Would you do the 'Granny Drop' ?

[zak]

My M is 87; according to my T is covert narcissist.  F who died when I was 19 was, also according to my T a NPD. M has been a nightmare her entire life; all siblings including myself are NC or VLC. No one lives within 2 hours of her. We are a very fractured family with intergenerational PD's and a M intent on dividing and conquering; so all but two of us are NC, not only with M, but also with each other. My brother and I are relatively  OK, after a life-time of working on it...

B has had calls from a social worker saying M has bad dementia, is not self-caring, lost weight, house smells, cats living inside etc and needs urgent help to be arranged. M would never allow anyone to have POA so needs to agree to assessments. Of course she is 100% refusing. B arranges for the doctor to visit (she hasn't been in 18 months). He says , situation is terrible but nothing he can do. Social worker is pressuring for intervention by the family. Neither social worker or doctor will provide reports so that we can apply for Guardianship.

I've posted about this previously and had decided to stay the heck out of it. Problem is B is for the 'do nothing, wait for the wheels to come completely off' option. Doctor, social worker and my T advise she be taken to the nearest public hospital i.e the Granny Drop  (I'm in Australia where we have free health care) where the aged care team will admit her; assessments will be done and end result would be fast-track into aged care.

Staying out of it, isn't managing my cptsd reactions very well. I'm naturally an organised, caring, capable person who, when confronted with a problem, brings energy and commitment to resolve. I'm feeling triggered and constantly on edge; holding back on my natural response isn't natural, yet the thought of having anything to do with this, sends me into an anxiety state. I can feel that I'm totally pissed,  that, even now, at this age , she's still creating havoc and won't agree to the slightest thing that might alleviate her situation. Of course, all other PD siblings are in the 'don't give a stuff camp'.

I'm not sure whether to wait it out for the inevitable catastrophe or try to engage B into the 'granny drop' as the health care professionals recommend. I just want it to go away.

What would you do; and, any advice for managing my somewhat anxious and agitated frame of mind ? Thanks

[WomanInterrupted]

I've walked a mile in your shoes, Whole Hearted - and did so by staying out of it, completely, and letting nature take its course.  UnNPD Ray fell, refused to use his Life Alert button, and was taken to the hospital, where he was declared incompetent, and later placed in a memory care unit.

I stayed out of it all - even when Adult Protective Services asked me to come to the scene.  I told them I couldn't - so they pulled rank on Ray, and that's how I got him the help he needed *at least* ten years ago, but kept refusing because he was FINE - when he was anything BUT!   

That was the outcome I could live with.   

If you can't - I understand.

I'm in the US, so the idea of a Granny Drop is interesting, but  I'm not quite sure what it entails.

Can you just call an ambulance to her home, citing that she's old, has many medical issues she's not caring for, and you're doing a Granny Drop, then have her taken to the emergency room for assessment, and they take it from there?

If that's all you have to do - I'd do it - and would have done it for Ray, in a heartbeat. 

You said the doctor, social worker and your T all advise a Granny Drop, but did they tell you HOW this can be accomplished, or if one of them can instigate it?

If you have to be in her home to get the ball rolling - NO.  All STOP.  Why put yourself at risk at being her *caregiver* and being told you can't leave? 

That's how it works in the US - you can be STUCK there, until somebody can replace you.   

If you can take a hands-free approach in the Granny Drop - meaning you do everything by phone, text, or email and *do not ever have to show up, in person, and sign a THING* - I'd say go for it.   

If you have to be there - I'd probably start blocking numbers like crazy (doctor, social workers, your mom and maybe even your B) and let the chips fall where they may - then throw myself into *my* life, and getting a handle on that anxiety.   

I can feel that I'm totally pissed,  that, even now, at this age , she's still creating havoc and won't agree to the slightest thing that might alleviate her situation.

Doesn't  it just shit you to tears?  Ray was the same way - hell, he had a TEAM in place, after he came home from the hospital, after that was-not-a-heart-attack-that-was-SO-a-heart-attack he had, but wound up firing them all when they started sending men he couldn't sexually harass. 

That's when I decided, "NOPE.  DUNZO.  My mental and physical well-being matter more to *me and mine* than his shit-show of wanting to *appear* normal, and like he's not slipping does.  He can do whatever the hell he wants and I'm staying OUT of it."   

If I were you, I'd find out more details about the Granny Drop, but that's about it.  If it can't be accomplished without you actually being there, I'd just block numbers and stick my head in the sand, go dark, and start singing Que Serra, Serra. 

Sometimes that's the only thing  you can do.

Think of *yourself* first - I know that's a concept that's probably alien to you, but over time, it gets easier.  We do NOT have to people please, put order to chaos or make things right.  We can just live our lives and not give a toss what anybody else thinks.   

[zak]

Thanks WI, I love your posts and really appreciate your advice. A Granny Drop is slang for taking your elder to a hospital emergency department for exactly the reasons you describe. You can do it via ambulance but for both, I or B would have to be there.  If it was a true emergency, fall etc then it would be automatic, but if one of us was to do it, we'd have to trick her or just insist which could be messy. You don't want to get into the area of elder abuse and she wouldn't hesitate to tell people you'd abused her.

You really zero in on what it feels like to be going through this, so thanks WI; you're a champ :-)

[looloo]

Hi whole hearted  ,

I just want to offer my support for going with the option of NOT participating in the drop, if you must be there in person.  I'm in the US and my Nmother's situation is its own bunch of challenges.  I have drawn my boundary to be "anything that requires me being there in person" is a dealbreaker (with the exception of her getting medical care where she will not be returning home, or the eventual passing of her dog, or her own passing).

For an adult child with their own life and job and family responsibilities, for whom these situations are toxic and abusive — where we know that our presence just makes things worse! — deciding that we will NOT get involved in this way is a perfectly reasonable, healthy, and practical decision. 

You have TOTAL support and understanding here!  Hugs...

[WomanInterrupted]

You just used the magic, "Stay OUT of this!" words:  elder abuse.   

If any doctor or social worker insists you do the Granny Drop again, I'd tell them she's likely to accuse you of it, so NO, you will not be doing a THING, because you can't be accused of abuse if you're nowhere near her; you're sure they'll figure out something, do NOT call again.  - and BLOCK AWAY!   

I'd also mention it to your T, so you're both on the same page in why you won't be doing the Granny Drop - it's not that you're stubborn or afraid of her - you don't want to have to clear your name!   

It baffles me that they expect us to be slaves, yet trot out having us charged with elder abuse, like it's supposed to make the idea of being their slaves MORE appealing, somehow!   

I think it's supposed to make us behave like terrified little children, all over again, with the all-powerful mother we lived to fear, but had to OBEY and appease and placate, just to survive.   

But you're *not* a child.  You're an adult, with agency, and can make your own decisions - and if you decide to stay out of it and watch the train wreck from afar, I think that's the best decision you can make.   

It's not going to go well for your mother.  The more they age, the more the PD runs the show, but it's like the PD is on steroids, and cranked up to 11.

She's going to get even nastier, more argumentative, shoutier, opinionated and possibly in the tin-foil-hat kind of way, and will insist SOMEBODY has to do SOMETHING but NOBODY is doing ANYTHING - while refusing to follow even the most basic of directions, because nobody is going to tell her what to do!   

The only thing I can suggest is if  you have Visiting Nurses, ask her doctor to have one swing by to check on her once a week, to make sure she's taking her meds, having them refilled, and managing her medical conditions properly.

In the US, a Visiting Nurse is a mandated reporter - and can get the authorities involved, while you and  your brother stay OUT of it.

And a Visiting Nurse can probably do a Granny Drop *for* you, by either noticing a problem that MUST be attended to by the ER, or getting to know your mother enough that she can insist a minor problem is actually a MAJOR problem and she MUST go to the ER, NOW - and get the ball rolling on getting your mother the care she *needs* and NOT the care she thinks you and your brother OWE her.   

If there is no Visiting Nurse program - just go dark and let the wheels fall off.  She has neighbors.  She has mail delivery and possibly has the news delivered once or twice a day.

People will notice her absence, or that she's not picking up her mail or papers.

If you've ever seen your mom's fate, in your mind's eye - it's probably not going to be far from wrong.

You just have to be okay with it.  You didn't cause it, you can't control it, and you can't cure it.

[Rose1]

Australian here. I agree the magic word is elder abuse. Would she go for an acat assessment? I don't believe that requires your presence and if approved allows for some in home services.

[GentleSoul]

So much in here I relate to. My uPD husband is very ill and has refused quite a lot of the treatment our doctor has offered as well as ignoring advice the specialists have given.  What they did to cover themselves and also me is to document all his refusals.  So at no point can he accuse me or them of not offering all possible treatment.  It is within his character to make accusations like that.

[zak]

Thanks Rose1, no she won't agree to an ACAT (now My Aged Care MAC assessment). The social worker talked her into one, but she then cancelled when MAC called to schedule the appointment, so they couldn't insist. When my B suggested the same thing, she became abusive in order to end the conversation. When I was in contact I attempted to get her to agree to assessment many many times but no hope.

loo loo, I really like your practical advice to have a boundary rule predetermined. Such a sensible thing to do.

WI - I think you know my M. ! Thanks again. Yes the elder abuse thing is a big red flag to getting involved. Elder abuse is a very hot topic here in Australia at the moment so one to be highly cautious of.

I think I came to the forum looking for support to stay out of this. I know some of the hideous lies she's told anyone and everyone about me in the past on no provocation; so you can imagine she'd have no hesitation in screaming that she'd been abused; especially with PD and dementia.

Thanks everyone else, it really helps...

[lkdrymom]

Since you are no contact now I think it would be best if you stayed that way.  I can see no good (for you) coming with you getting involved.

[Rose1]

Yeah. Not surprised but worth a try.

[spring13]

You can do it via ambulance but for both, I or B would have to be there.  If it was a true emergency, fall etc then it would be automatic, but if one of us was to do it, we'd have to trick her or just insist which could be messy. You don't want to get into the area of elder abuse and she wouldn't hesitate to tell people you'd abused her.

Wholehearted, I'm so sorry you're going through this. But like others here, this mention of elder abuse really got my attention--for all the other reasons you stated, but especially for this one, I think you should stay away.

I understand that it is difficult, especially when you are someone who is naturally inclined to help in this type of situation. I get that. It's hard to go against our instincts, but our survival instincts need to be stronger! Try to use some of that caring on yourself and imaging yourself as the person who needs to be protected here.

Unfortunately, your mother has created this situation through her abuse of others. I don't doubt that something like a fall is going to trigger this whole process and while that's really unfortunate, it is her doing. If she didn't abuse people, she would have family around to help.

Best of luck to you.

[daughter]

I don't understand why you need to "be there" for a hospital admission (to ER), whether she gets there by private vehicle or summoned ambulance.  If she is hospitalized, you've no obligation to check her out, pay for services rendered, or bring her home to your home or hers.  If contacted by hospital staff and/or social workers, your steadfast response is " I'm sorry, but I can't/won't take responsibility for her, nor take custody of her". No one can "make you do it".  Nor in this situation should you feel guilted into doing so.

I recommend reading old posts on this topic on Mike Gamble's elder care blog forum site (google mike gamble elder care forum to get link). I remember lots of posts from folks in same situation, with lots of detailed pragmatic advice and good counsel. Best wishes.

[WomanInterrupted]

Daughter, we have "Granny Drop" in the US, but we call it, "Convince mom or dad to go to the ER for a minor problem, so we can have them assessed - and leave them in a safe environment."   

That's why you have to be there - because you're the one doing the convincing, and probably the driving.

When you're trying to convince somebody to go to the ER, it's better to say, "Oh...I don't like the look of that...it looks like it's getting infected/that cough sounds TERRIBLE/visual exaggeration of any symptom - than, say, over the phone, "That sounds serious - you should go to the ER." 

As the old saying goes, seeing is believing.      

Usually, in the US, it's reserved for burned-out caregivers, who realize their elderly charge's problems are MORE than they can handle, or are getting progressively worse, and the caregivers (adult children) feel a nursing home would be a more suitable environment for their elderly parent(s) and they can *refuse* to take the elderly patient home again.

Unless somebody is *really* bad off, mentally, they probably won't placed in a nursing home immediately - but it gets the ball rolling on having competency exams done on a regular basis, so the person doesn't fall through the cracks.   

People who have *normal* parents probably don't have a hard time convincing mom or dad to go to the ER - but people like us have a HELL of a time, because they don't believe us, think we're lying, think we're out to steal their money, think all kinds of crazy, PD thoughts, that all boil down to, "I am NOT going into a nursing home, for any reason!"

It sounds like in Australia, just like here, if somebody is taken to the hospital by ambulance, and we're notified (and are the Health Care Proxy, in the US), we can get the ball rolling over the phone - which is what I did with unNPD Ray.   

Maybe he didn't think he was slipping, but I'd been seeing it for *decades.*

I didn't have to be there, because he was already in the hospital for a heart attack he'll swear he didn't have.

But if I had to get him there myself?

Oh, HELL no!   

I wasn't going anywhere near that man, because he was already starting to show signs of wanting to slap or punch me, and was accusing me of theft, when I hadn't been over in about 6-9 months! 

Once he was on the radar, I backed off even more - ELC - and let the professionals handle it.   

If Whole Hearted's mom is threatening elder abuse - somebody will have to figure out another way to get the mom to the ER, that doesn't involve Whole Hearted or her B - or everybody will just have to wait it out until an ambulance is called, for any reason, and hope she doesn't refuse medical treatment.

Usually, the system works - but it doesn't take into account people like us, who really don't want anything to do with their disordered parents and have many good reasons for not taking them to the ER, ourselves.

[Kiki81]

I just retired from working at a famed hospital, including the ED, and may I reassure those who might not be sure:

When a patient is brought in, we are capable of interviewing and triaging patient without your presence.

We will evaluate them without your presence.

We can treat them without your presence.

We can discharge them to hospital social services. (And if you are there with them, we discharge them in your care.)

There is some crazy fallacy that our elderly relatives simply MUST have us at the bedside.

IT'S NOT TRUE. HOSPITALS ARE EQUIPPED TO SEE AND TREAT PATIENTS WHO PRESENT ALONE.

Honest.

[StayWithMe]

she's still creating havoc and won't agree to the slightest thing that might alleviate her situation.

She probably disagrees solely out of an innate to be passive-aggressive.

[biggerfish]

"Staying out of it, isn't managing my cptsd reactions very well. I'm naturally an organised, caring, capable person who, when confronted with a problem, brings energy and commitment to resolve. I'm feeling triggered and constantly on edge; holding back on my natural response isn't natural, yet the thought of having anything to do with this, sends me into an anxiety state."

whole hearted, we are kindred spirits. What I did in a similar situation was to direct my organization, caring, and capabilities elsewhere. Find another project to immerse yourself in. Let others have the joy of dealing with your mother.

And surround yourself with emotionally healthy people. I've heard this expression: "Find your tribe."

[GentleSoul]

Thanks for this thread and the generous shares.  It helped me to read it today.

Great to have it clearly stated what my responsibilities are in care giving.