codependency as a subtype of narcissism

[boots40]

Please could people share their experiences of codependency within narcissistic relationships (notably when both people display N traits).  The subject confuses me and I would like to get to grips with how these relationships are shaped

This is what I have observed but not sure whether it is typical or not of a co-dependent

Unable to cut the apron strings, needing to live very close
Have a love/hate, can't live with/can't live without partnership
Mutual flattery that goes beyond reality and into absolute delusions
One needing excessive praise and recognition for what they do for the other, both within the relationship and from those on the periphery (martyr)
Complaining about how much they do and yet at the same time become resentful of anyone else attempts to offer assistance
The other overly advertising how 'perfect' the relationship is (without matching reality)
Feeding each other toxic information about others on the periphery - essentially winding each other up over trivialities until one acts out with anger.  They are the opposite of reassurance and calm that you would expect from close, harmonious relationships
Mimicking each other; clothing, use of language, home decoration, food preferences
One complaining about the other but does nothing about the situation which could be easily resolved
When either one gets minor illnesses each overreact as though it is life threatening and the end of the world (headaches, indigestion, backache etc)
One appears to be grooming another family member in preparation of the other dying (i.e putting them in a position to be dependent)


Are these traits familiar to anyone? Do these appear to be typical co-dependent of two narcissistic co-dependents? (Not asking for a diagnosis, but are they traits of..?)

[Poison Ivy]

Some of the behaviors you mention are very characteristic of my ex-husband's relationship with his father, for whom my ex-husband is primary caregiver.  If I had to put a diagnosis on them, I would say his dad has NPD and that my ex-husband has dependent or avoidant personality disorder (along with other disorders, such as anxiety, depression, and ADHD). The caregiving situation is bad and probably only getting worse, but my ex walked willingly into it despite me raising red flags. On the rare occasions that we talk (he doesn't communicate with me much), he complains and seems very depressed (understandably) but is very resistant to any suggestions I make for reducing the time he spends with his dad and mom, who is also very ill.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Sounds like you are describing the inverted Narcissist dynamic. This is my uPDparents. My dad fits with the classic psychopathic N, my mother the inverted N who needs to be needed by another N. It's some freaky stuff. Here's an overview:

https://www.healthyplace.com/personality-disorders/malignant-self-love/the-inverted-narcissist

[practical]

I don't know whether it is a subtype, my parents both had NPD traits and they were also codependent and as I call it coabusive. It was like they were on a seesaw, one time M was "up" and the abuser and F the victim, and then it would be the other way around. They also showed fixer syndrome traits, which didn't keep them from being abusive to the person they tried to rescue, often each other. It was such a tangled mess, and yes they couldn't live with each other, made each others lives miserable, but they also couldn't live without each other.

Much of what you write sounds familiar. F trying to keep M calm by enabling her, being extra nice to her, but then again trying to impose his will on her. M trying to do something nice for him, without understanding who he is, so it usually went colossal wrong and end in a fight.

Just bizarre, crazy, toxic as I learned over the years, and totally unfixable, because at least my parents didn't want this to be fixed, - despite asking me countless times to rescue them, that was more an invitation to participate in their drama, to have an extra player -. Somehow this kind of relationship was a kind of drug for them, they needed it, and like any form of dependency it brought lots of unhappiness and destruction to them and the people around them.

[clara]

Co-dependents seem to have a poorly defined sense of self, same as a narc, so it's possible for them to share similar traits.  I've always viewed co-dependent relationships as ones where people find a self-definition through the other person as well as rely on the other person to take the blame for what are actually their own faults.  They use each other as sources of supply.

[NotFooled]

sounds allot like a couple I use to know.  The wife was  uNPD but I was to told she was bipolar and the husband was diagnosed with autism but had allot of NPD traits.   They had a sexless marriage and the H would make a scene in public places when they were hanging out with co-workers or casual friends.    He refused to split up with her because "he didn't cut and run" basically playing the martyr.  They are so dysfunctional they were even kicked out of a marriage counselors office and told not to come back.

[P&K]

As I understand it, codependents focus on everyone and their needs/problems instead of themselves whereas an N is preoccupied with themselves and their needs. 

https://youtu.be/wbgHUIsqcOU

This person’s YouTube channel has been very helpful for me to process things. You may want to skip over the first 5 min or so but she makes some very good points.

[1footouttadefog]

My understanding and the models that work for my are as such.  I dont claim they are clinically or technically correct but rather my version of pop psychology.

Narc, I think we have that definition well covered here. 

Types of Narcs, grandiose, psychopath, sociopath, covert.

Types of partners,
NONS who get tricked then leave when the mask slips.

NONS who are caretaker types who are tricked for longer then leave.  They get some supply and self worth for caretaking in generak.

Inverted Narcs, caretakers who are covert Narc supply seekers, or who are caretskers who are addicted to validation and supply from Narcs.  These will be serially victims to Narcs or stay for the long haul in an abusive relationship.

Covert Narcs can pass as a caretaker as they get supply from caretaking and looming like Mr or Mrs nice guy, and appearing to be a victim.

Sociopath are cluster b people on the more extreme end of the narcissism spectrum with their lack of empathy etc.

Covert Narcs can also seem like and be confused with BPD.


I have come to terms with the idea that they diagnoses are not important but identifying the forms of abuse they engage in is.

What matters is the abuse and reducing or eliminating it or leaving it.  Getting to know the words for and itemizing the abuses  so the tools can be employed against them and boundaries can be put in place is what we as non professionals can do to change our personal situations.

[Wilderhearts]

Sounds like you are describing the inverted Narcissist dynamic. This is my uPDparents. My dad fits with the classic psychopathic N, my mother the inverted N who needs to be needed by another N. It's some freaky stuff. Here's an overview:

https://www.healthyplace.com/personality-disorders/malignant-self-love/the-inverted-narcissist

This is an amazing resource - thanks.

[candy]

Wanted to come back to this thread the whole time as much of what you describe sounds like you've been visiting my ILs.
If this was a check list, I'd check everything except the grooming of another family member.

I've never understood how the ILs truly worked as a couple as they seem to have very little in common. At first I thought FIL was a classic enabler, fulfilling NPDMIL's every need to be off the hook, or guilting DH into doing it. But then I spotted some N traits regarding FIL himself and today I believe they are both toxic NPD.

Their biographies both offer superficially enough to develop a PD with FIL not having a female or motherly figure. FIL now depends on MIL concerning questions of parenting and social skills, in a nutshell everything that includes people. MILs social skills are in fact crappy, but FIL has no reference value.
FIL on the other hand provides their households income.

MIL is clearly NPD, she is all about herself and status. She is talking nonstop, bragging about vacation and special or grandiose people they know. She belittles others, gives unsolicited advice and just knows best. She also brags about how perfect her marriage with FIL is. FIL accompanies her bragging with silence.
FIL brags about his job and how great of a sportsman he's been when he was younger. It's been decades since then and to me it's a little ridiculous. Especially since he never acknowledges anything his children achieve.

MIL praises FIL way beyond reality; I don't know if she flatters him when they are alone. If I had to make a guess, I'd say they both need an audience. It's killing two birds with one stone: he gets supply in being praised, she probably thinks she is more adorable if that wonderful praised man is with her. It is very odd.
The things she praises him for are how successful he is at work (from the outside you'd say he is a regular guy within his career) and how well he does at his hobbies. She would tell you how great of a dogtrainer he was when that peticular dog just stole dinner from the kitchen - and it's not mockery, it's delusional.

Between the two she uses to be the martyr. She doesn't get tired of telling how much she sacrificed her own needs / career and so on to be a wife and a mother. All men within the family have to praise her and celebrate her for her ostensible nurturing qualities. The adult children shall be thankful for having been born. She still tells her birth stories at every gathering with friends and family, even if a mother of a newborn is present. She'll brush the other mother off to get all the attention. FIL does not comment on this. But I have seen her silencing him with big tears over her sacrifices as a mother. Her other health issues are also used as proof  of her sacrifices towards husband and children (you know, allergies, the kind of illnesses that your kids imposed on you?!). I am NC with them at present. But during all those years I had contact I cannot remind one single occasion MIL wasn't ,,reminding" her relatives about her martyrdom.

Winding each other up - yes, yes, yes! They have a history of break ups with friends. They discard even close friends or their own child. In those scenarios MIL is the victim whereas everyone else is doing her wrong. FIL goes along. I don't understand whether he just doesn't care about the social contacts they sacrifice or whether he believes MIL or is just afraid of opposing her. Maybe there is something in it for the both of them? Maybe it is easier to transfigure themselves to an idealized version if they devalue others?

I followed CallMeCordelia's link and now I think at the end it doesn't matter if they have discarded everyone around them as long as one N provides enough supply for the other and vice versa. I used to think my ILs were just very special odd. But I recognize their oddness to be a thing, to follow a pattern.
Some freaky stuff, that's it.