Where to go from here?/ what obligations do children have to their parents?

[BPDParent1]

A few weeks ago I posted on this site for the first time.  My unBPD father finally made me mad enough to get out of my "appeaser" role and tell him he needed to change his behavior or leave (he chose to leave).  I think he was so shocked that I would actually stick up for myself and my family (DH and 18 month old) that it totally enraged him.  I'm sure many of your understand, but it was SO SO hard for me to stick up for us, being the good, compliant child.  Nevertheless, on the advice of my therapist and members of this board, I fought through the discomfort that followed and didn't respond to his messages telling me "not to feel too bad" and "he's not mad at me" and, most recently "you [me] seemed really tired that night.  You need to not overwork yourself...let the past be the past...bring [baby] to see his grandfather". My brother, who has seen my unBPD father since the incident says that my father in no way feels he did anything wrong and that he's perfectly fine (not lying depressed in a dark room as I picture him, lol).

All that said, I've never gone such a long period of time without speaking to my father and I finally feel like Im coming Out of the FOG!!  The thing is, Ive really started to question what Im gaining from the relationship - it makes me tired to even think about reinitiating contact with him.  My therapist and I have discussed boundary setting and making sure I follow through etc., but it just all seems like a lot of work - for what? If Im honest with myself, the ONLY reason I would have contact with him is out of some sense of duty as his child.  My psychologist says that she considers him to be in the top 10% in terms of severity of BPD based on her experience.  She has also said that she wants me to be aware that, based on what Ive told her, she thinks there's a very high probability that the relationship will need to end.

Now that Im finally gaining some clarity through distancing myself from him, Im worried that if I resume contact it will go away and I'll get sucked back into his games.  It's just been so peaceful without him and I feel like I can see a life that I didn't think was possible and I don't know if its possible with him in it.  But then I feel obligation.  I can also see how he will tell the story - "We got in one fight and then she totally cut me out of her life and took away my grandson whom I adore just to spite me".

Any advice from someone who's been through this would be appreciated.  Thanks!

[SunnyMeadow]

I hope you get many replies from others who have gone through this. I'm interested to hear their experiences too!

I'm a few months out from going NC. (phone and text blocked-email open) Well I was NC but my uNPDm wasn't. I feel like I'm coming Out of the FOG too and it's a wonderful feeling. I see clearly how I kept getting sucked into the drama. After my mom sent me a ridiculously long email of my faults as a non-doting daughter, I replied and blocked. It feels glorious!!

She recently saw something she didn't like on my dd's social media and wrote me a scathing email how we are all out to hurt her. How this thing my dd wrote caused her HEALTH PROBLEMS!!  I debunked her drama filled email and I'm back to NC, not replying to her nonsense. I shared her email with my daughter and dd is shocked how venomous her grandma is. For years I never told my FOC the full extent of my mom's anger whenever she'd blast me with her emails of displeasure.

Like you, I've been questioning what I've gained from my relationship with my mom. I give, she takes and takes. If I'm not giving enough, she gets angry. This isn't a fun relationship. She isn't someone I look forward to seeing. She isn't nice, fun, sweet - she's the exact opposite of that. I've heard on several YouTube videos...if they weren't your parents, if they were acquaintances who treated you like your NPDparent does, would you keep them in your life? Heck no I wouldn't!

After me going NC and feeling the FOG lift, I can't imagine what reinstating contact even looks like. Now that I know her games and see her drama for what it is, how do I take her to lunch now? Can you imagine that first lunch after I blocked her and called her out for the first time in decades?? Oh the tears and sorrow 

In my case I feel stronger as more time goes by without contact. I also feel stronger by learning all I can about narcissism, and personality disorders. Enjoy your drama free FOC!

[coyote]

Dear parent,
It is possibly wise to minimize contact until you develop more skills to deal with his behavior. The Toolbox is best friend to many of us here. So such tools as Medium Chill, setting boundaries, no JADE, no Circular Conversations have been very helpful to me. I hope this helps.

[alphaomega]

Hello and welcome

I'm an only child of NPDM - and you gotta believe us when we tell ya - its ONLY GETS WORSE.

Your situation reminded me of 5 years ago when my M fell and broke her hip, we had been no contact for about 6 weeks.   

I had gotten very upset with her for bragging to anyone that would listen that SHE was paying for my daughter to go to college. 

In truth, SHE had nothing to do with that.  My late father did.  But you best believe she was going to take full credit.

SO - I told her to quit undermining my abilities as a parent.  Because she loved to throw up in DH and my faces how "However would you have afforded to send her THERE if *I* didnt help you ?"

I lost it.  And stopped talking to her. 

SO long story longer, during that hiatus, she fell and broke her hip.  Of course, as next of kin, I was called to the hospital. And being the dutiful daughter I have been programmed to be, I went.

When I walked into the room she whines "OHHHHH I FORGIVVVVVEEEE YOU !!!!!"

I thought DH was going to tackle me because he took one look at my face of rage and thought for sure I was going to hurl myself at her. 

I asked her "Exactly, what in the name of all things holy do you think YOU need to FORGIVE *ME* FOR ?????"

It got weird.  But I placed myself again fully at her disposal when I showed up to the hospital.
I was roped back in hook, line and sinker.

And it almost killed me.

SInce that trauma, we have had several OTHER true health problem scenarios.

I have lessened my contact with every single one of them.

The stress from Her constant health situations are now causing me to have my own.

Wound up in the ER 2 weeks ago with chest pains.  Had a full workup including stress test and look like they are going to have to shoot me on judgement day LOLOL

But the stress of being her daughter has chipped away at my SOUL.

Trust us when we tell you - it aint gonn get any better.

XO AO

[qcdlvl]

While I've not been in your shoes, my fiancée has effectively gone more or less NC with her (suspected NPD) F - she has realized (correctly, IMO) she owes him nothing and will no longer initiate contact, and FIL won't deign initiate contact, either.
My view is that offspring owe abusive or neglectful parents nothing, because such parents did less than it was their duty to do. It sounds like your F has always been emotionally abusive - therefore, IMO you owe him nothing. If you want to go NC, you should do it - it's definitely a legitimate choice in circumstances like these.
There are all sorts of red flags regarding your F and your child - undermining your parenting, making demands for alone time, etc. If you remain in contact, he may try to undermine your child's relationship with you (as a way of getting supply for being ostensibly preferred by the child to the child's mother, or as a way of getting back to you for setting boundaries) - my advice is that if you remain in contact, it's best either to keep your child NC or ensure contact is closely supervised.

[Call Me Cordelia]

I can also see how he will tell the story - "We got in one fight and then she totally cut me out of her life and took away my grandson whom I adore just to spite me".

Oh, he will.

From my uNparents' perspective, that's how it went down with us as well. I called them out on one thing, which they maintain I completely made up anyway, and I never spoke to them again. 

But here's the thing. You know the truth. You know it was the one time you finally gained the strength to speak back to his behavior after a lifetime of abuse. You know that if you go back you'd be in for more of the same and nothing would ever change with him. You even have professional advice backing you up. You know that HIS behavior was WRONG and you deserve respect. And peace. And a real family who cares about you and loves you. And tells the truth.

And for the smear campaign? It will happen regardless. You going back to relationship with him without remorse from him will only serve to reinforce his bad behavior. So he'll feel entitled to make you take the blame for HIS problems. When (not if) he badmouths you to others, it really will only make him look bad. Healthy people will clearly see there's more to the story than that. And wonder what's wrong with HIM that he needs to put you down.

My dad put pretty much that story in writing to someone he hoped would become his flying monkey. That person's response? "Your father takes absolutely no responsibility for any part in your relationship! It blows my mind that he hopes to fix this." THAT is a good friend.  So your dad will do you a favor by showing you who can be trusted to have a brain.

It is so so painful in the meantime. But trust me, it's growing pains. Welcome to life Out of the FOG. 

[WomanInterrupted]

Yup - we only do things to make them miserable and spite them.     And it was only *one* tiny little incident - not their lifetime of abuse, taken as an entire body of work.   

I agree with Coyote - until you establish clear boundaries (the book "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend is excellent), and read the Toolbox enough to become comfortable *doing* your boundaries, minimizing contact is probably for the best. 

I think you'll come to appreciate Medium Chill/Grey Rock - some of the statements are non-inflammatory ways of expressing boundaries:  "I can't do that."  "That doesn't work for me."  "I'll have to check my calendar and get back to you."

Those are the only times you *say* your boundary - when saying NO to a summons or demand.

I was *so* afraid of unBPD Didi that I walked around the house, practicing Medium Chill phrases until they rolled naturally off my lips - I didn't want to choke and have the words stick in my throat.  I practiced listening to my *tone* and keeping it neutral.  I did mirror work, noting how a pleasant but neutral expression felt, so I could correct it if I felt any change.

I was *not* a natural at Medium Chill - at first.  But the first time a 2+ hour (a day!) mind-numbing rant about her health, who done her wrong this time, and all her other complaints ended in less than *five minutes* (and she slammed the phone down on me), I was like, "Oh my God...you mean that WORKED!?!?"   

So I kept at it, and pretty soon, anything she threw at me was easily batted away - and I began contacting her less and less, *detaching* from her, as I should have decades ago.

But yes, it does feel like you're doing something wrong, especially if they put on The Nice Act, and you begin to wonder if it's you.  It's NOT, and it's just that:  an ACT, they can't keep up.

Alphaomega is right - it really only does get WORSE, especially when they sense us detaching, or they start ageing - the PD starts running the show, and then baby, you ain't seen *nothin* yet! 

You're *wise* to wonder what you're getting out of this relationship.  From where I sit, you get nothing, and he gets everything, but thinks he's getting nothing, so he keeps demanding MORE and MORE.

Your father, like unBPD Didi, is a massive black hole of never-ending need.  It can never be appeased or satisfied for more than five minutes before finding fault with that appeasement, which means we need to find something else to appease them - and it never ends or stops, until *we* make it stop by establishing boundaries, lowering contact, or even going No Contact, which I suspect may be in the cards for you, as it's the *healthiest* option for you, your son and your DH.

IIRC, you said your father has driven away pretty much everybody, so I have to wonder WHO he's going to smear you to!   

Here's the thing with the smear campaign:  smart people are going to figure it out pretty quickly when he won't stop carping about the same damned thing, over and over and over again.  If he won't stop saying nasty things about you to others, others are going to wonder why he hasn't figured out that you don't want to be around somebody like that, because if he's that bad, talking *about* you, what's he like when he's talking TO you?

Or in his case, AT you? 

If you keep at it, I *promise* it gets easier and you'll start gaining *confidence* in knowing you're doing the right things to protect you and your FOC.   

Boundaries and Medium Chill keep getting easier and start becoming natural things - which will only make your father's dysfunctional words and behavior even more glaringly obvious.

Once you *really* start seeing what's going on, that may be when you'll want to consider your T's wise words about ending the relationship - only I wouldn't do a slow-fade, unless you want him to up his game to an entirely new level you didn't even know exists!   

Yeah - I thought unBPD Didi didn't notice I wasn't calling every day.  God, I can be so THICK at times! 

They *notice* - because they've driven everybody else away, so they tend to clutch onto us even more tightly.

But you have to do what's best for YOU, especially if it means prying him off you, one finger at a time.   

One day, you'll start to notice something weird:  you haven't talked to your dad in a month, and you've been HAPPY - and really don't relish the idea of talking to him, any time soon.

Then you might think, "I don't have to, if I don't want to."   

You'll be right - you don't HAVE to do anything, when it comes to your dad.   

He's an adult - he can take care of himself.  You owe him *nothing.*

But you owe yourself and your FOC *everything.* 

You CAN do this!   

[lotusblume]

So I've taken a mini break from reading only "toxic parents" style books and picked up "living on your own terms: what is real rebellion?" by Osho. It's a more spiritual type of book. It has a chapter on "what do we owe our parents?" which some of you might enjoy. I'll quote from the book, p138-139:

"Gautam Buddha's father was very old and he had only one son... His whole life he had waited...and had done all kinds of religious rituals so that he could have a son, because who was going to look after his great kingdom? And then one day the son disappeared from the palace. Do you think he was happy? He was so angry, violently angry, he would have killed Gautam Buddha if he had found him! His police, his detectives were searching all over the kingdom. "Where is he hiding? Bring him to me!"" - Osho, p. 138-139

To paraphrase, Buddha leaves for 12 years, comes back enlightened, and his father is furious. He shouts at Buddha, calls him a disgrace, and verbally abuses him. Buddha stays super zen as his father rages and cries, and then says, "I ask for only one favor. Please wipe your tears and look at me- I am not the same person who left home. I am totally transformed, but your eyes are so full of tears you cannot see. You are still talking to somebody who is no more! He has died." (P139)

Osho continues to tell the story, how his father accuses his son of trying to teach him, thinking he is a fool. The father says, "can't I recognize my own son? My blood is running in your veins, and I cannot recognize you?" (P139-140)

Now here comes my favourite part, Buddha's reply:

"Please don't misunderstand me. The body certainly belongs to you, but not my consciousness. And my consciousness, not my body, is my reality. You are right that your father was an emperor, and his father too, but as far as I know about myself I was a beggar in my past life and I was a beggar in a previous life, too, because I have been searching for truth. My body has come through you, but you have been just like a passage. You have not created me; you have been a medium, and my consciousness has nothing to do with your consciousness." (P140)

BAM! Buddha's got some great boundaries.

The rest of the chapter provides some great advice by Osho, about our parents having expectations and disappointments, but that you should not "become guilty because of it, otherwise they will destroy your joy, your silence, your growth. You remain undisturbed, unworried. Don't feel any guilt. Your life is yours and you have to live according to your own light." (P140-141)

I found this to be very helpful in putting moments of FOG into perspective.

[SunnyMeadow]

The rest of the chapter provides some great advice by Osho, about our parents having expectations and disappointments, but that you should not "become guilty because of it, otherwise they will destroy your joy, your silence, your growth. You remain undisturbed, unworried. Don't feel any guilt. Your life is yours and you have to live according to your own light." (P140-141)

Lotusblume, I read this yesterday and keep thinking about it. The Buddha story and Osho advice really touched me and makes me feel more calm.

I've never heard of Osho and need to read this book! Thanks for sharing!

[freedfromchaos]

  Hi, BPDparent1. I was also the good and compliant child. I also felt obligated.  My NPD father and BPD mother each had extreme expectations that I 'should' give them an impossibly high level of  'good care' in their old age while I meekly tolerated any nasty behavior they dished out. They wanted a slave.
  It took many years of great abuse from them to finally asked myself at what point is it ok to say "ENOUGH". How much abuse and pain did I need to suffer before it was ok to stop.  Just stop and admitted that they are not loving, good parents. To acknowledge that they truly do not give a damn about me and all I ever was to them was a servant to met their needs. That all there is or ever will be is suffering with them. To see that I had NO obligation to people who treat me as they had.
I also feared being sucked back in. I found that as I acknowledged to myself each time they behaved badly I was able to reset my line in what I was willing to tolerate from them. What I once quietly tolerated was no longer acceptable.  I set boundaries. I said "no". I walked away when I asked them to stop a behavior and they persisted. As I stood up for myself I got stronger. The more distance I put between them and myself the more clearly I saw how bad it had been. I realized what I want matters.  Unfortunately the more control they lost over me  the worse they behaved. They tried just what your father is doing with you now- being nice but taking no responsibility for his own behavior. Then they took more desperate and punishing actions. It got very bad. I have no relationship with my father and had very limited relationship with my late mother. I has been a long journey, but one of sweet freedom.  I wish you peace, freedom, and love, BPDparent1.

[daughter]

I'm NC now for several years, the FOO Family doormat/SG.  I was NBM's and enNF's intended eldercare plan:  that's what daughters are for.  Me, I was the parentified child.  Me, not my only sibling, GC "princess" nsis.  Nope, just me, told that I "had no right to have issues", that I was "emotionally-strong enough to endure (their) cruelty".  I was Dutiful Daughter, obliging, obedient, enabling, enmeshed and THERE.  My parents justified their obvious bad behavior:  1) "it is what it is, we are who we are, and it/we will never change"; and 2) "we can say and do whatever we want; we're the parents".  No "love" expressed: for me, it was a "we say, and you jump to it" constant message.

My ever-tolerant DH finally asked me, in mid FOO Family party, that we no longer socialize with my parents and nsis' family.  It was long overdue.  I needed his nudge, to reject my parents' expectations and demands.  I didn't need to comply, I wasn't obligated to self-sacrifice myself to appease my parents..  If my parents had been "good parents", I'd been able to handle their deteriorating mood in their elder years.  But this wasn't my situation.  As adults, our relationship with our parents must have mutual respect and comparable empathy to "work", otherwise it's just a master-servant relationship of convenience.  Whether your relationship with your father merits your continued active participation, or some lesser degree of contact, that's for you to determine.  But realize that if you distance yourself, that vacuum gets filled, our parents survive without our service, without privilege of our presence.  Old people without children still manage their affairs.  Our difficult parents will still survive without our dutiful daughter attention and free labor.

[Duck]

Regarding your question about what children owe parents, I have spent countless hours coming up with my answer. Children do not owe anything to their parents. Children do not choose to be born and they don't choose their parents. Their births and childhoods are all the result of parents' choices and nothing to do with their choices. People seem to imagine that children sign a contract from another world agreeing to life with their parents in exchange for eternal servitude, but they don't. I had nothing to do with my parents' decision to have sex or seek fertility treatment. It was their thing, their project. Child/parent is basically a non-consensual relationship when you look at it closely.

When a child reaches 18, they can decide whether or not to have a relationship with their parents. Some parents were not abusive. Some people end up with healthy adult child/adult parent friendships complete with appropriate boundaries. But if your choice is not to have a relationship at all, that is your right. It is your life. At this point, you and your family of choice are your most important considerations. Negative impact to your family of choice may weigh heavily in your decision making.

[JustKat]

Hi BPDparent,

To answer your original question (What obligations do children have to their parents?) I would answer NONE. When they made the decision to scapegoat us, abuse us, and emotionally damage us, any obligation went out the window. My feeling is if you want your children to care for you as you age, you have to take care of THEM first. When my parents decided to have children they were legally obligated to take proper care of me. They didn't. So why should I (or any of us) feel obligated to love and care for them when they never loved or cared for us.

As others have said, they WILL try to suck you back in, maybe because they realize that they're going to grow old without you, but there are consequences to one's actions and they should have thought about that when they were harming us. When I first went NC I never resumed contact with my NPDmother, but was drawn back in a few times by my enFather. Like you, my therapist told me the relationship needed to end for the sake of my own health, so I've now walked away for good. He still sends hoovering cards and letters all the time, and it IS exhausting, but like you, I am also feeling more peace in my life with him gone from it.

Being away from them also allows time to reflect on their past behavior and talk to others on sites like these. That has really helped me to come Out of the FOG and validate my decision to go NC.

I would say that your only obligation at this point is to yourself and your own well being, and to caring for your FOC. Things may get worse in that the hoovering attempts will increase, but it will get better for you as your emotional and physical well-being begins to improve. It sounds like you're already feeling the freedom to enjoy a new life which os GREAT. Hang in there and stay strong as you continue your journey of finding peace.

[BPDParent1]

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses - I can't tell you how nice it is to find people that actually know what Im talking about!! (although you probably know : ) ).  It's so nice to hear from people on the same journey - so much great advice. 

I have still yet to speak with my father.  At this point, I can't even imagine how he's going to act if/when I do - I imagine there are going to be some serious guilt tripping attempts about what a horrible daughter I am for not speaking to her father and withholding "his" grandson from him.   He has continued on with his blaming - telling my sister that my husband and I are "ridiculous" and in the same message telling her that she's his new "confident".  She was very little when my parents divorced, so she doesn't have the same relationship/issues with him - she's told me that she just considers him a really annoying person she had to see occasionally.  Her response to that (to me) was "Ew, Im not doing that." . If only it were that easy for me!!!

In working with my therapist, we've both come to the conclusion that I will likely need to try setting boundaries with him before cutting off contact.  I can tell she doesn't think it will work, lol, but we both think it's something that I need to do.  That being said, whenever I think of actually inviting him back into my life I have a horrible sense of dread.  I am also trying EMDR.  We'll see!  Life IS so much better without him though....

[all4peace]

Lotusblume, thank you for sharing that excerpt from your book! It's incredible!

I was listening to a podcast from a Christian and Jewish perspective, and the topic was "honoring father and mother." The podcaster opined that we CAN honor our father and mother for what they have given us: Life. And he also strongly believed that abuse and neglect negated obligations on our part from offering more than we could safely offer.

I have a minister whose father abused and abandoned her. She says she will make sure he is cared for in old age. She calls and receives his calls a few times per year. She is basically VLC and MC with him, loves him and his soul and does not open her heart to him or plan to leave her ministry to care for him in his old years. This is how she sees "honoring father".

For me, I see it as caring for their souls, letting go of the bitterness I had towards them, letting go of any expectations I had of them, seeing them as the wounded humans they are.....AND honoring myself by finding the level and type of contact that is manageable for my own health and relationships. At this point that is VLC and I can live with that without fear, anger or guilt.

[lotusblume]

You're welcome all4peace . I thought it was a great story. If Buddha would have stayed stuck under his controlling father's thumb, the world would be a different place. I find being Out of the FOG helps us to reach our true potential. I've been starting projects and doing things I never thought I could now that I'm no longer confined to the image my parents and FOO expected me to be.

Kris Godinez often quotes another passage from the Bible when the "honor thy mother and father" is used to whitewash abuse. "Do not bring your children to anger"

Sending you encouragement on your journey!