Parental Alienation Questions

[atticusfinch]

Hello all,

I was wondering what (in your experience) the courts and evaluators need in order to prove parental alienation? And is there anything they'll even do about it, even if they find it is happening?

My ex has been alienating the kids for five years. They come home from his house and are critical of things kids wouldn't normally be critical of, like if I'm wearing make-up and whether the pantry is organized or whether I cook meals from scratch.

They are a) parroting things he said or used to say without seeming to realize what those things mean. B) Much more disrespectful and entitled than they were before. C) They act like I don't exist when he's around-- like-- at a soccer game on his time, not a single one of my five kids would look at me, even though I tried to wave to them multiple times. When the game was over, they got up and left without so much as batting an eye in my direction... AND THEY ADMITTED LATER THEY SAW ME but were afraid to show it. (it seems SUPER OBVIOUS to me that this is messed up-- when I have the kids, I always encourage them to go say hi to him and give him a hug, as it seems like the nice thing to do) D) they try to teach me how to parent ("like their dad"). 

I feel that the alienation has made them much more entitled and disrespectful than they used to be. For example, my ex puts up a big fuss about what types of clothes or shoes I send with the kids, sometimes sending them back in multiple times because he says their coat or shoes aren't "sufficient." He was always obsessed with money when we were married, and now I believe he is constantly putting in the kids' heads that they need more of this or that, that he pays me (insert amount) per month and therefore I should be constantly buying them new clothes, and if I say no, then I am being unreasonable.

There have been many times my kids' drawers are stuffed with clothes that fit them, but they'll say "nothing fits." There have been times I've thought about texting him a photo, but, knowing him, that won't help.

So... some of you know he just filed for sole legal custody. I'm not sure if we'll end up having another custody evaluation, but in our first evaluation (3 years ago), the evaluator did not find alienation. To me, this seems crazy, though it was much earlier in the divorce process. I am 100% positive he alienates them in both egregious and subtle ways, but it's frustrating that a professional may not see it.

I just wanted others' opinions. This SOUNDS like alienation, right? My ASPD ex is just really good at being covert about it.

[Associate of Daniel]

Atticus, we appear to have the same exes!

And we seem to be in the same boat re our exes filing for custody.

We're heading to a psychologist in a few weeks to get a family report ready for court.

It's hard to know what to bring up as there is limited time in the session. And how do you condense 20 years  of passive agressive abuse into 1 hour?

Too, the pds are likely on their best behaviour because of the upcoming assessment.

Many of their Parental Alienation tactics are behavioual so no-one can do anything.  Eg: criticising you to the kids.   As my solicitor says, the courts can't make anyone behave.

But other stuff, like the ex not informing us of things and then telling us off for not attending to them - perhaps that's the stuff we can bring up to the powers that be.

I feel for you re the soccar.  I've been there/am there with ds and his sport.

He becomes a completely different person towards me at those times and it breaks my heart.

And each time I pick him up from his uNPD dad's place he's critical of me, telling me I should do x - often when I'm already doing x. Eg:  giving him healthy meals etc.

It takes a day or so for him to return to his normal beautiful self and relax.

I don't think I'm much help. But I'm right there with you.

AOD

[Associate of Daniel]

Just bumping this up, Atticus.

Hopefully others can chime in...

AOD

[Penny Lane]

Hi atticus, I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. It's all very tough stuff with no easy solution. To answer your question, YES this sounds like textbook alienation and it sounds like he's putting the kids in a really awful position. What he's doing is really selfish and terrible. Have you ever read the book Divorce Poison? It's all about alienation and it might help you.

I haven't been in your situation precisely but my DH did have to go back to court with his PDxw recently and I'll share some observations that might apply to your case.

It seemed like in court the judge gave no or almost no credence to DH's observations and concerns. Anything that couldn't be backed up with indisputable facts was basically moot. The frustrating thing was that some of the worst stuff H's ex was doing to the kids, didn't ever make it to court because they were less provable.

In your case a lot of the facts that you can prove don't really help your case. "The kids are more disrespectful when they come back from their dad's house" - you and I know that their dad is almost certainly encouraging that. But the judge could just as easily think, well maybe it's HER fault for not being firm enough.

If I were you I would pick a few of the most concrete examples (not necessarily the worst examples, but the most provable). I really like the one where your son said he was scared to acknowledge you. That to me shows that something alarming is going on. And I think it'd be pretty hard for your ex to twist that into being your fault. The downside, of course, is that it's still a he said-she said and your ex will likely claim that your son didn't say that or that you misunderstood. I also like the one where they try to teach you to parent "like their dad" - that's pretty inappropriate and seems to be coming directly from him/ Do you have other examples where you can prove that the kids are feeling caught in the middle or are hearing negative things about you from their dad? Or maybe emails where he indirectly confirms that he's saying stuff to them. (BM will send emails sometimes where she's like "I've explained to (DSS) that he doesn't have to answer your questions if he doesn't want to and he can always come back to my house" ... in the context she's CLEARLY admitting to trying to alienate him )

I think you could present all this to a custody evaluator and explain that you're concerned that your ex is putting the kids in the middle/discouraging them from having a relationship with you. And then if it seems to be getting traction you could share more. But I wouldn't hang your whole case for why you should have custody on the alienation issue. It's just too squishy to prove and it's the kind of thing that a judge might not take as seriously as they should.

But definitely keep documenting - who knows, he might slip and do something very easily provable. And then I think it'd help to have all your concerns from over the years laid out to show it's a pattern.

[atticusfinch]

Wow-- thanks you two! I agree that the difficulty is exactly as you said, PennyLane-- how does one prove some of these things? I also suspect my ex, for the most part, is covertly alienating them with subtle things that would be hard to prove anyway (when we were married, he didn't have to tell me I was stupid, he'd just have to give me a condescending stare, question me repeatedly like I was a wayward child, etc). But that is excellent advice-- to stick to things that are concrete.

[athene1399]

Atticus,

Unfortunately the courts aren't educated (if that's the correct word) on alienation. SD's law guardian told us what we described sounds like parental alienation, but when we asked our L he said it is near impossible to prove in court so to not bring it up. He said to keep the focus on the kids and what is best for them, how BM's instability affects them, instead of trying to prove BM is  brainwashing SD. The law guardians can noticed if the kids are being coached by a parent. Our L told us not to even talk to SD about the LG. She parroted to the LG every thing BM told her to say. It didn't look good for BM.

What you can do is support your kids emotionally. Let them know you recognize that they are being put in a tough spot. WIth the example of them saying they were afraid to say hi to you: "That must have been tough for you guys not saying hi to me." Or "I'm sorry you were to afraid to say hi. Next time I'll know you wanted to, but couldn't." I think if they feel heard and listened to, that will be huge for them. They probably feel torn right now. They want to make both parents happy and one is being so demanding they are afraid to not do what he wants.

Document everything. Try to keep the conversation with your ex in writing (text/email). IMO it makes it easier. Print up 3 copies when it's time to go to court. We gave the L three years worth of ranting text messages from BM. it was the thickness of an encyclopedia. I think he wanted it just in case. He didn't really refer to it, but it put our minds at ease knowing he wanted it. And all her threats were in there, too.

And don't be afraid to reach out for advice. There were times when we called the L daily  because of BM's threats. We were like "she's saying X.. can she do that?" Because BM would say, "Per my L, I can do this, and you owe me x..." Turns out none of what she claimed her L said was legal. So fact check EVERYTHING your ex tells you because probably most of it isn't true. She was just trying to scare us into doing what she wanted (knowing we didn't want to do anything illegal). And the worst part is legally, no one cared. If we did what she said oh well. Our fault for not verifying her nonsense with our L (you would think a judge would care that she lied about what her L said to get what she wanted. Apparently that is not a big deal in the legal world).

I am really sorry you are going through this. It is so stressful. And it feels like the court system doesn't care. If I think of any other advice, I will let you know. We went through this three years ago, so it's been a while. But this site helped me so much every step of the way. No matter how silly you may think a question is, if it's bothering you then reach out to us. Someone here has been through it . We are here for you.

[Stepping lightly]

Hi Atticus,

We have experienced a lot of the same behaviors, unfortunately, BM convinced professionals that she was in the right to say/do these things with the kids because she was a "protective parent" who has "PTSD" from all of the "abuse" she suffered at the hands of DH.  Oy vey.

I think a lot of what happens depends on the specific professional.  We had a judge that saw it clear as day,  but unfortunately went out on medical leave prior to our custody hearing.  The new judge did not see it, and was wooed by BMs lamenting. 

The kids won't sit with us at any activity, our time or BMs time.  DSS has told us there is an expectation in place, so we don't make it an issue for them.  At least they come say hello to us afterwards on BMs time...or usually do anyway. 
One time DSS stood up to BM when she was saying bad things about DH, and BM told him he was no longer welcome in her house, and she called their T to come pick him up.  We had documentation of that incident.

DSD also comes back saying things that you know she did not think up herself.  Once it was a comment about how I do my hair, and the words she used gave me a shiver because it was not her language.  It's funny, that was years ago...and the other day she commented about how she loved my hair when I used to do it that way!  Even further evidence.

As far as evidence- we had it pictures that showed BM was trying to replace DH with her BF as the kids father figure- these had a large impact  with the initial judge.  We also had a T report stating the things the kids were being told by BM, and that the T did think they alienation was happening (BM made sure that T was out of the picture ASAP after that). 

Had we had our first judge....things would be different..