I'll give you independence!

Started by Whiteheron, April 27, 2019, 06:29:13 AM

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Whiteheron

The kids have been with stbx all week, visiting IL's. They both received some cash from MIL, which is typical. With mother's day and father's day coming up, DD12 has expressed to me (over the phone), that she's feeling liks she wants to be dropped off at a small shopping center to go shipping for gifts. She was telling me she didn't know why she was feeling like she needed to be independent, but she was and wanted to talk to me about it.

I encouraged her, told her we would find opportunities for her to be more independent. One thing on the list is she wants to learn how to cook, so I told her when I have her next weekend we would look through some cookbooks, find a few recipes, shop for the ingredients and get her going. I also offered to take her and a friend, if she wanted, over to the shopping center, I would hang outside at the coffee shop while the two of them went on their way. I also told her she was only a year or two from going to hang out at the mall with her friends, so let's get her comfortable. I think she left the conversation feeling good.

A day later, she calls and is very upset. She tried to describe her feelings of wanting to be independent to her dad. His response? To tell her that when they got back home, he would take both her and DS to the shopping center and will drop them off with their bank cards. She's in a panic because neither she nor DS know how to use their bank cards. stbx got these for them and never showed them how the cards work. She tells me she's just going to have to hand the card over at the register and ask them to do it for her. This sends her into a panic because she's so shy. She's terrified. She told stbx that she wanted to use the cash that grandma had given her, but he forbids her from using it, told her she must use her card.

So instead of helping, teaching, guiding the kids, his ego must be so bruised by DD's wanting to grow up, that instead he's just going to throw her off the deep end, so to speak. This is so typical for him. I always wondered how he would handle it when he was no longer the center of her universe...my guess is this is just the beginning, that it will only get worse from here.

She was fighting tears over the phone. I am so heartbroken for her. All I can do from my end is be supportive and help her when I can. To hear the panic and hurt in her voice was heartbreaking. Why does he have to be this way? It's his "I'll show you!" attitude coming through - you think you want to be independent, I'll give you independence! I'll show you that you can't do it on your own! who are you to think you can do it without me!? you need me! - much like he tried to train me over our 20+ years together.  :(

You can't destroy me if I don't care.

Being able to survive it doesn't mean it was ever ok.

Penny Lane

It's funny, DSS11 this week also has been talking about wanting more independence as well. I'm not quite sure to make of it but he and I had a fairly similar conversation to you and your DD. It coincided with BM doing a total 180, going from a totally neglectful phase to being EXTREMELY ACTIVE IN THEIR LIVES with a heavy dose of alienation to go with it. So I thought maybe it had something to do with that. Either way, we're hoping to use it to encourage him to be independent in healthy ways, just like you did with your daughter.

The kids came back to our house super stressed. The first or second day back DSS announced that he wants to move out, he thinks he's old enough to take care of himself. Not move out of our house to BM's house, move out on his own. DH and I were sort of at a loss, he didn't seem mad just certain that he's old enough to be an adult. (Maybe this is a normal preteen thing?) Finally I explained that you can't really move out as a kid unless things are so bad that you don't really have a family anymore. He said that's not what he wants - he just wants to live in a different house, but maybe next door to us.

The reason your post reminded me of all this is where we ended up in the conversation is that he eventually conceded that maybe he just wants some more independence (this has been a common theme for him for a couple years). Just like you did we came up with the idea of learning more about cooking, and we offered to get started on teaching him to make more recipes on his own. We also talked about fixing up a room that's not currently being used on a different floor of the house to be his bedroom. Then as he enters his teenage years he could get a little space from us without feeling like he needs to be in a whole different house. I think we ended up in a good place but pretty soon he went back to BM's house so he's likely getting another barrage of alienation.

BM seems to swing wildly with issues of DSS's independence. One day he's not even allowed to cross the (very low traffic neighborhood) street by himself, the next he's telling us he's supposed to walk the dog all the way across a major intersection each day.

Navigating these tough preteen issues is hard enough without a PD in the mix! There's no reason to do the bank card thing other than to control your DD (and punish her for wanting to be independent). I really hope that DSS's talk about emancipation is more about normal pulling away from his family and less about BM trying to manipulate him. But it's hard to be optimistic about that. Good luck, I hope everything goes OK for your DD.

athene1399

WH,

I am so sorry stbx is such a jerk! It's exactly what you said: You want independence? I'll show you independence. Like trying to scar her for life so she'll never ask for anything  again.  :-\

Would it be inappropriate if you suggest to DD that she just discuss stuff like this with you? I don't know how to really bridge the topic. But maybe discuss how stbx sometimes means well, thinks he's helping when he isn't. So you're not calling him a jerk, but saying he isn't doing it to be nasty (though he is). Or maybe suggest she try bigger things with you (like going to the mall) and smaller things with dad (like things where the repercussions won't be evil).

At least she knows she can rely on you and tell you about these things. Maybe she'll learn on her own not to tell him this stuff. Which really sucks.

And Penny, I'm chuckling a bit just picturing DSS11 saying he wants to get his own place. I'm glad you could get him to compromise with the cooking. I do wonder if BM said something or if he came up with this on his own.  But it looks like it led to a good conversation with more responsibilities for him, so it worked out regardless of what started it.

11JB68

Sounds very familiar.
I feel like its  mostly about control.
UPDh also would go from extreme to extreme...holding ds hand in parking lots, but then insisting that I needed to start treating him like an adult (meanwhile I was the one teaching him life skills).
I wonder if he wants her to use the card so he can see what she bought and where... ??
What if she used the card to get cash from the atm...and spends that cash..there must be an atm at the mall...And if you don't have a chance to teach her how to withdraw cash, someone at the bank will do it if she's able to ask.

Whiteheron

Update: stbx tried to take her shopping and she refused to go. Instead, I will take her when she's ready.

11JB68 - DD was telling me about these cards stbx insists they use whenever they want to buy something - they're prepaid, but every time they try to make a purchase, he is notified and has to "approve", otherwise the card is declined. I'd never heard of these before, but I'm not surprised this is what he got for them. He has to know everything.

athene- I'm trying to let the kids learn for themselves what they can and can't say to stbx. That may sound a little harsh - but with all of the accusations of alienation going on, I don't want to suggest she not talk to her dad about certain topics. She knows most topics are off limits with him, but I guess she was feeling empowered after she spoke with me? idk.

pennylane - I think it's a great idea to show him how to cook and to fix up a little room for him. That's awesome.
stbx also swings back and forth on the kids' allowed independence. I've noticed it fluctuates based on his needs/wants and what's most convenient for him, not what makes sense for the kids.
You can't destroy me if I don't care.

Being able to survive it doesn't mean it was ever ok.

11JB68


Penny Lane

#6
Yikes! So he's trying to force your DD to use a bank card, but he can withdraw her access at any time by refusing the purchase? That's a ridiculous control move and a great way to insert even more uncertainty into the process for her. I'm glad your DD was able to avoid the whole thing.

Quote from: Whiteheron on May 02, 2019, 11:37:57 AM
I've noticed it fluctuates based on his needs/wants and what's most convenient for him, not what makes sense for the kids.

Yes! You've put your finger on what bugs me about it. Not letting them cross the street = she gets to control his movements. Having him walk waaay far with the dog = she doesn't want to take care of the dog so DSS has to do it.

It also fluctuates greatly based on whether she has a boyfriend. Boyfriend = more independence for the kids because she's focused on the bf so they have to fend for themselves. No boyfriend = no independence because she needs that supply from them. How confusing for the kids! DSS is at such a critical time for developing his independence skills too, and so is your DD.

DSS seems to have really calmed down on the independence thing. Next time he came back to our house he had decided he's probably not going to want a bedroom on another floor until he's an older teen. I told him since we're fixing up the room this summer he can still help pick out paint colors and stuff with the idea that it'll eventually be his room.

Now he's on a mission to get his own cell phone and/or a tv in his room. But that's a whole other (peer pressure-fueled) issue. ::)

sevenyears

wow - no  wonder your daughter was scared. Not only does she have to get the items, check out and pay, but she has to get approval for each payment?! While there might be some utility in such cards - so much of that depends on context. Needing approval from someone who has control issues, ugghh.... not good. What was good: your daughter was able to avoid that by not going.

Liftedfog

We married twins.  It's all about the control.  Even down to the 20 years of marriage.  My ex is not involved in my kids lives.  He refuses supervised access and last had a visit in 2014.   I'm secretly enjoying the peace although it hurts a lot to see my kids reach their milestones without their dad.   It really hurts.    And then I read posts about how the control and abuse does spread to any children in the marriage.   I'm sorry you are having go through this and not shield your kids completely.  The system is so broken. I have no words just sending you a big hug. 

athene1399

WH,

i don't think that sounds harsh at all. I totally get it. I'm glad she refused to go shopping with him. I hope he didn't take it out on her though.