The art of non-apology

[candy]

I am dealing with different settings.

A) I have the NPD who wants to sweep his abuse under the rug. After an extended ST the NPD has now declared he wants to reconcile without addressing ,,the past". In this setting I am seen as an extension of my DH and my NPD-ILs expect us to do as the NPD-IL wants.

There isn't even a thought about an apology. You know, the thing a healthy personality would understand as a basic condition for reconciliation .... one thinks about the own ugly behavior and asks the other person's forgiveness. You promise to change and for the next couple of weeks or month or [whatever period of time is appropriate] you show that you can really do better. You wait until the other person is able to trust you again before you even consider having demands yourself.

The NPD has not initiated contact with me directly. I am expected to walk along. Nobody is perfect but this is so very far away from what a decent person would understand as acceptable behavior in a relationship, isn't it? Facing a whole IL-family that works like a cult around the NPD(s), I sometimes feel like the crazy one.

B) Following his abuse the PD has slowed down and shows some remorse. There has not been an apology either!
There have been attempts to invite me over for dinner . There have been little favors done, like moving my car when I couldn't leave the home. Leaving flowers on my doorstep. The PD is making amends, mostly such that evolve around food, but again, no ,,I am sorry.", no asking for forgiveness. Like a kid who shows that he knows how to behaves.

I understand this is cult-like as well, assuming the PD does certain things to make amends. WTH do I know about the PD's Intentions? I do have to tell myself, hey, Candy, no way your world is evolving around your PDparent, stop it!

How does your PD's non-apologize look like?

[clara]

The fly in the ointment, Candy, is you can't really expect someone to apologize when they feel they've really done nothing wrong!  This seems especially true with NPDs.  What they react to isn't how you feel, but what they need to do to keep control of the relationship.  They express their version of an apology because they know it's expected of them, but their only real concern is how to keep you around.  How you feel as an individual isn't important, what's important is how you feel about them.

That's why their apologies really aren't.  Sometimes I think there's no point in even expecting them to apologize, or show true remorse, or any of the other behaviors that make healthy relationships work.  If anything, they expect you to accept their "flaws" (your term, not theirs)  without any expectation that they need to change because...they won't change!     

[coyote]

Only recently has my uPPDw actually offered apologies. Before there was no acknowledgement of any wrong doing. I ignored a lot of bad behavior and just did not bring it up afterwards. Pick my battles kind of thing. 

[countrygirl]

Hi Candy,

I am sorry that you are dealing with this.  After reading Clara's explanation, I can't think of anything to add.  They really don't think they ever do anything wrong, and anything they do to try to repair the relationship is based upon trying to keep you. 

The main NPD in my life used to do her version of the non-apology apology.  On the rare occasion when she apologized, she would then immediately tell me what I had done to make her behave badly!  Ha,ha.

Once I was amazed when she called to apologize, after a day of particularly bad behavior.  But she started out by saying SHE'D been so upset that she'd nearly wrecked her car driving home.  So it was all really about her being upset.  And then, sure enough, she said she'd been upset because I hadn't invited her on a trip--a trip which I NEVER took, as she knew!   

I still try to understand PDs as if they weren't PDs.  Doesn't work.  If they thought and behaved like normal people, they wouldn't be PDs.   

[candy]

Oh, I am struggling with this. I hear you, clara and countrygirl, NPDs do not react to my feelings, to me as a individual, but to the things / emotions / praise / supply I provide for them. And I hear T saying: you may only change yourself, not others.

I think they, the NPDs in my life for sure and BP(2)PDF also, know exactly what they are doing. IME they know that they are hurting people, they just do not care. Like you say, they care about them, if it is at all about others, it is about keeping those others around.

BP(2)PD told me once he was not gonna apologize to his wife despite he knew he had misbehaved terribly, because saying Sorry would need him to think about his misbehavior again. He said he did not want to remember being bad. I answered his wife wouldn't know he was sorry as she was not able to read his mind. He said ain't it a pity people can't do that, read my mind...?

I do not and will probably never understand what is in it for them, what the good part of hurting others is. Control? Power? Amusement? Feeling superior in putting others down?
I will be okay if I do not find out, I don't have to understand.

The part I am struggling with is how do I hold the PD accountable if I conceive the inability to apologize as part of the disorder?
It feels like letting them off the hook.

Why should I, as a Non-PD, adjust my expectations (as in I am reasonably expecting an apology) to the counterpart who is not willing or capable of meeting my expectations?

[coyote]

Candy IMO you answer the question, "Why should I, as a Non-PD, adjust my expectations (as in I am reasonably expecting an apology) to the counterpart who is not willing or capable of meeting my expectations?"

Why would we expect an apology from someone unwilling or unable to do so. Again IMHO we set ourselves up for disappointment and hurt when we do so.

The other question of "how do I hold the PD accountable if I conceive the inability to apologize as part of the disorder?" As we have found out here we can only control our responses. We have no control at all on any part of any other person. So if we have no control over them how can we hold them accountable?

What works for me is neither expecting anything from others or having anyone have any accountability to me. I can only be hurt if I allow someone to hurt me. To not allow someone to hurt me requires me to have strong Boundaries and enforce them with logical, consistent consequences when boundaries are violated.

Again this is just what works for me, but it is all about my attitude and how I choose to respond. It has nothing to do with the other person's response, whether it be they are unable or unwilling to respond according to convention.

[candy]

Coyote, you have a good point in how we are setting ourselves up for disappointment and hurt. I have not looked at it this way before.

I am not trying to control them or in general the PDs (or Nons), but I do understand how you can read my words like this. I am raising a child in this world and I want it to be a good place to grow up.

For the tiny toddler human DH and I are the world. Our interactions with other people count. We shall be kind, good, decent, be role models. If we fail, if we make mistakes, if I was wrong or hurtful, I show the kid how to apologize, how to make amends, how to ask for forgiveness.

The extended world is people, and right now my world is swamped with all those toxic ones, mostly parents or ILs, the kid's grandparents, but aunts and uncles as well, extended family. 3 out of 4 grandparents are not what you would call a fit. Surrounding the tiny human with good people is difficult within our FOOs.

I do not want our little one to learn that the one who behaves the worst, e.g. creates drama, gets all the attention. I do not want DD to see that it is ok to ignore / belittle / bully / yell at / insult / and so on her mum and dad. I do not want her to watch that kind of abusive behavior for many years. As long as she is little, I may shape the world she lives in.

You asked how we can hold someone accountable if we have no control over them. I would like to answer that question with another: ain't that how society works?

I am working hard on my personal response, you are right, it is the thing I can control. I am working on boundaries, mine, the ones we have as a nuclear family.

But I guess I want my child to grow up differently than her dad and me. I want her to know that it is ethical and reasonable to expect grownups to apologize if they have done something wrong. That you can expect good things from other people. I want her to know that you can trust people, rely on others. I truly hope this is a healthy perspective.

I really appreciate you telling what works for you, and I do not mean to offend you. With my F I do the same, I try to not expect anything. Just sometimes I wonder if I am broken here, defective like a bird with trimmed feathers. Shouldn't children expect everything from their parents, shouldn't they trust and rely on, be loved unconditionally? How does it feel to expect everything possible?
And shouldn't adults expect other adults to behave and to apologize genuinely if they misbehaved?

It is two different aspects: 1) how do I protect myself or my FOC from the harm a non-apology inflicts, 2) does it change my ,,world", do I violate my boundaries if I lower my standard of expectations for my particular PDs.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Candy, what you wrote really reasonated with me. My children also have all uPD grandparents. My solution was NC with the whole sorry lot of them.

NC is a CONSEQUENCE of repeated abuse, blaming me when they ought to be the ones to apologize. Yes, it is reasonable to expect apologies and restitution. It's how reconciliation works. If the party in the wrong refuses to reconcile, we'll then you won't be reconciled. It's not up to you to pretend it never happened or whatever the pwpd want you to do. If it means estrangement, we'll then that is an example of good boundaries and self-respect for your little one. The PD gets to reap the consequence of their behavior. That's holding them accountable.

Maybe you won't go NC, but the same principle needs to apply. Remember the Clean Up Rule.

And finally, if you want your little one to grow up being able to trust people, it's your job to surround her with trustworthy people! Find the good people. I'm finding there are so many more of them than I ever thought possible growing up. Invest in those relationships the energy you used to spend keeping your pwpd happy.

That's some of what I've learned, and it's making our family life so much better. I wish you all the happiness you deserve!

[candy]

Thank you for untangling, Cordelia!

Sure, we did not start NC out of the blue and now it is on us to reconcile. You are very wise pointing out that NC or otherwise limited contact/ limited information is a consequence. Yes!
This consequence is a way of holding them accountable. Again, love how you put those things in perspective. It actually helps a lot.

I am NC with MIL and FIL, DH is VLC with my ILs. We are LC with GCBIL and his fiancé. There is a major family party lying ahead. DH feels obligated to take part, whereas I am thinking about my options. It is astonishing for me how the ones who refuse to apologize try to put the ball in our court. We are learning to ignore that ball.

[NotFooled]

I think one of my PD  friends puts heart status on my FB status' about my health issues.  No apology for how crappy he's treated me and DH over the years, no phone calls to either me or DH to check on us or see if there is something he can do.   Just hearts


Fortunately there are only a couple of PD's left in my life and I rarely see them. 

[cookiecat]

@Kieveen

You just hit on one of my biggest pet peeves of late.  People who's online identity DO NOT match their "in real life" identity.   I've had many  struggles with this lately, just seeing the hypocrisy of some people.  An ex-friend would treat me like her on-call therapist because "she was a very private person" and liked only talking to me about her problems...and yet would post these ridiculous attention seeking FB status' about things that were private.   When she wasn't getting enough attention from me or her few other friends,  she would need to post something to get attention, and of course it worked!  People feel good commenting and it's low effort, meanwhile I'm driving her all over town (she can no longer drive) and being her therapist (a job I did not want but my codependent traits attracted).  Idk, FB seems like a land of phoniness to me, I do not regret deactivating my acccount at all.

[LemonLime]

 How does my uBPD sibling apologize?

Gives me gifts out of the blue.   Is sicky-sweet nice to me.

Then, when I reinforce the boundary that I set, they freak out and attack me verbally.

Then, they tell everyone that I have "refused their apology", when they never even apologized.   They lie and tell people that I "rebuffed their hug" at a holiday party.  They make themselves into the Victim in the Drama Triangle.

This relative of mine is most comfortable in Victim mode, with occassional dalliances with Persecutor and Rescuer.   Super-fun.

[Jade63]

BP(2)PD told me once he was not gonna apologize to his wife despite he knew he had misbehaved terribly, because saying Sorry would need him to think about his misbehavior again. He said he did not want to remember being bad. I answered his wife wouldn't know he was sorry as she was not able to read his mind. He said ain't it a pity people can't do that, read my mind...?

I do not and will probably never understand what is in it for them, what the good part of hurting others is. Control? Power? Amusement? Feeling superior in putting others down?

I think you answered your own question.
What's in it for them?  Not looking at themselves.
Resisting self-awareness can be a very powerful motivator for some people.

~Jade

[countrygirl]

Jade,

I think you're spot-on accurate about PDs, especially Ns, resisting self-awareness.   I was just thinking about this, and every NPD I've ever known, including my FOO, lacked self-awareness.  This is why it's necessary for them to scapegoat others. 

[candy]

Jade63 and Countrygirl,
I used to think that scapegoating was a sort of projection, a defense mechanism.
But resisting self-awareness, like you put it, seems to be more conscious. A deliberate act. Despite it may not be true for every form of projection, I agree it may apply for scapegoating in particular. Pick one and peck, peck, peck.

And of course, the anecdote I mentioned is all about actively resisting self awareness.
In general I would assume defense mechanisms like projection or denial are unconscious, non-deliberate. But the more akward non-apologies I read about here, I doubt that no one knows what they are doing...

Kieveen, be it hearts on social media or gifts out of the blue like Kat1984 got them - I keep wondering, our PDs, can't they use their hearts and gifts as an enhancement to their apology instead of replacing the apology? It would be a question of style then, not a question of decency.

Kat1984, the ,,you refused my apology" act sounds like the ,,I apologized a hundred times" act I experience a lot. When there has never been one word, nor hundred. IME the next thing that follows the statement that someone refused their apology is how resentful and overly sensitive that person is.

Concerning my PDs it is true that if they can't play the victim of other people (or me), they will probably be a victim of circumstance.
It is hard to remind oneself over and over again that the apology we are deprived of only reflects our counterpart being always right and never wrong.

[Thru the Rain]

...They make themselves into the Victim in the Drama Triangle.

This relative of mine is most comfortable in Victim mode, with occassional dalliances with Persecutor and Rescuer.   Super-fun.

candy - I want to suggest you may want to read up on the Drama Triangle that Kat1984 referred to. Also called the Karpman Drama Triangle.

It has explained so many of my interactions with PDs. And once you see the Drama Triangle in action, you can't unsee it.

The best advice I've read for breaking free of the Drama Triangle is to just step back and observe. Don't fall into your "assigned role". I have used the observer role with some very drama prone people in my life and it has often taken the wind right out of their sails.

Here are some links to sites that helped me understand this behavior dynamic:
https://lindagraham-mft.net/triangle-victim-rescuer-persecutor-get/
https://www.lynneforrest.com/articles/2008/06/the-faces-of-victim/

[candy]

Thank you for those very good links, Thru the Rain!

I have already been looking up the Drama Triangle and happened to stumble upon Linda Graham myself. Your other link is already open on my screen 

I did research the Triangle weeks ago after reading about it here but didn't find something as well comprehensible. Back then I just thought it was too abstract to follow. Turns out it isn't. This may really help.