Hi, I just need to vent...

[betta fish]

Hello everyone,

Everything in my life is great, except when dealing with my unBPDmom. I have been NC with my uBPDmom for over two years and I am so much better for it.  The thing is my mother is taking my DH andI to court for visitation with my children.  This has been going on for over two years.  Litigation is long and expensive.  Some might remember my story.  Here is the recap: When my then 13 year old told me my own mother told her I was a bad person and she needed to protect herself from me and more alienating things, I was thrown for a loop and angry, I couldn't speak to my unBPDmother.  I told her I didn't want any contact and I would call when I was ready. I needed time to process. well 17 days later the lawyer papers came, delivered by a process server.  We have been in litigation since.  My husband and I refuse to let her have the kids for a sleep over, we agreed to phone calls and supervised visits.  Unfortunately where I live the law is very strict and taking visitation rights away from a grand-parent is nearly impossible.  It is as difficult as taking a grand parent's rights as taking away parental rights.  We are now in litigation and I am scared a judge will give her the right to have my children for sleep overs.  We needed months of family therapy to undo the harm of my mother's accusations and alienation she caused between my daughter and the rest of the family.  Despite our family therapy, a judge could say since all is now resolved for our family, she should get the chance to have a relationship with my children.

Now our trial date is approaching and all the bad horrible feelings I worked had to work through are coming back.  Having to tell my story to my lawyer all over again and having to go to court in a few weeks retelling it all is horrible.  She has mastered the role of the sweet poor grandmother who is terrorized by her mean egotostical daughter.  My story gets lost in all her tears and theatrics.  I hope I get an experienced judge who sees through all the BS.  Sometimes the fear of losing my relationships with my children is so intense I have panic attacks.  I hate that the law presumes a grand parent to be good for grand children regadless of what stable loving parents say.  It makes me feel sad and angry, but mostly powerless.  All is in the hand of a judge that will get a little glimpse into our lives to decide our fate.  It could go our way or not, and the not is what scares me.  At least we have the family therapist who can say we consulted regarding issues with the grand mother.  What an absolute waste of our time and funds.  We know her manipulation and how she makes herself a vistim to illicit sympathy and guilt.  I needed years of therapy to understand that I was psychologically and emotionally abused as a child.  I almost chose a path with no children because I feared being like my mother.  The guilt and fear instilled in me was overwhelming.  It took my daughter being affected to finally cut the cord.  Her continued abuse of me was somehow OK (since I thought, I can handle it!). Until I say my daughter's distress, I had Not understood how terribly the abuse had been a destructive force in my life. I refuse to continue this legacy of abuse.  I don't want it to go on another generation.  I am just very sad and tired, I need this fight to end. I hope a judge will see it my way and order limited visitations, a few supervised hours once every 4 to 6 weeks maximum and monitored phone calls.  That is what we want.  Thanks for reading.   

[appaloosa]

Your story is horrifying. Where do you live? I had no idea that laws like this even existed. I'm crossing my fingers that the verdict is in your favor--maybe even NO visits, if that's a possibility. (hugs)

[Starboard Song]

We all understand that you may be uncomfortable disclosing the jurisdiction you live in. But it is truly scary to think of a place where so many more people have a protected interest in the child, all balanced and weighted by a government official.

I am so sorry you are have to battle this, and I am so glad you have this safe place to vent.

[betta fish]

Without saying where I live it is becoming more and more common for grand-parents to have rights.  In some countries in Europe, Canada and some USA states are passing laws to help grand-parents have visitations rights and pushing for laws giving grand-parents a special right to access their grand children.  I was horrified with the law, I did not think grand parent's rights were the exception to parental rights.  As the law stands we must prove that my unBPDmother is unfit to visit our children, not her to prove she is fit. Which puts the burden of proof on the parents, not the grand-parents.  With no Diagnosis of  personality Disorder, we have little to prove she is unfit.

I researched the laws well and discovered horrible stories from around the world. There was a case a few years ago in British Columbia, the parents did not want grand-parents to indoctrinate their children in their religion, the parents had a different faith.  They lost at lower courts and had to send their children weekends, knowing their children were vigorously taught another religion.  It went all the way to the supreme court, before a judge finally recognised, religion is a parental choice and won.  In France they have horrible stories of toxic grand-parents claiming their rights. 

It is a power struggle.  My "mother" has told everyone in my family that she will not stop until I invite her back in my home again.  It isn't even about my children.  She cannot accept that I refuse to have contact with her.  The only thing I hope for now is that she brings us to court so often a judge will say, enough is enough.  Which does happen.

Thanks for all your support. I'll update, but our case might be pushed back again, so who knows. I thought it would be settled long ago.

[Rose1]

Since parental alienation by an ex can be cause for supervised visitation, how would the same thing in grandparents be treated. I would think it difficult to call what she said anything but severe parental alienation, especially since you had to seek therapy.
Could this count as proof?
And once the court case has gone through is there any way you could be prevented from moving like other normal people, for work for example? It might pay to make sure with your lawyer that you end up having the same rights as parents to move, holiday etc without having toto inform the court because that can happen in cases of child visitation with a parent.
What a horrible law. Moving sounds awesome

[11JB68]

As someone who went nc with my foo, esp uPDm, when my ds was about 5 yo, this is horrifying to me. At the time I had no idea whether laws like this existed where I am and I was fearful that uPDm would try something like this... It makes no sense to me...hopingfor a good outcome for you and your foc

[Kiki81]

I am so sorry you are going through this. You're doing the right thing, protecting your children.

I live in the US and in my state, grandparents have no 'rights.' 

[Absent Minded Artist]

Could you try writing a letter to the judge? Maybe get something in writing from your therapist as well? That way her theatrics can only do so much to siderail the hearing.

[betta fish]

Thank you all for your support.  This law sucks, but yes our therapist will be a witness.  our Point of view is that we are willing to give some visitations, but we are 100% against sleep overs.  It is very unlikely she will get no visitations.  Our argument against sleepovers is that our DD says the inappropriate conversations happened mostly on longer visits.  We want our two youngest to visit together, to have support. We want to limit the risk of further alienation and decrease our chances of having to go to family therapy again.  So hopefully we will get a judge to see we are being reasonable.

As for moving, grand-parents cannot prevent us from moving.  Can you image if they could prevent relocation?  Having to refuse a good job opportunity because a grand-parent would miss their grand children?  Giving grand-parents the power to control where we live, work...  That would be so outrageous, I can't even imagine.   We are considering a move, but haven't yet decided. 


The law is very strict and it would take a familial evaluation to prove alienation.  It is very expensive and risky.  If we have get a therapist who is not specialized in PDs we could get a report back saying, we the parents, are  causing alienation against the grandmother.  So many family members are still on her side and were never witnesses to the psychological abuse.  She is a pro at playing the poor victim, not every therapist sees it or it takes a while to start seeing the patterns and her odd inner dialogue. 


The law for grand-parental rights started to help grand-parents to get access to their grand-children in two heart breaking scenarios:

1) Children put in foster care, since the grand-parents are unable to be gardians due to illness or small appartements...  It was very sad to see them lose all rights to see them.

2) a death or divorce occurs and the grand-parents cannot see their grand-children, due to the parent having custody refusing with no real motive.


Unfortunately, they forgot to give rights to parents to decide the when, where and how long the visits could be.  Our laws do not give the parents the right to limit contact.  Only a judge can decide the actual visitation schedule if the parents and grand-parent cannot arrive at an understanding. So that is what brings us to court.  She want one phone call a week. She also wants to have one weekend a month, plus one day on the week-end a month (that means she gets two WE per month with access).  Here is the real kicker: She spends 6 months a year at her sister's home, which is too far for visits, so she want to be able to postpone  all missed visits to the six months she is close by, so for six months out of the year, she would get my children every weekends!!    She also wants visits at x-mas, new years, birthdays (the children's and her onw b-day) and visits on all holidays and finally 2 weeks in the summer. And we, of course, must re-schedule all missed B-days, holidays... That is so completely ridiculous. I have no words.

Well, we will see how it goes, our lawyer says she will not get what she is asking for.  All I care about is no sleepovers!

[overitall]

Your uBPDm seems to be confused about her role....she is not the parent and is asking for visitation/access equal to those of a parent...when my daughter (now an adult) was a teenager, my uBPDm started to smear me to my daughter....the typically teenage rebellion by my daughter was tainted by my mother convincing her that most of her problems were because "it must be horrible to have Overitall as your mother."  Yep, she damaged my relationship...for a while....I know it's hard for you right now, but as your daughter gets older, she WILL she the inappropriateness of your mom's actions....it's a matter of control for your mom...she will eventually get into a power contest with your daughter, as well...

PD's don't understand/respect boundaries...what seems acceptable to them, is outrageous for most people....PD's don't usually fare well when they are exposed...I don't think she will come out of this situation in a positive light....If, in the unlikeliness that she wins, I would move...as far away as possible...

I have been NC for over 8 years and it is the BEST thing I ever did for myself and my family...By the way, all of my adult children have ZERO to do with my uBPDm....it will get better, I promise

[Rose1]

One thing I found with my exbpdh and his ubpdm was that it was for show and face saving. It certainly wasn't for any hard work. Kids can be hard work. Sometimes on weekends they can be very hard work, needing to be taken to ballet, music etc etc.  I wonder how they would cope with all that? I wonder if the judge would consider your mother's demands as superior to a child's extra curricular activities? Every weekend. Food for thought.
Also I would put it to the court that if they were so interested in being in the children's lives then they wouldn't go off for 6 months a year and no make up time. She's not the parent.

[blacksheep7]

I'm sorry that you are living this nightmare.

your quote:   She also wants visits at x-mas, new years, birthdays (the children's and her onw b-day) and visits on all holidays and finally 2 weeks in the summer. And we, of course, must re-schedule all missed B-days, holidays... That is so completely ridiculous. I have no words.

Plain ridiculous, these demands are similar as a divorce would be with the other parent but a g-parent??? :