangulating communication with DSS) but also accused DH of "terrorizing" DSS in their conversation later. DSS apparently texted BM that night and told her everything (embellishing quite a bit). It's really disheartening because he had been doing really well. I mentioned earlier that he lived with his mom for about 8 months last year and we had almost zero contact with him. There were many false accusations of abuse, etc. and she tried to use that for child support. The PC finally got him back to the normal custody schedule (by threatening BM with contempt of court) and he has been LOVELY ever since. Even last night... after everything he told BM he came in and hugged his dad and told him goodnight. I know he's 17 and I know he's just playing into his mom's disorder but it's frustrating to feel like you're making progress and then take ten steps back.

Anyway. I think DH's response is going to be "Gee, our conversation seemed pretty benign and constructive. I'm sorry to hear that he felt terrorized, Maybe we should schedule an emergency appointment with his therapist, or we can all go in and meet with the PC??" I think that will put an end to it because she wants NOTHING to do with therapy.

Thank you all for your feedback. I think I'm MUCH more calm about all of this than I would have been a year ago when it was still pretty new. Progress, I guess!

[Penny Lane]

So sorry you're dealing with this! I think "please don't schedule appointments for my parenting time and if you think an appointment needs to be scheduled discuss it with me first" is a totally reasonable boundary. I think it's also totally fair to convey "I am not going to pull DSS17 out of school for any non-emergency reason so he can focus on graduation, and I hope you'll consider doing the same."

If it was our BM she would get really mad at rage at DH and probably pull them out of school one more time just to show she can, then she would stop. I also think the PC would consider those things very reasonable. But I don't know if what works for us would work for you.

On the other hand, I also think there's value in just letting her spin her wheels on this stuff. She'll "show you" for scheduling an emergency appointment on her time. Then it'll probably die down (or if it doesn't you can go to the PC at that point.)

On the bigger picture I get why you're anxious! I hate that it comes in cycles so you KNOW that what's coming is going to be terrible, but there's nothing really you can do about it other than put your head down and power through. It SUCKS.

I will say, I think we under-reacted when BM came to our house and we had to call the police. I wish we'd pursued a restraining order at that time and maybe some conversations about rewriting the parenting plan so that she isn't to come to our house. We were totally unprepared because we didn't think she'd actually do it. Just something to keep in mind if she keeps escalating.

I'm with you guys, too, every time DH has tried to show some understanding for BM she says things like "your statement rings hollow in light of the fact that you refuse to (do whatever insane thing she's asking for at the moment)." BIFF is our best friend - anything beyond that just gives her something to latch on to.

Good luck! This will be hard but you've gotten through bad spells before, you all will get through this one too.

[Magnolia34]

I think we screwed ourselves when DH scheduled DSS9's eye appointment last week on her time. I think I mentioned that he had a bit of a meltdown and was really upset that his vision kept getting blurry. In retrospect DH should have emailed BM, let her know, and hoped she made the effort to schedule an appointment. You just never know what part of her disorder she's in and whether she actually will. DH wanted DSS to get in as soon as possible so he made the appointment and offered to take DSS if BM couldn't. In ANY other situation this would seem totally normal and cooperative, but not in this one. So, that set the dominoes in motion and here we are.

If the PC does respond (she hasn't responded to the last 2 of BM's insane emails) I think DH may try to talk to her about a "Parallel Parenting" plan. I think she's pretty fundamentally opposed to anything but co-parenting but it's just getting so ridiculous. I'm hoping they'll maybe divide things up, BM takes medical appointments (unless something emergent comes up when they're with DH) and DH does dental, etc. That way they don't have to communicate or coordinate other than just sending whatever forms or aftercare is needed. BM isn't going to like this because she loves the fight but NO ONE has time for this. Now she's taking their "24 hour response rule" and lording it over DH if he doesn't continue arguing with her. He'll usually stop responding after the 2nd or 3rd 10 paragraph email and she runs to the PC saying he's violating the parenting agreement. Thankfully the PC seems to be getting tired of it. She's already threatened to fire them on 2 different occasions... I'll be surprised if that doesn't actually happen at some point this year.

[Stepping lightly]

It is frustrating when the kids go back and give BM a different version of a conversation or event.  We have that happen a lot, and we usually just let it go.  The problem is, the kids have to actually live with her, and they have to find a way to do that and survive it.  They are also kids that don't have the benefit of life experience and  healthy coping skills.  DSS has become pretty open with DH and I  in a lot of these situations, he will tell us "he's scared" of BM.  This helps A LOT because we can help him with ways to deal with certain situations.  I wonder, if at 17, you could take the tactic of talking to him like "Hm...seems like that appointment situation got a bit chaotic and I imagine that you were in a bit of a tough spot.   Is there anyway you would want to do that differently next time.  How can we help make it easier on you?".    He may say, "Just let mom take me out of school for the appt", in which case you can ask, "Ok, we can do that- how can we make sure it doesn't impact your grades?".  I think there is value in validating that he was stuck in a crummy no win situation, and you can show that you see that...and you are open to what "he" specifically needs. 

[hhaw]

I would put all responses to biomom in writing, regarding the request to set T appointments, and copy PC and T on it.

I also wouldn't use the word "terrorize" anywhere in the message.  I'd suggest it's in the best interest of ds17 to clear up and clarify any misunderstandings regarding conversations, the appointment, and how appointments are set, going forward, so the kids don't feel put in the middle.  I wouldn't assume ss17 SAID what biomom reported was said, for sure.   I would de escalate, sound calm, and reasonable.... invested in cooperation, and the best interest of the kiddos, always.   Maybe there's no problem... only a made up comment from biomom?  Not that you didn't come across that way step mom... you did.   I tend to keep things very short, re stating facts without emotion.... sometimes sounding very helpful, and eager to be helpful, copy and file.  Keep going. 

BioMom should make appointments for the kids on HER time, and Dad should make appointments if they fall on his time.  I believe the T, and the PC will agree with this.  I believe Biom should be informing dad IF there are urgent medical appointments required. 

I really hate it when the kids get jerked around in the PD struggle.  All we can do is  BE a safe place, no matter what.  Maybe the next T session is about letting him know dad's going to love him, always and forever, no matter what.   The kids will be grown soon.  Remember to speak about mb with compassion ALWAYS to the kids, so they don't feel defensive.  Remember not to repeat what the kids say, should they tell you what's going on in BioMom's home. 

Good luck,

[athene1399]

Acc, maybe the PC is staring to see why co-parenting is out of the question with BM since she's been sending crazy emails to her. DSS17 could be in a tight spot where he feels he needs to report back to BM and put a bad spin on whatever happens at dad's. Maybe he wants to get out of school so he's letting her do this as well. and even though the heartfelt conversation may not have worked as much as DH originally thought, he still heard what DH said and hopefully with think about some of it. It's hard at that age. SD gets really upset if she feels she is being accused of something and it's usually over a mundane topic where no one else would probably feel questioned or accused of anything. It's like she gets uncomfortable if anyone questions some of her beliefs/thoughts and then gets upset and defensive. We have to reiterate we aren't attacking her or trying to start an argument and don't mean to defend her. Maybe something similar happened and since DSS felt he was put "on the spot" about the triangulation/manipulation he felt it was an attack (no matter how nicely DH put it) so reported back to mom knowing she would sympathize and yell at DH? I'm guessing obviously. I just know teens can be tricky, and take things far more personally than they should IMO.

Maybe the best you can do is note somewhere that BM took DSS out of school for something not important when his grades are already suffering. Has DH voiced to BM that maybe she shouldn't do this? I'm sure that will open the flood gates, but if he can show the PC he communicated this to her it will show he's trying to co-parent. Could back up his case for parallel parenting, really showing how difficult BM is to work with over simple things. I think a lot of people just don't get it (the difficulty in dealing with PD exes) until they see it IME. 

SL,

If we sent any of those statements, like "I appreciate you trying", the reply would be, "If you really appreciated it, you would stop and just give me custody.  Stop making life harder on me and the children and just acknowledge you are an incapable parent".

Now that you mention it, BM used to say things like that when we were going through the court stuff but something recently changed ( at the time she was off her meds so maybe that is the difference). I will enjoy the break from her rages while it lasts.

[Magnolia34]

"Hm...seems like that appointment situation got a bit chaotic and I imagine that you were in a bit of a tough spot.   Is there anyway you would want to do that differently next time.  How can we help make it easier on you?"

Stepping Lightly, I'm fairly certain that IS how the conversation went and it still got twisted around. This has happened before with DSS17 and I think your'e right, I think he's just trying to cope with everything. DH made the point that the kids often get so little from their mom that when she does show an interest they are so happy they play into whatever is going on.

Athene 1399 DH did voice to BM that she was in violation of the parenting agreement and in true BPD fashion, she turned it around on him and smoke screened with everything he does wrong. That's where the "terrorizing" DSS17 came into play, I think. She had to drum up some offense of DH's that was worse than her taking the kid out of school. This morning the PC responded to the 2nd crazy email BM sent and basically said "I haven't read any of these because I do not parent coordinate via email. If you would like to schedule an appointment to come in please let me know." So, we'll see what happens. Like I said, I think her philosophy is pretty rooted in trying to foster cooperative co-parenting but SURELY she has seen by now that this just isn't working. Now, I know that even if they divvy up responsibilities she's going to find a way to be difficult. But honestly, the times they are communicating the least are typically when things are the most peaceful. Cross your fingers! I hate the thought of another pointless PC meeting but I think the more exposure the PC has to her manic episodes the better off we'll be if we end up in court. Two PC meetings ago BM threw her phone at DH (she said she was throwing it on the table) and the PC threatened to fire them.

[Stepping lightly]

The PC doesn't parent coordinate via email?  Seriously?  I am SO anti-PC after our experience, so maybe this is a jaded view, but that seems pretty unreasonable.  I don't think she should expect that you will schedule a meeting for every discussion that needs her input.  She should just lay down the law in email, BM schedules things only on BM's time, DH schedules only on DH's time.  From my experience, these exchanges are really where the PC is needed, to step in and stop the chaos.   She can pick up the phone and call each parent if she needs more info.  Otherwise, these things spiral out of control and affect the kids directly.   Our PC had to end the face to face meetings with both parents because BM lost her mind in a rage and she consistently abused DH during the meetings. 

[Magnolia34]

Stepping Lightly, I have mixed feelings about our PC. On one hand... she's been able to hold BM accountable WAY more than attorneys or judges ever did. However, I do feel like she lets BM get away with A LOT. She's threatened to fire them on multiple occasions because of BM's meltdowns. She frequently has to ask BM to stop screaming because there are other clients in the building, BM threw a phone across the room (AT DH but she claimed she dropped it  ). DH said the last time they had a meeting BM kept interrupting the PC and was so rude that the PC would make a point of closing her eyes and slowly folding her hands together as if to say "I'll wait until you're finished interrupting me and then I'll try again." I understand that PC's have to remain neutral but it still doesn't seem like enough. Someone in another thread somewhere said once that it NEVER seems fair because the courts and other professionals just can't do anything with PD's. The system isn't set up to deal with them and they know it, and take advantage. 

I actually don't mind that she wouldn't address anything via email. If we're going to be paying her for her time, I'd rather they get a face-to-face meeting and BM can act out, like she always does, and if we end up back in court there's a record of BM's behavior. DH said "at least I can get that for my $100.00"

When BM was in the middle of a full blown alienation campaign against DH a few years ago I believe the PC saw exactly what was happening and handled it well. She spent a little time with all of the kids, met with DH and BM, then everyone together. Called BM out for "triangulating" communication with DSS and causing problems. She eventually had to threaten BM with contempt of court (DSS had been staying with her for 8 months against the custody order and BM refused to make him come back) and DSS eventually went back into the 50/50 time sharing agreement.

My chief complaint is that she lets everything waffle around for SO long before putting her foot down. DH has figured out that until he says "BM is in direct violation of XYZ... are you able to help us or do we need to get attorneys involved again?" The PC won't really address much. I don't know if it's because of the PD or because she gets to keep billing as long as they're arguing? Who knows.

I

[Stepping lightly]

I think PCs have to let the PD get away with a lot, there is no way they can make them 100% accountable.  There just aren't enough hours in the day.  There was a similar incident with BM at the PCs office, screaming so all of the other therapist offices could hear her..then she stormed out and slammed the door.   Our PC was more than $100/hour, and DH paid the brunt of it....so BM ran up the bills quite skillfully.  There was also supposed to be a point where the PC charged differently if she saw one parent was burning more of her time...she never did that even though BM emailed her incessantly.   

We found out that BM started dragging the kids in to meet with the PC, so they could tell the stories she concocted.  That's was really makes me angry, the PC wasn't supposed to have anything to do directly with the kids, she was supposed to manage the parental conflict only, but she was meeting with them as if she was their therapist (which is against the PC license).  She also used her own judgement to "diagnose BM", against the PC licensing, and use that "diagnosis" to justify throwing DH under the bus to save BM in court. 

Sorry- I can vent about our PC all day, she really screwed over my step kids with her inability to do her job.