uninviting my PD from a vacation that I invited her to go on

Sidney37 · April 07, 2019, 04:58:16 PM

So my undiagnosed PD mother who is also very anxious went back on her anxiety meds a few years ago. Between the anxiety meds, her making a new friend who she bosses around and my use of grey rock, things have been substantially better. Much of her behavior is rooted in her severe anxiety. Her main coping skill is to get me or my father to make decisions for her and then blame me or him if it didn't go exactly her way. Her other dysfunctional coping skill is when she doesn't want to do something or go somewhere, she picks at me or my father until we snap or blow up at her and then she blames our bad behavior

for cancelling the event. Even talking back to her is sometimes enough to be considered a blow up. That's all it takes for her to decide she can't do whatever she didn't want to do to begin with and then blame us for it. We were just so "mean" to her. She uses the blow up or the snap as an excuse to cancel the event. Over the years, it's been holiday dinners, vacations, short trips, etc. that have been cancelled or delayed due to her anxiety and then blamed on us. She did this in the days before my wedding, causing a huge fight, as well.

She stayed with my family (me, DH, 2 kids) for several weeks last fall with no issues whatsoever thanks to my Out of the FOG skills, her meds and my father not being here with her. The trip to visit us is far, so every visit is extended. She bullies my father constantly. He can't make any decisions for himself according to her. If she is in bully mode with him, she bullies me, too. He wasn't here in the fall, so no bullying. I thought she had changed due to the meds.

After this pleasant visit, I made, what I now see as a mistake, the decision to ask her and my father to go on a vacation with us that involved an airplane flight. She is terrified of flying but has gone on several flights over the past few years with church friends. She won't show her fear in front of them.

Now that she doesn't want to go on this trip and won't admit it to me, she is doing everything in her power to pick at me, insult me, insult my children, insult my in-laws, etc. in an attempt to get me to snap at her so she can tell herself and her church friends that it is all my fault she's not going on this exciting vacation with us because I was mean to her. So far, I am totally gray rocking her. I'm not jading. I'm avoiding conversations with her.

My questions are... 1. Is this coping mechanism of hers - picking at me until I snap and then blaming me for not doing something she didn't want to do to begin with, a typical PD behavior or just a bad coping skill for anxiety ? 2. Do I just tell her that I don't want her to go on this trip and have her flip out and not speak to me or my children for months or longer knowing that will risk my elderly father (who she bullies and makes all decisions for) not seeing or speaking to me or my children for months or longer as well? He's not in the best health, which is why I asked them to take this trip with us. He's excited about it. 3. How do I tell her that I don't want her on this trip without causing her to flip out? I'm guessing that I can't. I'm just so mad at myself for asking her to go. I should have known better!

Duck · April 07, 2019, 11:04:37 PM

I really relate to this. My dad is PD, but there are times I have seen him or talked to him as a way to have contact with my mom. Your dad sounds a lot like my mom.

I came to a breaking point one year when my parents and sister were flying out for Christmas. I made the controversial decision to uninvite my dad, even though I knew the cost of the ticket would be lost and the world would judge me to be the meanest daughter ever. I mean, it was Christmas! For me, it worked out ok - I kept the invite open for mom and sis and they actually decided to come without him. We had some good times without him!

Question 1-This is PD IMO. There are many anxious people in this world. In my experience, most of them try to explain themselves rather than make other people’s lives a misery. They might say, I’m so sorry, I am feeling anxious about X or I’m sorry for my behavior, I am dealing with high anxiety. This is especially true if they have been diagnosed and started taking meds. Anxious people often feel badly about how their problem affects other people and try to mitigate this.
Question 2- Only you can answer this, but it is doable. When I uninvited my dad, I didn’t know how it would fall out but I knew I had to do it for my mental health.
Question 3- She is probably going to freak out no matter what. However, maybe a good story or scenario can be devised to help her save face. Some kindly people (who were probably shocked by his sad story) fussed over my dad and checked on him while he was home alone for Christmas, and this helped with his ego.

Then, after I took that stand at Christmas, it helped me make other boundaries and create a bigger distinction between my relationship with my dad vs my relationship with my mom.

At some point in my life, I got a lot less patient regarding bad behavior. I became less willing to deal with insults, etc.

illogical · April 08, 2019, 06:24:00 AM

Hi Sidney37,

I'm familiar with that tactic of--- peck, peck, peck away at you until you go full-blown SNAP!

My NM could not take "No" for an answer, so she would do exactly what you described. Before I came Out of the FOG, I allowed her, on several occasions, to push my buttons until I freaked out and she could try to paint me as the bad person.

While you aren't in the best situation here, you do have several things going for you. You are Out of the FOG and realize what she is doing to you. So you are grey-rocking her and not JADEing. That's really great!

To answer your question about fallout, you are in a double bind, or "damned if you do, damned if you don't". If you don't disinvite her, she ruins your vacation. If you do, the likelihood is a big dose of The Silent Treatment, blaming and shaming you, her bullying your father into taking her side in all of this, and any other manipulative tactics she can muster to prove her "victimhood".

I agree with Duck-- this is PD behavior.

My humble advice to you is to do what is best for you and let the fallout begin. I would not take one more second of her insults. I would tell her as much-- "Mother, I'm not going to listen to any more of your insults. I'm hanging up the phone now." And I would hang up the phone.

Is it possible for you to postpone this vacation? If so, I would. Then you can come up with an excuse why none of you are going and she can't say it's because you are being mean to her (although she may lie here and say it anyway). You could re-schedule for a couple of months down the road and don't invite her. I don't know about disinviting her and keeping the invitation open to your dad. It doesn't sound like that would work, as he appears to be firmly enmeshed in her camp. So they are a "package deal" in effect.

If it's not practical for you to re-schedule, then tell her there has been a change of plans and it's not going to work out for her and your dad to be included. Think up a couple of excuses why, but don't spend a lot of effort on that, since she's not going to be happy no matter what you say here. And she is likely going to twist and spin whatever you say to make her the victim and you the "bad person". So you do whatever is best for you and your family and don't worry about the fallout, as you have no control over your mother's reaction.

Regarding your dad, I understand you not wanting to hurt him, but he has chosen to be enmeshed with your mother. That's really his choice. It's sad that he can't be included, but maybe you can see him at another time, under different circumstances than a vacation. Vacations can be very stressful. I don't think it's in your best interest to go through with this just to spare your dad. It really has "disaster" written all over it.

And don't beat yourself up too much over issuing the invite in the first place. As you pointed out, you thought your mother had changed because of the meds and she was on her best behavior. So you were just trying to be nice and spend some quality time with her and your dad. Just didn't work out, because your mother has a disorder and isn't likely to change. She's proving now that she hasn't changed, it was all a temporary facade and she's up to her old tricks of chaos manufacturing and blaming and shaming. Well, no. This time they won't work because you are wise to her game.

Psuedonym · April 08, 2019, 09:53:41 AM

Hey Sidney37,

I don't see this talked about a lot on here, but, holy #@$%, I can relate: Her main coping skill is to get me or my father to make decisions for her and then blame me or him if it didn't go exactly her way.

I agree with Duck and illogical, this is PD behavior, not a coping mechanism for anxiety. My mother does exactly the same thing. She is in the process of moving to a new AL facility, and since I'm NC, was calling up her friend repeatedly and asking her where she should go. No decision is too small to try to shove off on someone else. One time I was at my psychiatrist and I mentioned something about my mother being depressed. She said 'to be clear, that is not depression, that is how your mother expresses depression'. Same thing here. i know plenty of people with anxiety, they do not try to shove off every decision onto everybody else in order to blame them when things don't work out. Its' an inability to take responsibility more than anything.

This one: she picks at me or my father until we snap or blow up at her and then she blames our bad behavior Argggh! It's almost impossible to not blow up:

PD: Asks stupid question
You: answers
PD: Asks same stupid question
You: answers again
(repeat 9 times)
PD: Asks stupid question
You: .....
PD: Did you hear what I said?
PD: Did you hear what I said?
PD: Did you hear what I said?

I feel angry just imagining it.

The bullying, too. Bullying and then acting like a victim. Yeesh, it awful.

One thing you could try is, every time she tries picking on you or your children, insult my in-laws, etc., say: It sounds like you really don't want to go on this trip. Of course she'll get all flustered and mad and say 'what is that supposed to mean?' at which point you say 'I can't think of any other reason why you'd be insulting me or my children or my in laws.' And then she'll deny it, at which point you say 'okay' and change the subject, and just keep changing it if she tries to keep going back to it. If she says 'it sounds like you don't want me to go on this trip!' you can say, 'nope, just making and observation' and then change the subject again. The hard part is of course doing this in a completely unemotional, detached way, but you can both call her out on her behavior and refuse to engage with it at the same time. Of course, even if you successfully get her to uninvite herself, she'll still blame you, but that is what it is.

Don't beat yourself up to much about inviting her in the first place! They're so manipulative that when they're being decent, it's easy to forget how bad it can get.

:bighug:9

Duck · April 08, 2019, 04:37:08 PM

It’s interesting that all our parents pick pick pick. The last time I allowed my dad in my house, he picked and picked. He pulled my hair. True story. He restrained me physically. Yuk, yuk, isn’t “horseplay” so fun. In the midst of this, my husband startled me by swooping in on me from behind (to show affection). I finally betrayed the littlest emotion, and my dad was triumphant. Exultant! Like look at YOUR behavior! I think he wants to prove that everyone is “at fault,” or everyone displays PD behavior, or people “make” him act out. Mind you, the emotion I expressed that day was distress not aggression, but any negative emotion counts against you in his book. It shows you are unbalanced, demanding, mean, unreasonable. (Even though it is very reasonable not to want your hair pulled.)

Sidney37 · April 08, 2019, 07:43:50 PM

Thanks all. It helps to know that this is PD behavior. I'm now trying to unwind this mess that I created by asking them to join us. I'm just so frustrated with myself. I had done all of this work to get Out of the FOG. When she was here months ago without my father, she seemed to be much better. Who knew that her PD traits would come back with a vengeance around him? The bossiness, picking, insulting, etc. was awful last week when they both were here. At least from afar now that she is no longer here, I can hang just up the phone. I am proud of myself that I didn't blow up at her while she was here. I guess I can celebrate that! I just kept grey rock and not JADEing.

I just said to my DH that the Pope or the Dalai Lama might talk back to her after her constant picking and insults. She's that infuriating. She knows what will upset someone and then picks and picks and insults and insults until the person finally gets upset. If there is something she knows your struggle with personally, she insults you or tells you that she was able to do the thing that you couldn't over and over again. If you talk back or snap at her you have lost the game that she is playing. She wins. You are totally wrong and you proved it by your terrible behavior. Thank you for reminding me that this isn't just anxiety. It's PD and I feel like as she gets older the meds aren't helping. She's getting worse.

So I'm considering telling her that it sounds like she doesn't want to go and is trying to get out of it. She's already complained that she needs the money for other things. She is also saying that she has a friend whose son is a pilot who supposedly told his mother that no planes are safe after these jets were recently taken out of service. I don't believe for a second that she told my mother that her son thinks all planes are unsafe and no one should be flying, but that is what she is insisting. But even after those attempts to get out of it, if I say she sounds like she doesn't want to go, she'll deny and say I'm hateful and that I'm the one that doesn't want to go. My other option is to delay the vacation and take the kids on a vacation somewhere that involves more physical activity than she can handle. I feel like I'm JADEing if I make up some excuse to postpone the vacation. If I say it's a money issue, she'll be all over my case asking about money. If I say my husband can't take the time off, she'll be thrilled and insist we go without him. I'm just not sure how to get out of it. If I tell her that I don't want to go with her, the consequences will be awful. And in the end, my dad who is her severely bullied enabler, will suffer for it.

Psuedonym · April 08, 2019, 08:52:10 PM

You know you could just say that after considering her wise words you too have decided that planes are unsafe and cancelled the vacation....and then just go wherever you like without telling her.

WomanInterrupted · April 08, 2019, 10:54:36 PM

I LOVE Pseudonym's answer!

Or you could tell her there's a scheduling conflict, you've had to cancel, and you'll let her know when you've rescheduled - and then you just *don't.*

But DO keep the plans, and go without saying a word.

I understand - unBPD Didi picked and picked and picked and picked, and could have probably made Buddha wig out and lose his shit. I think she could have incited Gandhi and the Dalai Llama to violence!

Worse, if I said something, she's snap, sneer or Waif that she was, "Only trying to be helpful."

Yes, asking what that THING is on my chin, tsking that I didn't show her "the decency" of doing my roots, noting I'd be *such* a pretty girl if I only had my teeth whitened (first, I'm a *woman* and she's implying I'm ugly!

), calling the top I'm wearing a "thing" and insinuating that we should get rid of our pets, because they were taking time away from the attention she felt I should be giving her were REALLY helpful in making me lower contact and sticking to *strict* Medium Chill/Grey Rock!

I wound up telling her *absolutely nothing* about any of us - DH was fine, the cats were well, I'm fine, everything's good - and I wouldn't shake from remarks like that, because you can't insult what you don't know about - and what you don't *see* - including me.

I stopped visiting because she was only getting worse as she aged - just like your mom.

IME, that's just what happens - their world gets smaller and more insular, they don't have the power, looks, influence or money (real or perceived) that they once had, they're having more health problems and have run off most everybody, so they start losing the filters that (sometimes) kept them in check, and the PD really starts running the show.

Please don't worry about your dad - if he hasn't left her, he's got his own part he plays in their Dysfunctional Dance, and *gets* something out of the relationship. He's only as a big a victim as he *allows* himself to be, and allows others to *see* so they feel sorry for him.

He's the long-suffering martyr in all this - feel bad for him

- but I'm sure that, behind closed doors, he gives as good as he gets, which is why the relationship "works" in its own weird, dysfunctional, messed-up way.

You aren't privy to all the steps of their Dysfunctional Dance. Only your parents know it, and if they're anything like unBPD Didi and unNPD Ray, they hate each other, can't stand each other, fight about absolutely nothing, couldn't agree on the color of an orange, call names, point fingers, yell nasty taunts like a couple of children, yet won't leave each other because neither one of them could function in the world without the other as *backup* to how unfair it all is.

And think of it this way - if your parents did wind up going, do you really think your mom is going to let your father have any sort of enjoyable time, at all?

Your mother would *ensure* he had an even worse time than she did, so you're actually doing him a favor, because that trip would probably wind up being hell on earth for him.

You'll do yourself a world of good if you put your mom on a strict Information Diet, and tell her absolutely nothing about you and yours. Stick to gardening or the weather, or maybe TV shows she likes, and you can kind of limp along, plot-wise.

She won't like it, but *tough.*

It'll be like you've not only taken away the proverbial gun, but a stockpile of proverbial ammo, too.

You've GOT this, Sidney!

Associate of Daniel · April 08, 2019, 11:34:28 PM

Is it possible to tell her that her behaviour is unacceptable and consequently she is no longer going on the trip.

If she's behaving like a child, can you treat her as though she is one?

AOD

Sidney37 · April 09, 2019, 09:32:15 AM

Thank you so much WI! I was hoping you'd weigh in on this one. Your experiences remind me of my own.

That "only trying to be helpful" line used to get me all all of the time. I'm not falling for it anymore. Last week she was gloating in a really snide way that she got my child to do a chore that I had asked to be done and it had been ignored. I followed up asking if it had been done completely - take something to the room where it belongs AND put it away. It had not been put away, but dumped out on the floor of the room actually making a bigger mess. But uPDM whined that I was ungrateful. She gloated that she got the child to do a chore that I was unable to get done. When I pointed out that since it wasn't done correctly that the it might get broken and need to be replaced since it was all over the floor, she started weeping that I was so mean to her, she never should have come to visit,

she's never going to visit again and she was just trying to help!

You are totally right about my dad. He chose to stay for 50 years for a reason. They probably couldn't survive outside of this dysfunctional mess.

I've fallen back into the fog and didn't realize it. She clearly manipulated me back to where she wanted me. Back to no information ASAP.

daughter · April 09, 2019, 05:58:35 PM

I'd opt for what I called "the tempered truth". Yes, you don't want to go on this vacation with her; you were side-tracked, disoriented by "nice" behavior, didn't think it through, and now realize that a Big Happy Vacation isn't plausible - given your parents' behaviors (yes, your dad's role too) - so it's time to backtrack and cancel said vacation. That's what should be done, cancelling, but that's not how you present your decision. So call your parents, and state the tempered truth, sorry, but proposed vacation must be canceled, but certainly you'll plan another one with them. There's no blame stated, no discussions of bad behavior dynamics or your feelings of dread, just polite, no-JADE, sorry but it can't be done. The "sugar" is the "oops, sorry", the "not this time", and the "plan another". These are ethical "white lies", to temper the message into a calm statement of facts - no vacation together this year. And no JADE.

Hopefully no nonrefundable deposits have been made. But having experienced torturous vacation with my NPD-enmeshed parents, I know now it would've been far better to have not gone on these joint-vacations, that the emotional damage caused by these vacations only further soured my long-term relationship bond prospects with my badly-behaved parents. And as a full-time working person, and as a parent who realizes our vacations were precious times with our own kids, I significantly curtailed our commitments to joint-vacations, on basis that these joint-vacations were WORK, were STRESSFUL to both us, and sometimes our children too.

I'm now NC, but I spent a good two decades exercising "tempered truth" in regards to managing my malevolent NBM's expectations and demands. Direct refusal would cause her to rage with disappointment, no matter how unconventional, meddling, and/or inappropriate those expectations and demands truthfully were. Our continued relationship required me to be self-effacing and seemingly compliant, and so I didn't directly confront her with any aspects of non-compliance, and if there was to be "disappointment", I did a fair amount of "scripting" beforehand. Eventually, even that didn't work, but oh well...

Sidney37 · April 10, 2019, 10:34:50 AM

Thanks all. You have given me the confidence to get out of this. It is very true that a terrible vacation no matter how wonderful the location with my parents and kids won't be good for me or my kids. Tempered truth sounds like a good option to me. I don't want to JADE. I don't want to lie or make excuses. There is a work scheduling conflict my husband was just notified about this week that might make delaying the planning of this trip inevitable. Is telling her that we are going to delay due to the work conflict JADEing? I could delay for weeks/months making it too late to even plan anything but a last minute family vacation which this certainly wasn't. This trip takes advanced planning and booking.

illogical · April 11, 2019, 06:18:09 AM

I think telling your parents you are delaying the trip due to a work conflict is fine. I would be very vague about any future plans. You don't know how long it will be before you can take the trip. Medium chill so you don't give them false hopes that they are going anytime soon.

You have said your mother doesn't want to go anyway, so she should be fine with it (although may use the occasion to blame you anyway, as she has in the past). As far as your father being disappointed, the behavior of your mom in the past-- the way she's ruined events-- well, better your father be disappointed in not going rather than be part of the inevitable disaster that would occur if you went.

My "philosophy" when dealing with PDs is that I don't make my decisions based on their reactions. I do what is best for me-- to protect me from further abuse-- and I let the chips fall where they may. You can't control how your parents (or anyone, for that matter) is going to react to your decisions. You can only control your behavior and your actions. Often, with PDs, they try to put you in a no-win situation or double-bind. So you proceed with what is in your best interest. The thing is, you have likely been raised (or groomed) to consider their feelings above yours. But their feelings, and their happiness, are not your responsibility.

Sidney37 · April 11, 2019, 11:27:03 AM

Quote from: illogical on April 11, 2019, 06:18:09 AM
My "philosophy" when dealing with PDs is that I don't make my decisions based on their reactions. I do what is best for me-- to protect me from further abuse-- and I let the chips fall where they may. You can't control how your parents (or anyone, for that matter) is going to react to your decisions. You can only control your behavior and your actions. Often, with PDs, they try to put you in a no-win situation or double-bind. So you proceed with what is in your best interest. The thing is, you have likely been raised (or groomed) to consider their feelings above yours. But their feelings, and their happiness, are not your responsibility.

Thank you. That is a great philosophy!! I have been basing decisions on her reactions/drama. She puts me in no-win situations and then melts down when I do anything. I'd rather just avoid her, but I'm not back to the NC point yet. I make decisions to avoid the meltdown. I'm having trouble with medium chill for this reason. I think it's worth addressing that in another post. Thanks!!

daughterofbpd · April 11, 2019, 02:58:23 PM

Yes, I am familiar with the picking. Whenever my M is unhappy and wants to start drama, she'll pick and pick until the other person snaps. Then she starts raging about how that person treats her like crap. Yep. So classic.

I noticed with my M that her moods and behavior seem to cycle so she is okay at times and other times I can tell her anger is building and it is time to stay away. You never really know what you are going to get.

Wishing you luck with everything!