If they won't help themselves, then what's my obligation?

[samtosha]

Hi, this is my first post!  I've been reading here for a while, and it's been extremely helpful. Sorry, this is gonna be long...

So. I've recently come to the conclusion that BOTH my parents have PDs, definitely N for F and probably for M too, plus she has always enabled him. UNF always ignored me and just acted like an arrogant jerk my whole life, so I don't have any relationship with him whatsoever. My main area of FOG is uNM, who has always regarded her children (esp me, the D) as mere extensions of herself, been disapproving, critical, and superior, always right about everything, no respect for anyone's differing viewpoint and CERTAINLY never going to admit she needs help or advice from her children! How could we know anything she doesn't??  So that's the background.

The situation now: UNF is 85 and quite disabled and out of it and 80yo uNM is taking care of him by herself, after he had a long hospitalization that left him needing daily life care. She is managing,  but she complains CONSTANTLY about him - with lots of TMI details and accusations that he's doing it to her on purpose -  - but refuses to hire any help/look for help options/move to AL or even to a senior-friendly building. Nobody can give her advice, nobody knows her pain. I suspect some of this is down to him bossing her around as he's always done, but, though she complains about him, she's the only one allowed to.  They're both exceptionally negative, arrogant, and self-involved and neither I or my B (who lives 3000 miles away) has had much to do with them for years. I have been as LC as I can manage and would be NC if they weren't so old and decrepit - though I'm heading in that direction if I can clear the FOG enough to do so. 

I live in the same general area as them, but for lots of reasons, I'm not planning on doing ANY care-giving and she knows it. I've told her OVER AND OVER not to rely on me! BUT a couple weeks ago she called me at 6 am on a weekday having what she claimed was an "emergency" (she had a red eye and wanted to see a doctor and had to leave uNF alone for a few hours) and surely I could skip work!?! NO, no, NO. I refused, and she was pretty surprised! Had she anticipated this scenario and done anything to address it besides ignoring what I say to her and assuming I would help her? NO!

So, like a good daughter in the FOG, and to get myself off the hook for real,  I actually made some calls and  found some help for her. I had been trying to get her to meet with a care coordinator for months, and miraculously,  got her to agree. I was hopeful. We had the meeting but it ended there.

Two weeks later, she hasn't done ANYTHING this person suggested  - no calls to home health aides (can't pick up the phone, doesn't want to let anyone in, too expensive), no taking uNF to a proper gerontology doc (can't find a doc, can't get him to go), no seeking out AL facilities (the fancy ones she likes are too expensive, no way, forget about it). If I call a home health provider for her, she  turns them down flat. Can't afford it. If we point out that there are free services available? No, don't want it, it's a privacy thing. Always another reason or excuse, no-one can POSSIBLY understand! I'm starting to recognize that this is all symptomatic of her PD and not actual REASONS for anything. The extreme denial and anxiety and refusal to listen to anyone - particularly her kids or "outsiders"? MADDENING. I do recognize a lot of this is down to her extreme fear, need for control, perfectionism, etc. But...so what? Does that mean I have to compensate for her major blind spots when I really don't want to have anything to do with them?

So, I guess my question is - do I have any further obligation here? I still have their apartment key, but I'm about ready to give it back. I certainly will do that if she calls me again in another $%^&$# "emergency". Needless to say, I've been reading here a lot and  working on the FOG aspects of this.

Thanks for listening!! Thoughts?

[Seven]

We have the same mother (mines 88), so I get it.  I think for me it's a tad bit easier because my uNPDm has two sons who bend over backward for her, but only one is local.  The other is 1.5 hours away. The other 4 kids are multiple states away. I'm the closest in proximity now that she has moved back (check my other posts for that bg info), but I've got validation from my sissies (and from the awesome people here) that I don't have to do anything I don't want to.  And I won't.  I'm tired of bending over backwards for her only for her to change her mind AGAIN!

I'm done with it.  I'll go visit when convenient for me, but she's on her own as far as I'm concerned. 

Just wanted to let you know I feel ya!

I'm sure WI will chime in.  She's a rock! 

[samtosha]

Thanks, Seven! I am still working on being more sure of myself regarding saying "no" and staying away. I'm so frustrated with her though, and my B just said "F them, I'm done." after she turned down the lovely home health lady's freebie offer to just get her signed up IN CASE OF AN EMERGENCY. What is her plan for the next emergency, you ask? I guess we'll just have to wait and see!

Anyway, thanks for your support, it's so nice to have some understanding about this instead of the usual guilt-trips!

[Andeza]

What's her plan for the next emergency? You of course! 

"No" is a complete sentence. I had to repeat that to myself a few times before it really sank in.

So my take upon reading what you've put here is that you still feel the pressure of the FOG but you're starting to repel it. Great job! Just gotta keep the gloves up and ready for the next punch.

Obligation? No. If you feel your M's actions cross the line of neglect toward your father that would be the only case where you might want to place one of those handy anonymous phone calls if you get my drift, but otherwise, no. As has been said many times by wiser people than I am on this forum: they chose to have you and raise you. They had an obligation to take care of you, but your birth did not enter you into some bizarre contractual agreement to take care of them.

As the only child and a girl no less, my mother trained me to be the dutiful daughter. However I'm horribly squeamish about everything medical so I ditched that role years ago. Really, really backfired on her. I will not take care of her in any sense, which is bad for her because she is aging, has many health problems, and refuses to really do anything about it.

You said "but refuses to hire any help/look for help options/move to AL or even to a senior-friendly building. Nobody can give her advice, nobody knows her pain." I can't tell you how many times I heard some variation on that theme in the last few years. I'm a fixer by nature. I see a problem I want to fix it, heck, I'll even build a better mousetrap so to speak. But regarding my M I had to shut off that part of my brain because she doesn't want help. She wants to be a martyr. I really think that's what your M wants too. She wants to be the focus of sympathy and attention. She wants everyone to sigh and say "Oh, poor so-and-so, she's been taking care of her old man for x years, it must be so hard! She must have a heart of gold... etc, etc  "

Took me a while that to figure out that M just wanted one of two possible outcomes. Either I stepped in and took care of "life" for her (everything, in other words), or she would continue to complain about everything that is wrong in her life while never lifting a finger to fix it. Either way she gets her supply, just one of those scenarios means it doesn't come from me. Now, sometimes just to get her to stop talking about problems x, y, and z, I remind M that her hardships are the result of her decisions not to seek the appropriate help. She hasn't hung up on me yet, but I think we've gotten pretty close a couple of times.

[WomanInterrupted]

Hi Samtosha - and welcome! 

I'm the only child of unBPD Didi and unNPD Ray, who both decided, in turn, that they were owed a free slave - me - as they aged.   

Worse, they lived 3 short miles away (15 minutes by car, max), and thought they should be able to call me up and have me come running, on a moment's notice.

It didn't work out like that.   

I owed them *nothing*.  Emergencies were *theirs* to figure out, and didn't need to involve me.  If either of them called me up, complaining that they had to go to the ER, I'd always respond, "Call an ambulance."

I'd usually hear that they didn't want to BOTHER the paramedics.  (Oh, but bugging me isn't bothering me!?)  I'd respond they weren't bothering them - call an ambulance. 

That was my stock response, even for minor "emergencies" - if they wanted to go to the ER, they were going to have to foot the $150 bill.  (And did, many times.)

Any time they'd complain "somebody" (hint:  me) should cook, clean, do laundry, or help them with home health care, or drive them around town, I'd kick it right back up the food chain with, "You need to call Meals on Wheels/ Merry Maids/ a laundry service/hire an aide/call the Senior Van or a taxi."   

They'd refuse - it was too much money, and they didn't want to BOTHER them.

I'd say, "Then I don't know what to tell you, but I'm sure you'll figure something out."   

Generic heath complaints were met with, "Hm.  That's a shame.  You need to talk to your doctor/pharmacist/the visiting nurse.  I can't help you."   

Many times, Didi would slam the phone down on me, but Ray would just keep rambling on, hoping to wear me down.

They were married and lived together, but Didi always treated me as HER property.  Ray didn't become a problem until after Didi died.

Often, I'd just hang up on him after telling him I had to go, and he wouldn't stop talking.   

In both cases, I stayed away, did absolutely nothing and started significantly lowering contact.  Didi  started having "emergencies" and winding up in the hospital for Makeitupitis, so many times that I stopped caring that they thought she *gaaaaasp!* might have caaaaaaaaaaancer, again, some more, again, some more, again, some more. 

Even when she was in a Hospice facility, I *still* didn't believe her, and figured they'd bounce her in a week, once they figured out she was full of it.

But she did the decent thing and popped off, just a couple of days later.  I didn't go to the wake or funeral, because I was too "overcome" with emotion - just not the ones everybody thought. 

I was going to go VVVVLC with Ray, but he was living in Didi's hoard, so I took a months to dehoard the place and realized I was never going to be able to have any sort of relationship with him.  I went VVVVVVVLC and suggested he get Life Alert - which he thought was stupid, because 85 is YOUNG!   

But he did get it, after thinking of it all by himself, but refused to use it, thinking it was *my job* to pick him up after one of his many spectacular falls.   

I'd just let his calls go to voice and delete them.   

Eventually, social workers started calling to "motivate" me to be his caregiver and I refused, every single time.  I'd say *impossible* - but they'd write down unwilling.

I told them to write down any damned thing they wanted, the answer was still NO.   

Unwilling is a word shrouded in FOG and intentionally used to try to make you feel bad.  Ignore it.  It's just a cheap tactic and doesn't work if you *stay away.*   

I figured somebody would notice the mail and papers piling up at Ray's, call the police, who'd break in and find him dead or in serious condition at the bottom of the basement stairs - and I was okay with that, because he REFUSED all outside assistance and wouldn't use a cane or walker.

They were for old people, you see.   

Instead, he was found on his bathroom floor, with his Life Alert right by his hand, but laid there long enough to get a grade 4 pressure ulcer.  APS called me - I refused to come.  I told them to do what they had to, so they pulled rank on Ray and *made* him go to the hospital, where he was declared incompetent.

He went into a memory care unit, I settled his affairs and went NC.   

So it *can* be done - you CAN stay out of it and let things fall apart, organically, by lowering contact and shoving their problems back to their side of the table, where they belong.   

Just because they want YOU to do everything, doesn't mean you can - or should.   

You owe your parents *nothing.*  Their problems are theirs alone to figure out, and if they refuse outside help, expecting you to shoulder the burden - tough.  It doesn't work like that, because you are not *beholden* to them.   

If you do have phone contact, I'd keep it *short* and use strict Medium Chill (found in the Toolbox and your new BFF).

Health complaints?  "Oh that's a shame.  Have you spoken to your doctor/dad's doctor?"   

You'll really be surprised at how fast they want to get off the phone when you REFUSE to play their games.   

But I think your B has the right idea - walk away.  They'll survive - they always manage.

[samtosha]

Thank you so much for the support, WI and Andeza! It's wonderful to be understood!

Ironically, for years M has been saying, with great drama, that she "doesn't ever want to be a BURDEN to her CHILDREN!" The only way I could get her to even meet with the care coordinator person was to point out that not addressing her problems and expecting me to drop everything for emergencies WAS BEING A BURDEN. That worked for a little while, but she's gone right back to her same old ways. 

I agree with you, Andeza, that she's mainly looking for attention and doesn't want solutions. This has been a pattern with her ever since I was a kid and she had a job she hated and complained about FOR TWENTY YEARS. I too am a fixer by nature and I have lots of common sense, but she always had a bunch of "reasons" that nothing could be done! It was frustrating then and it's frustrating now. The difference now is that I've been worried she has enough cognitive decline that someone SHOULD be intervening. I'm still kind of on the fence about that one, but on balance, as you all say, it's NOT MY JOB.

And as you all know, the weird thing about FOG is that we feel this guilt and obligation because we are good people who naturally have compassion for others. But eventually, these horrible PD nightmare people just drive those feelings right out of us.

I am actually almost 100% reconciled to my decision. The way I see it is - there needs to be at least one of these 3 things present to make me to want to take care of them:

1. We have a loving, mutually fulfilling relationship with unconditional support, acceptance, and understanding. NOPE
2. I am independently wealthy and able to spend a lot of time/resources on them. NOPE NOPE
3. They are cooperative and even a tiny bit amenable to advice and suggestions. NOPE NOPE NOPE!

Actually now that I look at it, without number 1, the other two wouldn't even be enough. Being judged, criticized, undermined etc. by those people my whole life has worn down any generous feelings I may otherwise have. And honestly, I'm not all that concerned about neglect/abuse of F based on what I've seen, but even that would probably not motivate me to do more than I'm doing (besides, as you say, maybe making a phone call).

Anyway, I so appreciate this conversation. Thanks again!

[GentleSoul]

Thanks so much for all the sharing and information in this thread.  So much of these situations relate to mine.  My uPD hubby is very ill, pretty disabled in that can hardly walk, is frail and sleeps most of the time. 

Earlier in his health decline, he was able to do a lot more but opted not too. He was too lazy (his words) and would try and dump everything on me.

He was very unwilling to help himself.  He seemed to think it was clever to go against doctors advice.

I learnt to only do care giving things for him that he could genuinely not do for himself.  I also trained him not to yell for me urgently, I would come running thinking he had fallen or was having heart attack just to find he wanted to tell me about a program on tv or the book he was reading!! I trained him by me not responding to his urgent yelling so he stopped.

[Lillith65]

I am actually almost 100% reconciled to my decision. The way I see it is - there needs to be at least one of these 3 things present to make me to want to take care of them:

1. We have a loving, mutually fulfilling relationship with unconditional support, acceptance, and understanding. NOPE
2. I am independently wealthy and able to spend a lot of time/resources on them. NOPE NOPE
3. They are cooperative and even a tiny bit amenable to advice and suggestions. NOPE NOPE NOPE!

This is excellent Samtosha. Thank you so much.

[Ariel]

I am also going through this now. I am also a fixer . I live 300 miles away from. My pd mom. She came out of the hospital and needed help I met with some senior services but she doesn't want it.she wants her family to do it  I and my family nephew live to far. My neice came to help and she turned viciously on her and me. Feel bad for my Alzheimer's dad but I am done. She just called and accused me of trying to her labelled incompetent. I won't take her calls

[FeelAlone]

Wow, how is it all so much the same for all of us? Do "they" have a manual? My husband and I uprooted our lives and moved to come and help my 82 yr. old Mom whose husband was diagnosed with dementia. We "helped" for 6 years. In hindsight: it was a horrible decision for us: career wise, psyche wise, etc. Her husband passed. We stayed to help her and were then rewarded with a 2 1/2 year long lawsuit when she moved North out of the blue to live near my estranged sister. My sister was made POA and they both then started trying to evict us from the home she "gave me". The lawsuit and terrorism is over now because my Mom passed and we are being "allowed" to buy the house?! Oh, yeah, and I was disinherited. So, the moral of the story is: you will never do it "right", you will never be appreciated, you will be used and abused and only you can decide what your boundaries are! When the threats of eviction began, I tried to talk to my Mother rationally to deal with the situation. She said she could not really understand what was going on but my sister told her she had to do this . Baloney: my Mother was not "confused"; just evil. That was it for me: went NC. Did go to see her in the hospital after 2 1/2 years of NC right b4 she passed but that was for me and not for her. Sadly: good riddance to both my heinous sister and my mother! Freedom.

[HaplessRussell]

Heh heh WomanInterrupted I'm reading your posts and Ray sounds like my mother!

Rather unkindly I had a giggle to myself at the lying on the bathroom floor with his LifeLine thing next to his hand. I had a call from mum's alcohol support worker after she'd not been seen for 3 days (hey! when she's not been in the corner shop buying drink for 3 days you KNOOOOOW there's a Thing!) "it's not good news.... she's had another stomach bleed and she's been lying in bed for 3 days all alone and frightened..."

And really? Lying *next to a phone* and with your Lifeline next to your bed, but you're too frightened to get medical help when you're vomiting blood....?

[Zebrastriped]

samtosha, my parents did the same thing, refused outside help.  I used to say of them, "you can throw a horse in water, and it still wont drink."  the only thing I could figure after a while is that they wanted to be miserable.  Look at me, I'm a martyr, your other parent makes me suffer so.

nothing wrong with a flight response when you can't win.  I hear you on the TMI.  Bleck.

If this behavior is what they choose, all the coping suggestions in the world will not help them.  Save yourself.

[zak]

Your situation is so familiar to me and many others. I did opt for the NC option four years ago and have not regretted it for one, single, second. Currently my uNPDM has worsening dementia, lives alone with her cat, no family within 3 hours, can't self-care properly , home smells and is unsafe; but of course, she's still telling everyone " I'm fine". She's cancelled every assessment her doctor, meals on wheels social worker or family have made for her. Sound familiar ?

For you, this is heading one way or another really. A crisis will occur with one or the other of them needing hospitalisation, questions will be asked, assessments made and then family or authorities will intervene and make decisions;  or it will get so chaotic and unstable in their own home that again, 'someone' GP, social workers or whoever will start calling you or your brother.

In our situation (happening right now) the latter happened. A meals on wheels Social worker started calling six months ago. I refused to give up NC but was happy to support my brother with admin, research and talking to providers. He likewise agreed to do the face to face calls and attend meetings. Frankly it's been quite stressful, even being NC to hear how she's even now telling everyone how she doesn't want help blah blah blah. We finally got a court ordered POA last week - even that was shambolic. If you want to feel better/have a laugh you can read my post on this process !

The point I'm making, is that this is a difficult time ahead; even if you go NC, you really aren't spared the vicarious stress. You can however, have some pre-thought out boundaries about what you are and are not prepared to do. You can seek some counselling to help you through the process and you can prioritise your own self-care. They have had their lives and have made their own choices which have led to this point. Your mother can still make better choices. Likewise you can make choices too, to look after yourself and your loved ones. Good luck 

[goofycrumble]

samtosha how are you feeling? any update 

[samtosha]

Hi all, thank you for all the replies! I appreciate the feedback, which has strengthened my resolve to stay far far away. I saw them in June and NM seemed to be coping - she's even joined a support group! However, the martyrdom, endless complaints and gross details continue. (We decided ahead of time that if she started in about NF's incontinence and how saintly she was to clean him up - IN DETAIL - that would be our cue to leave. And she did - and we did! We'd finished dinner so there was no drama. Just - time to go!). Mostly she's focused on herself and her suffering. When she does notice me, she's either asking intrusive questions or invalidating me in some way, or else plotting some kind of manipulation of another family member (currently trying to get my bro to marry his long term GF by offering her jewelry "as an engagement present" when there's no sign they're ever gonna get married! WTF!). It takes me days/weeks to recover - a weird thing that happens is I'll remember something she said days later and then realize how crappy it was, because I often don't quite recognize it at the time, I just know in the moment that my stress level is high and my happiness level is low. Ugh! The crux of the problem of dealing with PD parents!

She's completely oblivious, of course, sending gushing emails about how wonderful it was to see us and would I come back right away because she needs company. My sweet daughter was in town the next weekend but I couldn't face seeing them so soon so I said we were too busy. (DD wouldn't go by herself because ...they're difficult for her too!). The communication stopped after that one rebuff and I haven't heard a peep in 2 months. Phew!
I'm sure at some point more will be required of me, but as long as things are quiet, I'm not poking the hornet's nest! Thanks again!

[WomanInterrupted]

First - GREAT job on those boundaries!  Girl, they look GOOD on you!   

Ooooh, lucky you, for refusing to come back the next day, you're getting the Silent Treat!   

BTW - that wasn't a request for companionship.  That  was her letting you know  she expects *more* from you, and wants you to help out.   

I know it's a bit early to think about the holidays, but I'd start planning on NOT visiting for any of them.  You're just "too busy" with stuff  and can't get away. 

Why?

It's only going to keep getting worse - her martyrdom act, the invasive questions, the invalidation - with her being stressed, she's  probably going to keep chipping away at you, hoping you *snap* so she can play VICTIM to your bully - and tell *everybody* how you yelled at her  when she did *nothing wrong* and she's just being a good wife, in caring for her ailing DH, and gets NO help from you...   

Cue the Flying Messenger Monkeys, calling to SHAME you into compliance.   

Or she might start putting you to work - just a few "minor" things  - or you might notice the place has really gone to pot, and your mom really *does* need help, so you just start...well...cleaning, because it's like muscle memory.   She needs it done, so you just start doing it.

In PD world, if you do it *once* it means it's YOUR JOB and you MUST keep doing it. 

If you *actively avoid* going, nothing can automatically become your job.   

*NOTHING* more will be required of you if you *don't go to her house* and on the phone, are utterly useless, by using Medium Chill and kicking her problems - or your dad's problems - higher up the food chain to a doctor, pharmacist, specialist, getting Meals on Wheels, having the pharmacy deliver, using Uber for appointments, ordering groceries online and having them delivered - you get the idea. 

Your goal is to become the Mythical Adult Daughter, seen about as often as a leprechaun  riding a unicorn, and heard from maybe once, every other blue moon, if the year ends in a prime number - and if you're considering NC, only if that prime number can be successfully divided by pi  to a *round number.*   

More will NOT be required from you *if you determine you can't do more.  You can only do LESS, and become Sir Not Appearing In This Film.* 

Others will see and intervene.  They call it a social safety net for a reason - and it usually works, to certain degrees - but that doesn't mean *you* need to take up any slack. 

It used to take me days, too, to realize, "Hey...wait a minute...that was an INSULT!" 

Or a dig, invalidation, a cheap shot - hurtful things. 

By taking yourself out of the picture,  those few days start to become a day - then maybe several hours  - which then become several *minutes* - and if the person isn't disordered, you can have a discussion with them about how you felt when they said X, and not get, "What?  You're still thinking about that?"

You  said things are quiet - good.     Just remember that when they're not, *Keep your hands and feet inside the shark cage, at all times.  It's SAFE in the shark cage*  - and do not be bullied, hectored, lectured, or FOGged into doing a thing.   

You're doing ALL that you can - which means remaining in that snug little shark cage, knowing you are SAFE and none of this will become your problem - because you've chosen to NOT *allow* it to become your problem. 

[samtosha]

Thanks, WI! I think I am getting the silent treatment , it's great.

NM's thing has always been how super competent she is - she won't let us do normal stuff like help with the dishes, etc. It's part of her saintly martyr routine, a way to maintain control, and a way to be superior and to get admiration. So there's no expectation that we'll do any of that when we see her. She's dealing with NF ok, and anything she's not able to do, she isn't asking me to do anymore, for now. It's weird but I'm going with it!

Your advice is really spot on! We've decided already that we're unavailable for the holidays. So sick of them being ruined! And now they don't go anywhere which makes it easier to opt out of things. I love the Mythical Adult Daughter idea!

I do anticipate that when my F dies, there will be another level of drama and expectations etc. I have literally no relationship with NF and I never have, by his choice. So I'm only worried about what she'll want from me at that time and how best to deflect it.  I'm figuring she'll want a lot of attention and I'm in no mood to play along. We'll see!

[WomanInterrupted]

I knew when unBPD Didi died that unNPD Ray would expect me to just take her place as his verbal sparring partner, while doing all the "women's work" (cooking, cleaning, laundry) and would want to rely on me as an emotional crutch - as well as a physical one, because  canes and walkers are for OLD people. 

First - I didn't go to the wake or funeral.  I was too "overcome" with emotion, but just not the ones people would expect after a parent dies. 

Second - I was going to go NC, immediately, but his house was a hoarded-up death trap.  Instead, I took *months* to clear it out, while maintaining my distance (Medium Chill) and *refusing* to give him enemas, or reacting to his increasingly outrageous and vulgar remarks, intended to bait me into an argument. 

So...I finished and went back under my VVVVLC rock - and started getting all kind of phone calls from Ray.  He fell!  Where am I?  He's  lonely!  Where am I?  He needs to go to the ER!  Where AM I? 

I 'm here, deleting your messages.  Figure it out, Ray! 

I did talk to him, from time to time, pushing his problems to his side of the plate, and even recommended Life Alert, which he thought was  a waste of money.  A few months later, he called me, crowing that he got it  after he thought of it *all by himself.*

Yeah - whatevs.  Tell it to somebody who cares. 

But he didn't want to USE the thing!  Instead, he'd call here, yell at the answering machine, and a few days later, I might call him back, only to hear, "Where WERE you?  I fell!" 

I'd say sorry to hear it, but I was busy, and he's got Life Alert - press the button.

He'd say he didn't want to BOTHER them.   

But calling your 50+ year old daughter, who is missing 2 discs in her low back and  looks like she fell off a charm bracelet (I'm small) to get your 200+ pound carcass off the floor because you won't use a cane isn't bothering me!?!? 

At this point, I VERY rarely returned Ray's calls - and often several weeks (or months) later. 

He had a heart attack he'll tell you he didn't have, didn't press his button, called his visiting nurse, who SCREAMED at him to press the button, went to a hospital, but then didn't want to go to rehab, telling people I'd take care of him. 

Oh, HELLS no!  I worked behind the scenes (phone ONLY) to get him to rehab, then made myself even more scarce because they arranged for a home-care team    - that Ray promptly fired, when they started sending men he couldn't sexually harass. 

That's when Social Worker Roulette started - four different rounds of me saying, "NO.  I will NOT act as a caregiver, in ANY capacity, for any reason." 

If I'd had my cell phone back then, I'd have blocked them all - which is allowable.  As long as you stay OUT of the picture, FOG is the only weapon they have, along with saying they're writing down the word "unwilling."

In all seriousness, you can tell them you live 4 hours away, have a full-time job and a part-time job, plus you've got six kids, all under the age of 8, and they're still going to write down "unwilling." 

So don't let that word trip you up - it's a CHEAP TRICK. 

Eventually,  he fell, was declared incompetent and placed in a memory care unit, and I didn't have to do anything, at all, except stay out of it, and keep saying, "NO!" 

I was enmeshed with Didi, but pulled myself out of it and lowered contact significantly.  I  had virtually no relationship with Ray, even though they were married and lived in the same house.

But I don't think it matters which one passes first - the surviving spouse just expects YOU to fill in the role of the deceased partner, and things will go on like they were, without missing a beat. 

Ray went from sad, sad, saaaaaaad widower  to *not even mentioning Didi's name* within a week, except to scream it at *me.* (He's always done that - we were interchangeable   )  I'd be dehoarding and he'd want me to make lunch, do laundry, clean something or make the bed, and I'd tell him, "I'm not here for that.  I'm here for the hoard.  That's the job I'm doing, and nothing else." 

He'd shuffle off, dejected, and I began to sound like a broken record, but I *never wavered.*  Hoard ONLY.   

Then he wanted me to give him enemas (NO!), look in his ears, or check out that funny bump on his arm - NO.  Call a DOCTOR.  I am not a DOCTOR. 

Then came following me around, trying to bait me into arguing with him - I'd deflect with Medium Chill, but if something was really gross, inappropriate or offensive, I'd state, "Inappropriate," and not respond. 

But if you stay out of it, you won't have to worry about your mom following you around - but you probably will be deleting about 10,000 pesky phone messages and texts, expecting you to pick up where your father left off.   

REFUSE.  MALFUNCTION!  And do yourself a favor by blocking her number. 

[samtosha]

Thank you, WI! It turns out my uncle (M's older bro) is helping her - he's literally telling her to do the same things I did 8 months ago, with the difference being that she listens to and defers to him.  Me, nah. I'm just her kid. 

He's not hassling me AT ALL, which tells me he kind of gets it. I had mentioned some of my stuff to his kids, my cousins, a few months ago.  And uPDM has been pretty horrible to a lot of people, including my various aunts (she loves to dominate women, though she simperingly defers to men) not just me. We'll see how it goes. I'm practicing a response if he ever comes to me, which will be something like, "I'm not able to help, so thank you for stepping in." And "I'm happy to tell you why if you really want to know." Shrug?

Also, I've been thinking a lot about this lately and I've realized my uPDM's major thing is dominance and superiority. So she doesn't lose control and rage at me, she's more likely to shut me out if I draw a boundary.  This is FINE with me!

I'm also thinking about the whole idea that we have actual obligations to our biological family because they're FAMILY. Truthfully, the accident of shared genes is all that ties us literally to anyone in our FOO. Everything else is an artificial cultural idea or traditional expectation. Right? If you love your parents or are loved by them, it's a lucky circumstance but is absolutely not a GIVEN just because they passed their genes on to you. This is really helping me let go of the idea that I should feel or behave a certain way with my parents. If I don't want to, it's really ok. 

[WomanInterrupted]

I want to say how PROUD I am of you for staying out of it, and let others take up the slack!   

Your mom's older brother has known her all her life, and has probably seen many of the same things you've seen - and he's less apt to take it from her.  And there's that whole "man" thing, which I just don't get, but unBPD Didi and unNPD Ray were the same damned way. 

A female nurse - or female daughter tells 'em to do something - nope.  But if somebody with the correct set of genitals says it, they'd comply. 

Keep drawing those boundaries, to protect you from her rage!    Having her shut down and withdrawn is preferable to having her verbally abuse you, or scream at you that her brother shouldn't HAVE to be doing this stuff, and it's such a BOTHER for him - hint, hint, hint. 

If she ever fires off something like that at you, stick to, "He's chosen to do it, and if you think he needs help, you'll have to hire aides to assist him." 

In other words, I am NOT getting involved, so don't even think about it! 

If her brother ever tells you he can't keep doing it, it's just too much work, suggest *he* talk to your mom about hiring aides, since she's more likely to listen to him. 

And keep your nose OUT of their business.  Your parents made their bed - they can lie in it.

I agree - just because you share genes with somebody, or were adopted into the family, doesn't mean you are OBLIGATED to help out in any way.  Most of it is cultural, or what we've been told - or we've been told as kids that we are *going* to help out when they're old, or had it suggested to us that that's just what adult children DO. 

Just because it's said to us, doesn't make it true - especially if the person is abusive, and you know they're just going to use the opportunity to *revive* that old parent-child dynamic, where they do all the screaming, complaining and possibly lashing out, physically, while you scurry and hurry and can't get a damned thing right, to save your life.

That's the *last* thing, anybody needs - to feel 10, all over again, and just has hopeless as they felt back then, while wondering how the hell it happened.

Stay the course, Samtosha!   Keep letting others take up the slack, and keep your hands and feet inside the shark cage, where it's SAFE!