How can you decide whether a PD is responsible for their actions?

[countrygirl]

Hi,

My title was too long for the subject line:  "How can you decide whether a PD is responsible for their actions, or whether they are too mentally ill to be held responsible?" 

I ponder this because, over the years, various people have said that my NPD mother was mentally ill, and others have said that a NPD friend with whom I ended a friendship could not be held accountable for her treatment of me because she had mental problems.  I don't want to be unsympathetic to my mother or to this friend, but it always seemed to me that they were choosing how to behave.  I certainly saw both of them behave well when there was something in it for them.  Thoughts on this topic?  Also, when people say this to me I always feel guilty for holding them accountable for their behavior.

[Absent Minded Artist]

This is a good question, but for me it comes down to taking responsibility and ownership over one's behavior. I have Bipolar Disorder and it is not an excuse to behave poorly or treat other people like crap. In the long run does it matter if it's mental illness or not?

[Pepin]

For me, I would want to know if the abuser was getting help for their mental instability.  If they are then I might be more sympathetic.  But continuing to abuse from a place of abuse is no excuse regardless of mental state.  There are consequences to both sides, I think.  If someone has mental problems then they are responsible for how they DEAL with that -- and that means accepting that not everyone will be accepting of them.  That is for them to own and no one else.  We all get to decide who is allowed in our lives, blood or not, based on behavior.   

[coyote]

For me it is more about the behavior than the cause of the behavior. Mental illness, choice, whatever. If they cannot respect my boundaries I limit contact since I have a moral code that does not allow me to subject myself to abuse.

[countrygirl]

Thank you for your replies!

Absent Minded Artist, In an effort to understand my friend, I read various blogs by people who were Bipolar, and they also said that they held themselves accountable for their actions.  My friend had received a Bipolar diagnosis several times, but would not accept it.  For years, I tried to deal with her, but once I finally accepted that she would not get help, I had to move on.  I felt sad and guilty, but I couldn't take the abuse.  I don't even necessarily think that this part of her behavior had to do with being Bipolar, but I know she would have felt better if she had received treatment and then those around her would have felt better too.  It is not an easy diagnosis to receive, I know, but I have seen the lives of two people turn around when they received treatment.  When I described this friend to one of them, she said, "I can't understand not wanting to be well." 

Pepin, both people about whom I posted refused to receive treatment.  As I just wrote to Absent Minded Artist, I could no longer take their behavior, after many years of tolerance.

Coyote, I wish I had been more like you during these relationships:  Insisting that my boundaries be respected.  Instead, I suffered through years of abuse, only to have some people--as I said in my initial post on this thread--say that I should be accepting of the behavior because the people were mentally ill.  I think that yours is the correct approach, and one which I will also use from now on.   

[practical]

Like you saw with your M and friend, my parents could control their behavior if they wanted to, they could be positively charming and sweet if it was in their interest.

For me it boiled down to: Is their behavior healthy for me? The answer was a sad but clear No, and therefore I had to draw the consequences. I couldn't control their behavior towards me, but I can control how I behave as a consequence of their behavior. So I decided to take care of myself, I lowered contact, used MC, added more boundaries, and instead of trying to fix their chaotic world I started to do more things for myself. Neither of my parents saw a need to get professional help, even in moments when they acknowledged they had problems, they thought it was my job to fix them and simply take their abuse.

You are responsible for your life, which includes protecting it. If your M or friend would hit you physically, nobody would tell you - I hope - "they cannot help it" and suggest that you should just deal. Using words to hit you is no different than a hand in the end, except it makes it so much harder to understand and acknowledge for ourselves what is happening and how it is harming us. This is a great article that really helped me understand this: https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=13369.0

By the way when somebody says "they cannot help it" it means for me they are to lazy to think about what I said, to scared or lazy to try and slip into my shoes for a moment. They don't want to hear about what I have to say and are trying to shut the topic down with a pat answer.

Also, while you might feel compassion for your M or your friend, it doesn't mean you have to endure their abuse, be available for it. You aren't a punching bag in a gym, you are a human being with feelings and your own needs, like being safe and loved. Yes, they need help, but the help they need neither you or I can give as we aren't trained professionals.

[Spygirl]

I struggled wi4h this too. I had alot of guilt for leaving my H. He would cry, beg forgivness.

It took a therapist, this forum, and alot of time away from him to see the truth. He was mean only to ME, in private, or when away form people he knew. It was 100% controllable. He knew he was doing it.

On the rare occasion he would lash out at a stranger when we were in public, it wasnhorrifying to watch. I could not make the connection that it was my regular life i was winessing for a long time.

Imo, you have no need to be guilty.

[countrygirl]

Thank you for your replies, practical and Spygirl,

practical, you make a really good point about how no one would tell me to just take it if the PDS in my life were physically hitting me, instead of "just" verbally abusing me.  My mother did physically attack me once, and this PD friend broke things in my house, but in general, they were not physically abusive.  Thank you for the link;  I look forward to reading the article.

You make a very good point that even though these people need help, it is professional help which they need.  Allowing ourselves to be their punching bags does not help them.

Spygirl, what you said about witnessing your husband lashing out  at a stranger and realizing that this was what you endured on a regular basis was so moving.  And you know, it made me realize that when my friend would last out at strangers I would also be horrified, but never stopped to think that this was how she often treated me.   

As I think about what you both wrote--and I so appreciate your posts--I ask myself why did I allow this treatment to continue?  And when people told me that these people couldn't help themselves because of their mental issues, why didn't I just tell those people off?  As I said, I witnessed both of these PDs be absolutely charming in public (at those times when THEY weren't lashing out), so I know that both of them were capable of behaving very well when there was something in it for them.  It wasn't as if they were in the midst of psychotic breaks when they were with me; they had just as much control at those times as they did at others, but they already "had" me, so felt free to let it fly.

Thank you to everyone who replied.  You have helped me put this issue to rest.  PDS are responsible and we are responsible for knowing when to draw boundaries. 

[Hattie]

In DBT, they teach 4 basic assumptions for interpersonal effectiveness, which I think are helpful in considering this issue:

1) We need to interpret things in the most benign way possible,
2) There is no one or any absolute truth,
3) Everyone is doing the best they can in this moment, and
4) Everyone needs to try harder.

I love these so much I printed them out and stuck them on my fridge. I particularly like the last two;  the way they express the balance between acceptance and change.

So basically, whilst PDs may have reasons for acting the way they do, they are still accountable. They, like everyone else, can do better. It is reasonable for us to expect them to do better.

Coyote has a good point that in a sense it doesn't matter why the behave as they do; what does matter is how we respond. That being said, I find I am able to maintain stronger boundaries if I keep these assumptions in mind. If i forget them, and lose the non-judgmental mindset, then i can feel guilty about setting  boundaries.
Whereas if i hold true to these assumptions, i feel good about myself and know that my actions are fuelled by courageous compassion.

[StayWithMe]

I take care of myself first.  I wasn't given second chances when I scewed up before.  And also, when someone is out to screw, they are already one or more steps ahead of you. 

Do you really want to trust someone who so easily forgets. 

And finding out whether they are getting professional help for what ever????  Oh dear, mind your own business and even if they did tell you......... they may realise where you want to go with that info and say what you want to hear.

[countrygirl]

Thank you for your replies, Hattie and StayWithMe,

One reason I posted this query about whether PDS are responsible for their actions, even when they have mental issues, is because one of my longtime friends refused treatment for Bipolar One.  For years, I got calls in the middle of the night when she was having an episode, and was in constant contact with her when she was hospitalized, so she made it all my business.   Each time, she would tell me her diagnosis, which never varied, Bipolar One.  Then, when she was released, she would refuse to take medication.  This went on for twenty years.  It would take too long to describe what happened after her last hospitalization, but suffice it to say that it was apparent that she would never take the correct meds.  In fact, after her first hospitalization, she instead found a personal care physician who would give her whatever she wanted, and that was an antidepressant, which is counter indicated for Bipolar One, because given unilaterally it often causes long episodes of hypomania, which is what happened with her.

But, despite everything, including having the police called by people when she had extreme anger meltdowns, she would not receive help.   

Finally, I just couldn't take anymore, because she was so abusive to me, over a period of many, many years.   My husband couldn't take having her around either, because she created so much tension on weekends, when we both needed to relax and unwind.  My BFF dreaded seeing her.  I felt so bad for having to withdraw that I spoke to a therapist, who told me that if I wouldn't withdraw to help myself that I should do so for the sake of my husband and friends, and even for my animals.  And she said that I wasn't helping my friend, because she clearly felt that things would continue as they were, even if she wasn't treated.  The therapist said that sometimes people have to see what their behavior is causing before they get help.   

I feel very bad for my friend.  Her life would be so much better if she would get help.  But she would not.  If her disease were treated, she would have as much chance for a happy life as any of us do.     

[StayWithMe]

You're doing way too much for someone who is just a friend.  I'm not sure I would put with this with a family member these days.  Either I would freeze them out or keep them on a leash ie See them only one on one.

Talking about someone's mental health is very tricky.  I don't have a high opinion of therapists ... guess I've had some bad ones.  Plus, I find it interesting that other people will tell you you need one.  ...... when in fact they could use one as well.  And if they refust to take their medication and YOU know that, what a mess.

Don't lose your husband and your BFF over this woman ...... you could end up wit another.

[countrygirl]

Hi Staywithme,

Thank you, as always, for the good advice.

I did decide that I had to withdraw from this friend.  It was painful for me to do so, but I had to.  All she really wanted from the friendship was a place to spend weekends, and those weekends became a horror show for us.  We constantly walked on eggshells, trying not to do or say anything that would spark a meltdown.  I also had to watch her around my animals.  Some of the actions I could describe were truly scary. 

[clara]

Actions have consequences, and I think the issue depends on whether or not the person doing the acting sees the real consequences of those actions.  People with actual brain chemistry abnormalities may not be able to do this since they're interpreting reality from a perspective different from ours.  But that doesn't mean their issues should become ours.  As others above have said, there's a point where you just need to give up trying to understand them and simply accept that's the way they are. The choice of whether or not to keep them in your life then becomes yours. 

I know the entire point of this forum is to try to understand the PD, but the understanding is primarily meant to help us in dealing with the PDs in our life. In my interactions with PDs, they absolutely seem to know what they're doing, and don't care.  They accept their behavior as who they are and throw all expectations of accommodation onto you.  The rare ones who are able to see the damage they do and recognize it as damage they caused may try to get help, but how they come to that realization while the majority don't is something I, as a non-PD, can't say.  But someone on this site once posted a link to an article that, to me, really gave a good explanation of why most PDs don't seek help and that explanation was because they think everyone is just like they are, that we're all lying and controlling and manipulating etc. so they spend their life trying to keep a step ahead of everyone else.  The damage they cause to others is simply them striking first.  Thus the incessant need for control.  If they didn't, then others would do it to them.  They don't have enough empathy to see situations from anyone else's point of view--something we can do--which is why we spend so much time and effort trying to deal with them, understand them. They, on the other hand, just don't worry about it!  (A generalization, I know, and I apologize for that).

[Starboard Song]

"Holding accountable" is backward looking: shall we punish someone for wrongdoing? Shall we expect them to make restitution for harm done? When answering these backward looking questions, as we do for legal liability and criminal courts, we often must decide whether people are culpable, or innocent like a child is innocent, by reason of true lack of control.

When we struggle with loved ones or acquaintances with a personality disorder, it is far more likely we are forward looking: shall I continue to engage with this person? Can I safely trust my heart to them again? What precautions and boundaries are necessary to make that possible?

When answering these forward looking questions, I doubt culpability is at all relevant. If a car were careening toward you on the sidewalk in a tourist city, you may fear that it is a terrorist, bent on attacking and killing you: morally culpable to be sure. Imagine someone by your side said, "don't worry, I can see that the driver is slumped unconscious over the wheel. He is having a medical emergency and is not trying to hurt you." Would this change your behavior at all? Would you not run? Not seek cover?

Or course the driver's condition is not relevant to your self-protection. A person predictably doing you harm is someone to reliably protect yourself from, just as you'd run and take cover from a car collision without regard for the driver's intent or moral culpability. When we take steps to protect ourselves from predictable mistreatment, we are not holding anyone accountable. We are not punishing them or declaring them responsible for their actions. Without regard for such considerations, we are meeting our obligations to ourselves. We may do so kindly. We may do so with love. But we must do so without fail.

If you don't get off that sidewalk, you'll be no good to yourself or those who love and rely upon you.

[Jade63]

In my interactions with PDs, they absolutely seem to know what they're doing, and don't care.  They accept their behavior as who they are and throw all expectations of accommodation onto you. 

I remember when I once told my M that she was too Needy. Her reply was: Yeah, so I'm needy, so what?
It never occurred to her how that affected anyone who had to deal with her. She never reflected on that. She simply expected others to deal with it. 
And her arrogance convinced her that she was worth it. 

Nope,
~Jade 

[countrygirl]

Hi clara, Starboard and jade63,

The consensus seems to be that ultimately it doesn't matter whether PDs are responsible or not, that we just "need to get off that sidewalk" when they careen toward us, to paraphrase Starboard.  This is what I came to see with my Bipolar One friend who refused treatment.  (I have to say that the careening car metaphor really works for her, because she was constantly getting speeding tickets in residential zones, and was always able to get out of paying them by hiring high-priced traffic lawyers.)  Have to say here that I know people with Bipolar One who have gotten treatment and are living productive lives, but she doesn't want to be one of them. 

And I agree with clara that we probably spend a lot more time wondering about the motivations and makeup of PDs, because of our empathy, than they spend worrying about us.  In fact, I agree with the writer of that article that often PDs seem to assume that we ARE like them, so they figure we're going to treat them the way they treat everyone.  You know, I was always amazed that my NPD friend did think we were alike.  It used to creep me out, really.  She went through a phase where she would say that we were "in the bubble," and would even say if something trivial happened to me, like a stubbed toe for example, that she should have known because she had a bruise on her foot.  During this period, I was trying to get away from her; the last place I wanted to be was "in the bubble" with her!

And jade63, I have seen that knowing-but-not-caring attitude of your M.  I find it jaw-dropping. 

[Swarley]

I understand that it's a disorder, a deeply ingrained mechanism and way of seeing the world that is probably a disordered response to early psychological trauma, shame, etc. I understand that the person is unlikely to change or seek real help.

But at some point, it's really for them to look inward. These are not stupid people and they could, if they chose to, see the repeating pattern of damaged relationships and ruined situations THEIR behavior has created.

Whether they choose to do that work or not,  it's not my job to endlessly tolerate poor treatment because they're "sick".

[countrygirl]

Hi Swarley,

I think you make some really good points.  For example,  my friend who won't accept her diagnosis does function in the world, and she knows that so many of her friendships have ended over the years because of her behavior.  About six months before I accepted that I had to withdraw from her because she refused to get help, another longtime friend had to withdraw from the relationship.  This person also told her that she needed to make changes, but instead of accepting that she tried to strong-arm the friend into resuming the relationship.  It did not work. 

When I started insisting upon some boundaries, she had a huge anger meltdown with me, but I stuck to my guns.  She erupted twice more, and that was it.  For years, I had tried to explain to her that she would lose friends if she didn't change.  But it was more important to her to behave exactly as she wanted to behave.

While discussing all of this with another friend, I kept hearing that I should not be angry at my friend, because she could not help herself.  But throughout our friendship, I had seen her behave in a very charming manner when she met new people, or when she wanted to behave well, for whatever reason. 

[StayWithMe]

But it was more important to her to behave exactly as she wanted to behave.

Too many people believe that anything less than "being yourself" is in authentic and game playing.