Why do you stay?

Started by inundated, March 03, 2019, 10:42:03 AM

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inundated

Why do you stay with your PD significant other?

I'm feeling very, very torn right now. I've been fighting to make it work while being Out of the FOG for a few years now. Being aware of the situation has helped a lot, but it's not enough. The longer my marriage goes on, the more I can predict how h will behave. Nothing changes. He never changes despite my trying to show him how his behavior affects me and the kids. I've even tried letting him walk all over me and not say anything to him about his behavior and that didn't help anything either. I figured if I just let him be who he truly is, then he will actually love and appreciate me more--now I realized I was being naive.

In this moment, I am tired of being naive. I am tired of my fake marriage with fake feelings. I am so tired of being treated like a puppet and being disciplined like a child when I don't meet his expectations. I am tired of these things and hundreds of others, but I still can't leave. For me, I think the biggest factor to stay is not getting to be with my kids everyday if we share custody. I'm starting to wonder if I am being selfish if that is the only thing holding me back. Am I sacrificing my kids mental stability just so they won't have a private environment with h if we were to divorce or am I protecting their mental stability by not letting them have a private environment with h if we stay together. This question has been killing me and led me to my general question. Why do we stay--at what point is enough, enough?

capybara

Hi inundated,

It sounds really hard! I have also thought of leaving and struggled with the idea of shared custody... as well as with the question of whether DH would behave in a way that undermines my relationships with my children. (And what advantage my uPD mom might take of the situation.) These are very tough decisions and we do have to consider our childrens' well-being as well as our own!

That being said, DH and I each initiated a brief separation last year but quickly reconciled both times. I do think those near-separations and my honesty about my feelings helped motivate him to listen to me be open to change. Also, my DH is a very high-functioning uBPD, which may not be your case.

Some considerations for me: (1) the big one is that my DH is listening to me as much as he can, and working on it. I am so sorry that is not the case for you; (2) trying to wait for at least 2 of my kids to reach their teens, so they have more support from their friends and also more say in any custody decisions (not based on anything I researched, just my feelings); (3) my feelings after prayer on it - not that I believe that divorce is always wrong, not at all; (4) my own therapist's advice that I should wait and keep trying for now;  (5) concern about how high-conflict a divorce might be; (6) love and concern for DH as well as the kids; and (7) feeling that if I do ask for a separation, I want to do several things to prepare first, including setting some money aside and a consultation with a family lawyer.

Pepin

This is difficult to answer and there are so many reasons.  I don't classify my DH as a PD but he is a GC and an enabler and answers to PDmil.  There actually was a time years ago in my marriage where I did want to exit.  I had had enough of DH and his behavior.  He seemed out of control.  Our kids were rather young at the time and I realized that if I left the marriage, they would be forced to see more of PDmil.  PDmil is the source of all the conflict we have had in our marriage.  There is no way I could allow my children to be exposed to more of her by removing myself.  I know that DH would include her more in his life if I left.  *sigh* 

Both my kids are teens now and they understand PDmil very well, figuring it out on their own.  They are not keen on their father and the way he behaves with his mother.  They have been hurt by having their father pulled away by PDmil and her need for attention.  There has been tension as a result of this in our family...and I am certain that my teens will relocate far away for college to get away from this horrible dynamic.

For me, I know staying is the right thing but it definitely stings a lot.  I am sad for my children and I am sad for my marriage.  Allowing DH to move us closer to PDmil has been my biggest regret.  She changed the man I married.  When she is gone I hope the man I married can return to who he was.  I don't know what the relationship with my children will be like but I do know that my children have learned a valuable lesson to stay away from people like PDmil and to be very careful when considering future spouses and actually anyone that seeks friendship.  At least they will have me to support them if anything happens....whereas for myself I have had literally no one. 

Blackbird11

When I first found this site, my reason for staying was the hope that uPDh could possibly change. I now realize that will never happen. Things have gotten more subdued and I guess "better" since I most recently threatened to leave in the fall/early winter, but I just can't imagine spending my life being talked at all the time and essentially ignored. So now i stay because I want to get my finances in order and ensure I have a plan A and plan B in place. I am also building up some mental toughness so I can resist the inevitable hoovering (and whatever it evolves into after that). I think we all know what is best for our kids deep down so it's best to listen to your heart there. Although I will say my parents got divorced and it really was for the best - so i am grateful that I had that experience to know that my kid will survive it and be ok. *However I also get sad about having to split custody. But imagine making the most of the time we have with them and then...getting time to ourselves?!

notrightinthehead

Such a hard question which I have asked myself many times.  In the earlier years I was a financial prisoner. Then this changed and by that time the kids were adults, so no need to worry about custody anymore. It must have been habit or addiction by that time. I used the tools from the TOOLBOX and honestly did not like him anymore, so the marriage was dead, but still I stayed, cooked for him,  washed his clothes, did the housework. In the end, I had become so useless as supply for him - no fights, no talks, no laughter, no love, no outings together - that eventually he found himself a replacement.  Setting me free. It took him 3 months to find his now girlfriend and I am told that they are very happy. The perfect couple on the outside. Just as we were.

There is the issue of Co-dependency in my case, but only partially. I would describe myself more as a protesting colluder as described in the book 'Stop caretaking the borderline and narcissist'. In the end, I found in my husband somebody who treated my like my mother had treated me. It was a type of love I was used to. Toxic, yes, but also sadly familiar.
I can't hate my way into loving myself.

GentleSoul

Mmmm, interesting question. 

I choose to stay married to my PD and alcoholic husband as I know I need to work on my own co-dependency issues stemming back to growing up in an alcoholic home.  I had no boundaries or concept of self care.  I have been learning and practising these assets with my hubby.  I think if I had left my hubby without working on myself, it is very likely I would have been attracted to another PD and/or alcoholic partner. I recognise a big need in myself to change.

I have seen this pattern in my mum and my sister.  A succession of relationships with alcoholics.  I do not want to do that.

I am currently re-reading the Co-dependency bible - Co-dependent No More by Melody Beattie.  I am convinced when she was writing this book she was following me around, watching me and taking notes!  haha. It is uncanny.  Me to a tea.


Blackbird11

I have been thinking about this thread the past two days. I wrote my initial response very quickly and didn't want to make light of the idea of custody. It's hard to think about. I change my mind multiple times a day, really. My heart goes out to all of you. These are not easy decisons for any of us. Also - GentleSoul, what you write about needing to work on yourself before choosing whether or not to go...I so agree with that. I also feel that I would 100% attract another PD or alcoholic if I don't keep doing this work and understanding how I got here.

M103s

I stayed for 10 years because I hoped that one day he would see that his behaviour was the cause of many problems in our family. Once he realized this, he would try to change and this would prove to me that I am worthy of being loved for who I am. I held on to this hope far beyond the point of it being rational. Every bit of evidence pointed in the direction of him not wanting to see, however hard I tried to be worthy, however loud I screamed and begged, however hard I tried not to be hurt and not to care.
I left because I reached the point that I hated myself so much that I wanted to disappear completely. I didn't want te kill myself, because that felt like too much of a grandiose, attention-seeking gesture and memories of me would still be left. I literally wanted to vanish, to be erased from existence.
I left a month ago and I succeed in doing what needs to be done. I take care of the kids, I go to work, I listen to other peoples problems, I give advice, I support and motivate when needed, but I still feel worthless and unloveable. I feel like my life is over.
Don't wait too long.

GentleSoul

Quote from: M103s on March 08, 2019, 07:01:18 AM
I stayed for 10 years because I hoped that one day he would see that his behaviour was the cause of many problems in our family. Once he realized this, he would try to change and this would prove to me that I am worthy of being loved for who I am. I held on to this hope far beyond the point of it being rational. Every bit of evidence pointed in the direction of him not wanting to see, however hard I tried to be worthy, however loud I screamed and begged, however hard I tried not to be hurt and not to care.
I left because I reached the point that I hated myself so much that I wanted to disappear completely. I didn't want te kill myself, because that felt like too much of a grandiose, attention-seeking gesture and memories of me would still be left. I literally wanted to vanish, to be erased from existence.
I left a month ago and I succeed in doing what needs to be done. I take care of the kids, I go to work, I listen to other peoples problems, I give advice, I support and motivate when needed, but I still feel worthless and unloveable. I feel like my life is over.
Don't wait too long.

So very sorry to read your share, M103s.  Have you considered speaking to your doctor about how very low you feel?  Sending kindness and strength to you.

Liftedfog

Before my kids were born I stayed to avoid embarrassment and shame.  High school sweethearts, dated ten years before we were married.   I saw flags from day one and kept it from everyone.  Everyone thought we had a perfect marrage.  I was ashamed of everyone knowing we had issues.   After kids were born, yes I went ahead and had kids in a dysfunctional marriage, I stayed because I didn't want my children to come from a broken home.   Little did I know that the home was already broken.  I'm sorry for your pain.  It's a really gut wrenching, painful decision.

GentleSoul

Quote from: Blackbird11 on March 07, 2019, 04:17:51 PM

GentleSoul, what you write about needing to work on yourself before choosing whether or not to go...I so agree with that. I also feel that I would 100% attract another PD or alcoholic if I don't keep doing this work and understanding how I got here.


Hi Blackbird, I used to be attracted like a magnet to PD's, alcoholics, narcs, needy men looking for someone to look after them, etc.  It was a two way magnet.  I was pulled towards them and they were pulled towards me.  We FIT!  Our respective dysfunction fitted together like a jigsaw puzzle.  Perfect. 

As time is going on and I am working on myself, it has gradually become like when you have two magnets and you turn one around.  The magnetic force pushes away from the other one.

This is getting stronger and stronger in me.  I am repelled rather than attracted.  I am quietly thrilled to bits with this.

It also applies to all people not just prospective partners.  I notice it with female friends. The friends I attract and am attracted to now are so very different than in the past.  Strong, balanced, women. Equals.  Not a needy one looking for someone who needs to be needed. In other words as sick as each other!

It is working.  The change of my ingrained childhood behaviours!



Crushed_Dad

The kids and finances. If I'm there she'll focus her divisive, destructive tendencies on me. If I'm there we'll have more money so the kids can do and experience things as well as having nice belongings and perhaps even some financial awareness in the future.

If I'm gone I'll see them once a week if I'm lucky. If I'm gone I'll be living in my father's spare room for the next 20 years, the kids will have no holidays and the quality of the things they have will drop ad the chances of doing things will also drop.

11JB68

  :yeahthat:
But for me not so much the things...
Ds21 is in college. We committed to helping him pay for it. Loans in my name. If I leave I may endup solely responsible for those, plus have to pay spousal support as I make more than uPDh.,I can't see a way to make that work.

not broken

If verbal and emotional abuse hadn't changed, I would have left.  It was when I started seeing the affects to my kids and reading about that, that started to open my eyes to what was really happening.  I thought if he would stop, it would be better, but that's not the case either. After living for so long (almost two decades) regulating what I say, what I do, etc based on his mood or what he might say, it is hard to know what I actually want.  For me.  Not for him. 

How do you figure that out? I feel like I'm stuck in a fun house of mirrors- and now that he wants to be supportive and loving, listen to me, include me in finances, etc - I have so many situations that remind me of his outbursts or belittling, name calling, etc. and when I feel badly about something and explain what it was like before and how this is the opposite- he takes it like I am blaming him for all of my issues.  Then the anger at myself for letting it happen and the things, experiences, etc that I have lost out on because of the choices I made to hide or deny what was happening.  It's the guilt, which is a learned behavior from my dad, and the wanting to please from my step-dad.

Is it rebuilding trust?  How do you ever choose to roll the dice again? Because isn't that what we do when we  stay?  Won't we always wonder or be hyper vigilant about the behaviors coming back?  How can we let our guard down long enough to really let them in again-to love a truly happy life, that we want or believe is happy?  Don't we deserve that?  I wish I had better advice for you, all I know it is a painful existence, and I don't think it's supposed to be this way. 

(I have a father that is what I believe covert npd, and a step father who was physically abusive with my mom- although I never saw the violence, only the yelling and I was his golden step child and made him look good because I did well in HS sports- which was important to him.)

medmama

Quote from: Crushed_Dad on March 19, 2019, 03:39:10 AM
The kids and finances. If I'm there she'll focus her divisive, destructive tendencies on me. If I'm there we'll have more money so the kids can do and experience things as well as having nice belongings and perhaps even some financial awareness in the future.

If I'm gone I'll see them once a week if I'm lucky. If I'm gone I'll be living in my father's spare room for the next 20 years, the kids will have no holidays and the quality of the things they have will drop ad the chances of doing things will also drop.

I keep asking myself this question day in and out.  Over the last 4-5 years, I come back to this site once a year or so when I'm so defeated by my partner's suspected PD... I'm ashamed to say I've been aware of the red flags since very early on in our marriage.  I was hopeful that she would get better after we had a child.  Unfortunately she got worse.  Then it became a struggle to have a second child, and I convinced myself maybe completing our family would be the key to her happiness... sadly no.   Adding a dog?? No.  The only thing left is that we haven't owned our own home yet, and so I have resigned myself so much to staying in this relationship, that I have committed to buying a home with my partner.  I'm not naive enough to think it will miraculously change things and my partners behavior, but I am holding a little hope that life will become more tolerable.

For me, it was initially guilt.  We were together 6 years before we had our first child.  Since then, it absolutely comes down to the kids and finances, same as you, Crushed_Dad.  My partner chose to stay-at-home and care for our kids, who are both still very young. She's been out of the workforce for over 7 years already.

I have a complex situation, where we live far from both of our families. Her support is in a different country altogether, where it would be cheaper to live, but where I currently wouldn't be allowed to work. 

Staying where we are, but living separately and sharing custody will be extremely expensive.  It will mean my partner having to return to work, and while our youngest isn't even in school yet, would mean putting one in day care, the other in after or before school care as well, and likely both of us living in less than ideal rented living spaces.

I have stayed thinking I am protecting my kids. Our oldest is 7 though, and really struggling with anxiety and related behavior issues at home.  It's clear I haven't had the positive effect that I had hoped... this has been making me question more and more what good am I doing by staying, and would a 50/50 split be better for all of us? 

In my mind, I'm trying my best to stick out the young years for my kids, so they can have as much time with me — which is hopefully at least somewhat beneficial!? — and like someone else mentioned, so they have some understanding when it comes to determining custody.

If owning our own home and checking off some of those wish list items for my partner makes no difference, however... I'm not sure how many more years I can take.  There is very little love or warmth left to hold the two of us together.  I am bound by the kids, and she has outright said she is also stuck financially.

I wish I had a more hopeful story to share.   As I write it all out, it is sounding very bleak. 

I don't want to hijack the thread — but can I ask to those who stayed with similar reasoning, ie. for the kids, until they are "older"... was there an age you had in mind?  Our youngest is 2.. I can't even imagine leaving before he is my oldest's age of 7 (but 5 years sounds like an eternity).

Blackbird11

Medmama - I relate to your story so much. I have a baby, almost toddler, and each day I agonoize over how long to wait. I think I would like to wait until my kid can speak full sentences, and that's because while my uPDh is a good parent, I won't have control over who my kid spends time with without me. I would like the child to be able to communicate with me so I know things are ok. Although if my spouse crosses a line that is unacceptable before that point, I will leave at that moment. I think we all know what our breaking point would be. Luckily he has been mostly on good behavior, with occasional passive aggressive comments and attempts to get me to JADE. I am trying to get my things in order in the event he crosses the line, so I can go and not look back. Also - I am a child of divorce and I was 5 or 6 at the time. I lived primarily with uPDm - my dad has visitation and I actually spent more time with him as my mom worked a lot. I think I turned out OK and while he's not perfect either, I am grateful I had him to counter the messages that came from my M. I wish he would have gotten me therapy though - bc I did ultimately recreate the dynamic with my m in my marriage.

medmama

Thanks for sharing Blackbird11.  I hadn't thought of it that way, in terms of the kids ability to express or share their experiences with me when we aren't together.. but that is a good point to consider.

On a side note re: therapy — my partner and I agreed our daughter needs some help to learn how to better regulate her emotions and anxiety. She went to one counseling session, and made an executive decision that it was useless.  In part, she felt the counselor didn't connect well with our daughter, but also when asked who or what makes our daughter angry, she said that it was my partner. No one else.  Immediately defensive, and claiming that she is our daughter's 'safe space', she has decided the counseling will not be helpful and canceled any other sessions.   I would like a chance to take her to a session before we give up — although I've since decided we need a parent coach to help us, rather than counseling for our daughter.. primarily to help my partner see herself.  I wish that it would be possible — even though realistically I know it is highly unlikely that she will gain insight into herself.

GentleSoul

Quote from: medmama on March 24, 2019, 10:00:53 PM

I don't want to hijack the thread — but can I ask to those who stayed with similar reasoning, ie. for the kids, until they are "older"... was there an age you had in mind?  Our youngest is 2.. I can't even imagine leaving before he is my oldest's age of 7 (but 5 years sounds like an eternity).

I would like to answer your question from the experience I went through.  I was the child in a household with a mum and dad who sound similar as you describe your marriage.   

My parents parted when I was 12, my two siblings were 10 & 7 respectively.  We were very thankful and relieved when our parents split up.  Peace came to our home and lives for a while.  The fights, fear and horrible atmosphere left the house.  I can remember it feeling lighter, safer and happier. 

I would have much preferred them to separate years before they did.   

Us kids got some respite.  They later recommenced battle at each other, and by default at us kids by weaponizing us and the Access Visits.  But at least they weren't under the same roof.